Cleaner

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Robert Leverington

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Jul 30, 2011, 4:59:04 AM7/30/11
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Hi all,

I'd like to propose that the hackspace employs a cleaner, in particular
for the three toilets, kitchen, vacuuming, and cleaning the desks.

For the past 1 year we have been operating a volunteer system for doing
the cleaning. This has clearly failed.

As far as I can tell (please correct me if I am wrong), the only person
to have cleaned the toilets since Yuri's night is me. If not, then
surely only one or two other people could have done this aswell.

Today maggots had to be cleared out of the kitchen.

All of these cleaning tasks need to be done *at least* twice a week to
keep the space in a pleasant state. Members are clearly unwilling to
participate this.

I find it absolutley digusting, and am vehemently opposed to having a
cleaner as I believe that participating in the cleaning is something
that *all* members should be involved in doing simply because it is the
considerate thing to do. Even if it is as simple as cleaning a sink
once a week, or hoovering the floor of one room. But this hasn't worked,
and as far as I can imagine won't work - ever.

Cleaners can be employed at approximatley �7.50/hour at the volumes we
require. I would estimate that to clean all the items I mentioned is
3-4 hours work - so this would be around �300/month. This would be
more than affordable for us (especially once we become a charity and
have the associated increase in income). I suspect it would also
increase our membership levels as I highly suspect that many people are
discouraged from joining due to the fact that 90% of the time the space
is an utter pigsty.

Robert

Billy

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Jul 30, 2011, 5:13:54 AM7/30/11
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It would help if people cleaned up after themselves and pulled up
members that don't.

Whether it's the workshop, the toilets or the kitchen, if you make a
mess, clean it up.

If we all did it, this wouldn't be needed.

I've arrived at the space and seen the bins full to over-flowing, and
they haven't been emptied. There will usually have been 4 or 5 people
in the space, and it won't have been done.

As soon as you see them filled, then change them.

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 30, 2011, 5:20:54 AM7/30/11
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On 7/30/11, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:
>
> It would help if people cleaned up after themselves and pulled up
> members that don't.
>

Yes, this is what should happen. But as robert points out, it has
failed to happen well enough. Time to try another approach. Think of
it as contributing to the local economy.

-adrian

Billy

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:37:19 AM7/30/11
to London Hackspace

I'd prefer it if members of the space were a little more
confrontational at times.

As a social space, it's not a preferred solution, but put it like
this, anyone who isn't tidying up after themselves is already being
confrontational is a passive-aggressive manner.

Having lived in a wide variety of shared housing and used a variety of
shared workspaces, this sort of thing has always been the primary
cause of friction.

As i've said to a number of people, look around you, make a list of
things that need doing, choose something and do it. Yesterday, someone
replied, "Ask not what the hackspace can do for you, but what you can
do for the hackspace... :))" Shame that they were thinking on so small
a scale.

It's a principle that should be applied to the universe.

Mark Steward

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:42:27 AM7/30/11
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Seconded.  I suspect those people who hang around ignoring the overflowing bins, stacked sink and surfaces and yesterday's pizza boxes will find it easier if the space actually ends up tidy on a regular basis.  It should also help provide a cut-off point by which people can clear the desks and make the Hackspace safe for visitors.

I think Robert's right that the space hasn't been properly tidy since Yuri's night, and I think it's partly because we don't have a way to remind people to put screwdrivers away and throw away empty packaging frequently enough.  If people motivated to clean have to deal with simple crap like this, it's bound to be a losing battle.

The amount of work this involves is vastly underestimated by those creating it - on recent Saturdays at the space, I've changed the bins and run the dishwasher at least 4 times.  Including cleaning a work area each time, I'd say that's probably 2 hours' work, so perhaps a schedule like this?

  Wednesday: 3 hours (including carpets & toilets)
  Saturday: 2 hours
  Monday: 2 hours

I make that £240/month.  Starting in the morning could mean the cleaner has to work around sleeping bodies, so we may need to say early evening.


Mark

Mark Steward

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:52:50 AM7/30/11
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If it happens to be well outside of work hours, I'll tentatively volunteer to be at the space in advance of the cleaner to make sure it's safe for them and they can actually get their work done.


