TV licence

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Catherine Flick

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Aug 28, 2011, 3:46:54 PM8/28/11
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Hey all,

Does the Hackspace have a TV licence? Some people on IRC are interested in coming together to watch Formula 1 races and so we were wondering if that'd be possible :-) We don't want the hackspace getting into trouble after all!

Cheers,
Catie

Russ Garrett

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Aug 28, 2011, 8:13:52 PM8/28/11
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We don't. Should we get one? I'm happy paying adding the £13/month to
our budget if people actually use it.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

amx109

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Aug 28, 2011, 8:23:05 PM8/28/11
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i think it might be worth it. apparently, not connecting your laptop to a power supply makes it legal to watch live broadcasts (effectively a mobile tv). i dont think this has been tested in a court setting though

Catherine and i would like to host a F1 filled afternoon in two sunday's time - a bit of talk on F1 tech and the Monza F1 GP. it would be nice to be able to plug our laptops in ;)

i know others on IRC have mentioned they occasionally watch live broadcasts of BBC et al - the riots were one of those occasions. something tells me that most people probably dont realise we're not covered for live tv in the space either.

Amran

Martin

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Aug 29, 2011, 1:39:42 PM8/29/11
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we could probably get away with it if it were just a few people streaming the news, if we wanna host a day of watching live tv and stick it on the calender then it might be a bit more problematic. Also, if we unplug the laptop and connect it to a projector, then it no longer counts as mobile tv and therefore we need a tv license (i could be wrong on that but seems logical).  I've no objection to getting a tv license though, would probably safeguard against those evil tv detector vans and thier less imaginary cousins santa clause and the tooth fairy :P

Cepmender

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Aug 29, 2011, 5:14:25 PM8/29/11
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Below details from TV licencing Website

Watching TV on the internet
You need to be covered by a licence if you watch TV online at the same time as it's being broadcast on conventional TV in the UK or the Channel Islands.
Video recorders and digital recorders like Sky+
You need a licence if you record TV as it's broadcast, whether that's on a conventional video recorder or digital box.
Mobile phones
A licence covers you to watch TV as it's broadcast on a mobile phone, whether you're at home or out and about.

You need one TV Licence to cover all TVs used at a single club or community group site. This won’t cover residential accommodation, other separate clubs or groups and other businesses or organisations within your premises.



STUDENTS don’t need a TV Licence

IF you don’t watch or record television programmes as they’re being shown on TV – on any device

IF you don’t watch or record television programmes, or you only stream TV programmes online after they’ve been broadcast – through on-demand services like YouTube, BBC iPlayer and 4oD – you don’t need to be covered by a TV Licence.

Or all of these are true
Your out-of-term address is covered by a  TV Licence
AND you only use TV receiving equipment that is powered solely by its own internal batteries
AND you have not connected it to an aerial or plugged it into the mains.Your parents' TV Licence will not cover you while you are away at university unless you only use a device that's powered solely by its own internal batteries. You must not plug it into the mains when using it to receive TV.


The "internal battery power" option is only for students who have a licence at home, when the rules were made it was nearly impossible to exercise this right, although technology has improved since!


So it would seem that the practical  options are limited to...

Watching after the broadcast (Iplayer etc.)

Watching Live in a pub

Paying £150 for something we might use a few times a year

or, if there are any members that are over seventy five they can have a licence for free and we can watch over their shoulder.... 


IMHO a TV licence is a waste of the space`s money and will have very little use.

Phil



--- On Mon, 29/8/11, amx109 <amx...@gmail.com> wrote:

offgridnick

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Aug 29, 2011, 5:24:29 PM8/29/11
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We should refuse on principle to buy a TV license from the corrupt,
bloated lickspittle BBC, with its massive pay bill for senior
managers, and shrinking programming budget. This is not negotiable

Paul Dart

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Aug 29, 2011, 5:47:13 PM8/29/11
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On 29 August 2011 22:24, offgridnick <nick...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We should refuse on principle to buy a TV license from the corrupt,
> bloated lickspittle BBC, with its massive pay bill for senior
> managers, and shrinking programming budget.

TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

> This is not negotiable

Bwahaha! You must either be very new to hackspace, in which case
wecome! hi!, or a troll.

Endless negotiation^Wdicussion that has no outcome, is the hackspace way!

For the record I think it would be nice to have a TV licence. I like
having something like a rolling news channel on in the corner and it
could be good for science events/programming.