Mark

Cepmender

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:53:13 AM7/30/11
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Two full weeks ago the kitchen worktop was covered in blue crap, on enquiry the perpetrator freely admitted responsibility, going into detail about how "awesome" the food was that had been the source of the mess. It was pointed out that cleaning up might be a good idea. The crap was still there last night. The message from that person is very clear.....

My message is also very clear, (start rant) THERE IS NOTHING AWESOME ABOUT LEAVING THE PLACE IN THAT CONDITION it is far from the excellence that should be the norm here. (end rant)

While I (and all the other members I have discussed the issue with) don't mind a bit of light cleaning, I am not interested in clearing up after people who just don't care and who plainly have no respect for the facilities or their fellow members.



--- On Sat, 30/7/11, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:
> Cleaners can be employed at approximately £7.50/hour at the volumes we

Cepmender

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:59:08 AM7/30/11
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No, It means that the sleepers will have to move!!! (yes, even me....  :-D  )_

Tim Hutt

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:05:00 AM7/30/11
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I agree with getting a cleaner. Also for emptying bins/recycling, where are then bin bags and where do the full bags go?

Philippe Bradley

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:05:10 AM7/30/11
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Not only is that a significant expense, the hackspace is by and large a professional cleaners' nightmare. For example, how can they tell what electronics lying around are safe to throw away/rearrange or not?

Mark Steward

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:06:29 AM7/30/11
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Under the sink; the skip.  Anyone in the space should be able to tell you this.



Mark

Martin

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:13:24 AM7/30/11
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We used to have a cleaner come round for a couple of hours a week at a student house i used to live in, it used to solve a lot of arguments about who done what and who was responsible.  If it would have the same effect at hackspace then I'd be all for it.  It would be fairly cheap to do and would make the space run a lot smoother.  Yeh i know we should tidy up after ourselves, and I try to do that as much as possible, but even when people do, stuff gets dirty, its the way of life, having a cleaner to do stuff like hoover the clean surfaces would be awesome

Tim Hutt

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:18:37 AM7/30/11
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I agree, so I think they should only be responsible for the kitchen, toilets, quiet room and hoovering.

Jonty Wareing

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:26:29 AM7/30/11
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We wouldn't be asking them to clean desks, just the floor, toilets and
kitchen. That said, shit shouldn't be left lying around in the first
place unless it's clearly labelled. If the cleaner moves everything left
on the floor into the 3-week box people might learn a lesson.

I'm all in favour of this, I have a strong suspicion that the state of
the space is losing us members both in terms of current people and
potential new members. While �300/mo is a significant amount of money, I
think we've reached the point where it's becoming an unavoidable
expense.

This doesn't solve the messiness issue in the space though - we still
need to stop people putting things back in the wrong place, or not
putting them back at all. (Example: The three sets of digital calipers,
which appear to have come equipped with legs and a set of hide-and-seek
rules)

--jonty

Tim Hutt

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:50:31 AM7/30/11
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Wrt the digital callipers, I found one in its box rather than on the wall. If no one objects I shall throw the box away, since it confuses where they live, and is essentially just clutter.

Alec Wright

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:47:10 AM7/30/11
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I actually joked about this the other day, I didn't think our funds
would be able to cover it, but if they can, I'd be in favour of this. I
think the space would be a much more appealing place to be if it were
cleaned regularly.

This email was a lot longer, then I realised most of it was me being
hypocritical and complaining about having to clean up after people when
I'm actually part of the problem since I don't really pull my weight
myself.

signature.asc

Martin Dittus

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Jul 30, 2011, 8:31:22 AM7/30/11
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This is a recurring topic, and I still maintain that we haven't reached the end of our attempts of using social mechanisms. In particular we're still not very good at spreading awareness of this topic beyond a core group, and teaching how to actually clean the space (by e.g. documenting the steps in situ.)

It also strikes me as a lazy approach to addressing a conflict that exists by design. I have great respect for the fundamental choice of running the Hackspace as an organisation almost exclusively based on emergent structures; but I want to point out that for any other organisation it would be a natural step to put members on a cleaning duty schedule.

In respect to Phil's observation below -- have we ever discussed reprimands for big offences? E.g. have we ever ejected a member for wilful violation of The Rules?

http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Rules

m.