And it's really not /that/ expensive. Less than 1 members subscription/month!

Paul

Martin Klang

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Aug 30, 2011, 5:32:45 AM8/30/11
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On 29 Aug 2011, at 22:47, Paul Dart wrote:

> 1 members subscription/month!

1 subscription fee wasted.

> For the record I think it would be nice to have a TV licence.

start a pledge.

/m

Russ Garrett

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Aug 30, 2011, 5:36:40 AM8/30/11
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On 30 August 2011 10:32, Martin Klang <ma...@pingdynasty.com> wrote:
> start a pledge.

This is a recurring infrastructure cost and so isn't really suitable
for pledges. I am more than happy to pay it from Hackspace funds if it
gets used sufficiently.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

tom

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Aug 30, 2011, 5:53:40 AM8/30/11
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I'm against TV's in the space (unless theyre being used to generate
sparks..), i come up here to get away from the idiot box!!

On Aug 30, 10:36 am, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30 August 2011 10:32, Martin Klang <m...@pingdynasty.com> wrote:
>
> > start a pledge.
>
> This is a recurring infrastructure cost and so isn't really suitable
> for pledges. I am more than happy to pay it from Hackspace funds if it
> gets used sufficiently.
>
> --
> Russ Garrett
> r...@garrett.co.uk

Simon Howes

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Aug 30, 2011, 5:57:23 AM8/30/11
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I second this
Tvs are really distracting - the constant motion drawing your eye to the screen and blotting out all conscious thought. And the booming voice-frequency bass when its on but out of earshot.

Are we a hackspace or someones bedroom?
Leave the tvs at home

Mark Steward

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Aug 30, 2011, 6:02:26 AM8/30/11
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The point of this is *not* to set up a TV room in the space. We already have enough dorm features as it is.  People are already using Lovelace to watch live TV/news occasionally, and we'd like the chance to watch the odd show (the discussion that started it was F1) legally.

If we don't have a licence, we need to make it clearer that the space isn't covered, and people can only watch catch-up, or if they keep their laptops on battery.


Mark

Catherine Flick

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Aug 30, 2011, 6:02:43 AM8/30/11
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Noone is saying that any TV will be on all the time. The only thing this is likely to be used for is irregular, planned events, or when there are riots on outside. It's just to cover the Hackspace's butt for stuff that's already being done. 
Catie

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 6:57:52 AM8/30/11
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Does this mean I can turn it off if someone is watching it at other times?

Luke

Mark Steward

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:04:01 AM8/30/11
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There is no TV!  This is no different to people listening to stuff on their laptops, and will be done under sufferance.  It's just going to be legal now (modulo any PRS stuff, which we're still discussing).


Mark

Richard Fine

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:08:22 AM8/30/11
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On 8/30/2011 10:57 AM, Simon Howes wrote:
> Tvs are really distracting - the constant motion drawing your eye to the screen
> and blotting out all conscious thought. And the booming voice-frequency bass
> when its on but out of earshot.

Isn't it already a problem that sometimes there are things happening in
the space that are distracting?

Is there any reason to think that the way such problems are presently
dealt with (e.g. talking to the people involved and asking them to be
quieter, move further away, arrange to come back when they're gone, etc)
wouldn't continue to work for a TV?

- Richard

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:17:00 AM8/30/11
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There was a suggestion to put an effectively permanently-on tv in a
corner, actually.

Luke

Mark Steward

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:18:26 AM8/30/11
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I think that would be an awful idea, for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Mark

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:21:00 AM8/30/11
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Sure, but watching tv is easy to do elsewhere and is not hacking.

Why not watch the F1 at the pub or at someones house? I don't see why
hackspace should spend money on this.

Luke

Richard Fine

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:23:51 AM8/30/11
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On 8/30/2011 12:21 PM, spooq wrote:
> Sure, but watching tv is easy to do elsewhere and is not hacking.

Yeah, but that's a different argument. I'm just pointing out that the
argument of 'it'll be really distracting' doesn't seem to hold much
water. That's not to say there aren't other reasons for/against having a TV.

- Richard

Monty

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:30:37 AM8/30/11
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On Aug 30, 12:21 pm, spooq <spo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure, but watching tv is easy to do elsewhere and is not hacking.

Can't the same be said for people setting up radio receivers in the
space?

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:32:56 AM8/30/11
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I don't recall a TV license requiring an exam on how to use it ;)

If you are talking about an FM radio which plays music, then I agree
with that, actually.

Luke

Monty

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:35:31 AM8/30/11
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On Aug 30, 12:32 pm, spooq <spo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't recall a TV license requiring an exam on how to use it ;)
>
> If you are talking about an FM radio which plays music, then I agree
> with that, actually.
>
> Luke
>

I don't recall needing a radio license to receive.

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:35:50 AM8/30/11
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Ok, I think we need to make it really clear if we are talking about a
TV or a TV license.

Catherine asked about a license. In my mind, this falls into the same
category as an alcohol license... it isn't something I think hackspace
should do, but lots of members disagree with me, so that is fine.

Then Paul mentioned an actual TV to go with that. This is completely
different to a group watching an event on laptop, because the laptop
will go away with the group. I would not like to see a regular TV in
the space at all.

Luke

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:36:52 AM8/30/11
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Fair enough, I don't have one so I don't know the details.

Luke

Paul Dart

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Aug 30, 2011, 8:02:19 AM8/30/11
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On 30 August 2011 12:35, spooq <spo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then Paul mentioned an actual TV to go with that. This is completely
> different to a group watching an event on laptop, because the laptop
> will go away with the group. I would not like to see a regular TV in
> the space at all.
>
> Luke

I don't think I did... *shrug* :)

There isn't a currently working TV in the space (afaik) and I don't
particularly think we should get one.
But, for the sake of £13/month I think it's nice to have the option to
watch TV if you want to.

Personally I sometimes work with a youtube video/grooveshark/iplayer
on half the screen and something else on the other.

No one says the sound has to be turned up. One of the reasons 24hour
news channels are popular in company receptions is that you can turn
the volume down, and glance at the screen and read what they are
talking about. Or just use headphones.

If we are going down the 'but I don't want it and the noise might
disturb me' route surely most of the equipment in the workshop should
go?
Lovelace appears to have spotify or something on it and the music on
there, I would argue, is no more or less intrusive than TV noise. The
same social solution to the problem is to ask the person nicely to
turn it down if they wouldn't mind that would be awfully kind thank
you sir...

But then I forget that everything has to be debated at great length on
the mailing list. It's almost like we are trying to emulate some
bloated lickspittle organisation, with massive power for directors,
and shrinking equipment budget. ;)

Paul

Alec Wright

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Aug 30, 2011, 8:12:07 AM8/30/11
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On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 13:02 +0100, Paul Dart wrote:
> There isn't a currently working TV in the space (afaik) and I don't
> particularly think we should get one.
> But, for the sake of £13/month I think it's nice to have the option to
> watch TV if you want to.
>
> Personally I sometimes work with a youtube video/grooveshark/iplayer
> on half the screen and something else on the other.
>
> No one says the sound has to be turned up. One of the reasons 24hour
> news channels are popular in company receptions is that you can turn
> the volume down, and glance at the screen and read what they are
> talking about. Or just use headphones.
>
> If we are going down the 'but I don't want it and the noise might
> disturb me' route surely most of the equipment in the workshop should
> go?
> Lovelace appears to have spotify or something on it and the music on
> there, I would argue, is no more or less intrusive than TV noise. The
> same social solution to the problem is to ask the person nicely to
> turn it down if they wouldn't mind that would be awfully kind thank
> you sir...
>
I'd much rather lovelace didn't have spotify and that people didn't play
their music out loud through the speakers. If you want to listen to
music on your laptop with headphones plugged in, fine. Similarly, I
wouldn't mind us getting a TV licence (aside from the fact that I think
its a waste of money) provided that we agree that it will only be used
either muted or with headphones.
signature.asc

Mike

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Aug 30, 2011, 9:22:33 AM8/30/11
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On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 08:46:54PM +0100, Catherine Flick wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Does the Hackspace have a TV licence? Some people on IRC are interested in
> coming together to watch Formula 1 races and so we were wondering if that'd
> be possible :-) We don't want the hackspace getting into trouble after all!
>

Does this mean that we'll be getting a Sky subscription too?

Mike.

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Catherine Flick

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Aug 30, 2011, 9:29:49 AM8/30/11
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On 30 August 2011 14:22, Mike <hack...@norgie.net> wrote:

Does this mean that we'll be getting a Sky subscription too?


No. 