Luke Graham

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Jul 30, 2011, 10:11:58 AM7/30/11
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If it is a large set in a black plastic box, then please don't, as it is mine. I always put it back in my box, but sometimes people borrow it and leave it out.

Luke


mkinga

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Jul 30, 2011, 10:35:45 AM7/30/11
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One thing I've found that helps massively in keeping a shared workshop
clean is dedicated bins, dustpad and brush placed by each machine etc.
that is capable of making mess i.e. lathe, mill etc. Each bin, pan and
brush also needs to be labeled with "Lathe" Mill" "Kitchen" etc. and
if it's not where it should be then it's easy to tell where to return
it to! It's not a huge expense and it saves people having to play hunt
the dustpan and brush. Also (and I note it's been done to a certain
extent with the lathe) dedicated tool boards for each machine, even
if it means duplicating some tools greatly increases the chances of
being able to find the tools needed for that particular machine. Of
course there is never a perfect system, there is always going to be
the human factor but I suspect you'll find it helps. A few "friendly"
signs such as "Your mother doesn't work here please clean up after
yourself" and "This isn't a student flat please clean up..." ;-) In
strategic places might also be an idea. IMV a cleaner shouldn't be
necissary but if it's decided that one is needed then their
responsibilities should be stricktly restricted to basic cleaning and
NOT putting stuff away.

Martin.

Martin Dittus

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Jul 30, 2011, 10:40:27 AM7/30/11
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I very much like these suggestions.

As we were cleaning up the soldering station today the same had occurred to us as well: there's a perpetual mess because there is a lack of storage space for tools and scrap materials. (We turned the black fake military metal box into a "Tools" box now.)

m.

Sam Cook

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Jul 30, 2011, 10:51:14 AM7/30/11
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When I'm next in (2nd week of Aug) I will make a series of boxes (similar dimensions to window boxes for flowers) I will then be attaching these to the desks. 

Crap left on the desks will then be swept into these.

I fucking hate the amont of shit that gets left on the desks and then ends up on the floor; I hope this will help. 

I will also be drilling a fuck- off big hole in the back of workbench and attaching a thing to get it into the bin. 

Anyone object to this?

S  

amx109

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Jul 30, 2011, 10:53:46 AM7/30/11
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On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a recurring topic, and I still maintain that we haven't reached the end of our attempts of using social mechanisms. In particular we're still not very good at spreading awareness of this topic beyond a core group, and teaching how to actually clean the space (by e.g. documenting the steps in situ.)

It also strikes me as a lazy approach to addressing a conflict that exists by design. I have great respect for the fundamental choice of running the Hackspace as an organisation almost exclusively based on emergent structures; but I want to point out that for any other organisation it would be a natural step to put members on a cleaning duty schedule.

In respect to Phil's observation below -- have we ever discussed reprimands for big offences? E.g. have we ever ejected a member for wilful violation of The Rules?

http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Rules

m.


i would like to second martin's sentiment that we havent explored the full avenue of possibilities.

citing one specific area, this is what the 10pm tuesday cleanup was aimed at; to have a weekly tidying/cleaning session that would serve the functional purpose but also to highlight it to a wider audience, since tuesdays are a night when alot of people turn up.

Robert Leverington

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Jul 30, 2011, 11:14:39 AM7/30/11
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This discussion is *NOT* about tidying and organising. Obviously this
is a big issue, but it isn't something a cleaner would be able to help
with.

Cleaning the toilets, cleaning the kitchen, cleaning the floor are not
communal tasks that require any element of discussion. They just need
to be done.

At the moment, they are rarely being carried out. The only way I can
see of ever solving this is to somehow incentivise it, or to get a
cleaner. Does anyone have any suggestions in this regard?

I would suspect that having a clean environment is likely to make people
respect it more (in terms of tidying up after themselves, etc.).