Paul Dart

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Aug 30, 2011, 9:33:37 AM8/30/11
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Perhaps FreeSat would be interesting to look into? I can't have a
satellite dish where I am (rented accommodation etc). Occasionally
there are programs on weird channels I wouldn't mind catching. It
would appear to fit the hackspace ethos of 'this is something I can't
have at home, but would be nice to have a play with occasionally'.

Kettle of fish re: dish location etc etc. But may be worth
considering/discussing... (throw in grenade, run!)

Paul

spooq

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Aug 30, 2011, 11:14:52 AM8/30/11
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On 30 August 2011 13:02, Paul Dart <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 August 2011 12:35, spooq <spo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Then Paul mentioned an actual TV to go with that. This is completely
>> different to a group watching an event on laptop, because the laptop
>> will go away with the group. I would not like to see a regular TV in
>> the space at all.
>>
>> Luke
>
> I don't think I did... *shrug* :)

Sorry, must be my mistake :)

Luke

Billy

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Aug 30, 2011, 11:17:25 AM8/30/11
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Having a TV at the space, becomes a good reason for people to make TV-
B-Gones...

Joking aside, my £0.02, TV licence, yes. Avoids hassles. TV, no. We
don't need.


On Aug 30, 2:33 pm, Paul Dart <pauld...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 August 2011 14:29, Catherine Flick <lie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

Tweaker

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Aug 30, 2011, 11:37:51 AM8/30/11
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My twopence worth of info:

I suggesting reading this book:Remotely controlled by Prof.Aric Sigman
And then continue the debate on whether TV or not in the Space...

With Best of Intent,as per usual,

Tom

PS. I got a copy of it.
D.S.
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Billy

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Aug 30, 2011, 11:56:49 AM8/30/11
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Yus. Is kind of why i don't own a tv. Annoying distraction.

I get more done without it.

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Aug 30, 2011, 7:17:46 PM8/30/11
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Not since 1971....


--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Andrew Black

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Aug 31, 2011, 5:15:01 AM8/31/11
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I am not in favour of this. I am very sensitive to distractions, both visual and aural.    Ok a lot of activity such as worshop stuff makes noise, but as that is part of the "core business" of the hackspace I tolerate it (and it if is too bad I go somewhere else). 

On related subject, I find people playing music on speakers distracts me which gets in the way of me getting on with software projects that I come to the hackspace for.  I can't see that mass viewing of sporting events is really something we want to get into.

Catherine Flick

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Aug 31, 2011, 5:28:27 AM8/31/11
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Once again, it's NOT a TV we're considering getting in the space, it's a TV licence, so that for planned events and emergencies we can watch live broadcasts. There is NOT going to be a TV on all the time anywhere in the space, and I personally will go and switch such a thing off and hurl it from the balcony if it ever became the case [1]. 

Debate about sporting events should be kept separate from the issue of the licence. If you have an issue with a couple of hours on the 11th of September being used to discuss motorsport and watch a race, you can discuss that on the appropriate thread. 

Sorry for the frustrated response, but this seems to be turning into a massive straw-man argument fest, which isn't very conducive to getting things done. 

Thanks,
Catie

[1] okay I'd probably ask first. 

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 31, 2011, 5:29:58 AM8/31/11
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I'm ambivalent about the TV license : I think it's a waste of money and prefer it to be paid by pledge but I appreciate everyone has different expectations of what the infrastructure involves.

But I would really object to a TV left on semi-permanently. I know that's not the idea, but can we please make a point of getting a consensus about use before committing ?

I'd propose that any TV use should be either

1. on personal laptops (etc), with headphones
2. by agreement, calendared, as with a film or workshop.

-adrian

Catherine Flick

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Aug 31, 2011, 5:56:40 AM8/31/11
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This sounds like an excellent idea. +1

Tim Storey

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Aug 31, 2011, 8:14:14 AM8/31/11
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For my 2p I am anti spending the money on a TV license but more importantly anti the space being used for televised events of any type. 
In my opinion it is not the purpose of the space. 
There are many many venues to watch television in, the fact that it is F1 and 'technical' does not change this. 
Should anyone wish to watch it or anything else on laptops or whatever that is up to them but it would be considerate to other users to keep it to themselves i.e. use headphones.
I should point out that I am biased in that I dislike sport and tv.
Balls to the idiot box.

-1

t

Toby Catlin

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Aug 31, 2011, 9:39:37 AM8/31/11
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I love watching F1 but i have to agree with Tim. I am a member so that i can do things i can't do in my flat.
toby
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