Robert

On 2011-07-30, Sam Cook wrote:
> When I'm next in (2nd week of Aug) I will make a series of boxes (similar
> dimensions to window boxes for flowers) I will then be attaching these to
> the desks.
>
> Crap left on the desks will then be swept into these.
>
> I fucking hate the amont of shit that gets left on the desks and then ends
> up on the floor; I hope this will help.
>
> I will also be drilling a fuck- off big hole in the back of workbench and
> attaching a thing to get it into the bin.
>
> Anyone object to this?
>
> S
>
> On 30 July 2011 15:40, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I very much like these suggestions.
> >
> > As we were cleaning up the soldering station today the same had occurred to
> > us as well: there's a perpetual mess because there is a lack of storage
> > space for tools and scrap materials. (We turned the black fake military
> > metal box into a "Tools" box now.)
> >
> > m.
> >
> >
> > On 30 Jul 2011, at 15:35, mkinga wrote:
> >

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 30, 2011, 11:55:11 AM7/30/11
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On 7/30/11, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seconded. I suspect those people who hang around ignoring the overflowing
> bins, stacked sink and surfaces and yesterday's pizza boxes will find it
> easier if the space actually ends up tidy on a regular basis. It should
> also help provide a cut-off point by which people can clear the desks and
> make the Hackspace safe for visitors.
>

I have no idea why it's acceptable to leave dirty items in the sink.
What do you expect to happen to them ? Rot until they're clean ? They
can either be washed up when you finish with them or put in the
dishwasher, not left for Mark or anyone else to clear. No other
alternatives.

-adrian

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 30, 2011, 11:51:58 AM7/30/11
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I agree. Sleepers are tolerated (and I think they should be) but not
encouraged. If it's daylight and you're still asleep, expect to be
woken. You're lucky to be allowed to sleep at all. I'm not directing
this to anyone in particular as nobody has ever complained to me about
being woken, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.

-adrian

mkinga

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:54:37 PM7/30/11
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BTW another issue with cleaners is security. It's enough of a risk
with around 300 members in a shared space but you would hope that the
sort of people that sign up to the hackspace idea are going to respect
property etc. A bought in cleaner is a risk. Where I currently work
we've got through about five cleaners in as many years. One was caught
making international phone calls on our phones, another stole a
projector and the others were simply crap at cleaning! Our current one
is probably on her way out after she threw a bin bag of rubbish down a
starwell without checking whether there was anyone at the bottom
(there was and it narrowly missed them). Maybe we're unlucky but it
does tend to be a minimum wage job.

Martin.

Simon Howes

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Jul 30, 2011, 6:59:33 PM7/30/11
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On the other hand, i know someone very trustworthy that would do cleaning for about 30quid a session, once a week. This is a lot cheaper than the quoted 300 and if he sucks, we can always fire him (but that said hed prolly do a great job)

Sam Kelly

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Jul 30, 2011, 7:58:22 PM7/30/11
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That brings up a very important point! We should definitely pay anyone we employ (or contract) the London Living Wage, currently £8.30 per hour. It's ethically the right thing to do, and it makes sense from a security standpoint too, as they're likely to be much more honest and loyal if we pay them more than the bare minimum.

Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

Mark Steward

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Jul 30, 2011, 8:43:27 PM7/30/11
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On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:54 PM, mkinga <mfx...@gmail.com> wrote:
BTW another issue with cleaners is security. It's enough of a risk
with around 300 members in a shared space but you would hope that the
sort of people that sign up to the hackspace idea are going to respect
property etc. A bought in cleaner is a risk. Where I currently work
we've got through about five cleaners in as many years. One was caught
making international phone calls on our phones, another stole a
projector and the others were simply crap at cleaning! Our current one
is probably on her way out after she threw a bin bag of rubbish down a
starwell without checking whether there was anyone at the bottom
(there was and it narrowly missed them). Maybe we're unlucky but it
does tend to be a minimum wage job.

That brings up a very important point! We should definitely pay anyone we employ (or contract) the London Living Wage, currently £8.30 per hour. It's ethically the right thing to do, and it makes sense from a security standpoint too, as they're likely to be much more honest and loyal if we pay them more than the bare minimum.

 
Yes, this occurred to me straight after sending the last email - £240 was April's living wage rate, and a round £10/hour would bring it to £300/month.

Is it worth discussing this on the infrastructure mailing list, or will that just mean that nobody reads it?


Mark

Tim Matthews

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Jul 31, 2011, 3:23:49 AM7/31/11
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I find this a great idea, from the start I have always believed in
having a cleaner.

It's just a fact of life -- people don't clean up after themselves.
And another fact of life, it's a very serious health and safety issue.
The Hackspace is big, very big ... and with the more people there is
much more chaos. Chaos is great and does encourage creativity,
however, when things get too messy then chaos can work against us. We
need to find the right balance here.

Therefore, it would be a great idea to have the place cleaned during
quiet times, like on Monday and Thursday mornings. And if we got one
or two cleaners, they would have the Hackspace back in a civilised
state within one hour. It's amazing seeing cleaners at work, I wish I
could clean that well.

For Health and Safety it would be the best investment we could make.
The only thing the cleaners need from us (rather than cleaning stuff)
is someone who can guide them and who can show them what to do.

t.

On Jul 30, 4:59 am, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to propose that the hackspace employs a cleaner, in particular
> for the three toilets, kitchen, vacuuming, and cleaning the desks.
>
> For the past 1 year we have been operating a volunteer system for doing
> the cleaning.  This has clearly failed.
>
> As far as I can tell (please correct me if I am wrong), the only person
> to have cleaned the toilets since Yuri's night is me.  If not, then
> surely only one or two other people could have done this aswell.
>
> Today maggots had to be cleared out of the kitchen.
>
> All of these cleaning tasks need to be done *at least* twice a week to
> keep the space in a pleasant state.  Members are clearly unwilling to
> participate this.
>
> I find it absolutley digusting, and am vehemently opposed to having a
> cleaner as I believe that participating in the cleaning is something
> that *all* members should be involved in doing simply because it is the
> considerate thing to do.  Even if it is as simple as cleaning a sink
> once a week, or hoovering the floor of one room.  But this hasn't worked,
> and as far as I can imagine won't work - ever.
>
> Cleaners can be employed at approximatley 7.50/hour at the volumes we

Katie Sutton

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Jul 31, 2011, 1:32:27 PM7/31/11
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Incidentally, someone I know is a cleaner between other work, and I
would be prepared to vouch for her. She was/is Poggs' housemate so
he'll know her too.

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Matt Peperell

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Aug 1, 2011, 8:04:01 AM8/1/11
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I was going to suggest this same person too! So +1 from me (if she's
interested)

--
Regards,

Matt Peperell
Tel: +44 (0) 7951 092 890
Skype: mattpep

Peter Hicks

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Aug 1, 2011, 8:10:07 AM8/1/11
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On 31 July 2011 18:32, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:

Incidentally, someone I know is a cleaner between other work, and I
would be prepared to vouch for her.  She was/is Poggs' housemate so
he'll know her too.

Is :)  She is excellent.


Poggs
 

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 1, 2011, 8:33:15 AM8/1/11
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There's a potential problem with employing a cleaner direct : our
strategy for avoiding H&S issues is currently to make everyone in the
space responsible for themselves, as members or guests rather than
employees. It may be that using an agency avoids this, though I have
some doubts.

I have no actual knowledge of the legal situation and I'm only
advising caution & research rather than saying this can't be done.
Perhaps Pogg's housemate herself would be a good person to ask.

You may have noticed that I'm not usually one to be overcautious but
I'm more worried by lawyers and civil service officials than by either
rational or non-sentient entities. I think it's really important that
we establish a culture where people are responsible for their own
safety rather than blaming the organisation : this might be as
important in the Maker culture as the GPL is in software and I believe
we should go out of our way to ensure we do it right, legally, morally
and practically.

-adrian

Russ Garrett

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Aug 1, 2011, 9:24:13 AM8/1/11
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On 1 August 2011 13:33, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a potential problem with employing a cleaner direct : our
> strategy for avoiding H&S issues is currently to make everyone in the
> space responsible for themselves, as members or guests rather than
> employees. It may be that using an agency avoids this, though I have
> some doubts.

We have a Health and Safety obligation to anyone employed on our
premises, this is true. But if they're just hoovering the floor and
cleaning up, I would be quite worried if they were exposed to anything
dangerous. Nothing in the space should be hazardous to you unless you
interact with it.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 1, 2011, 9:43:14 AM8/1/11
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If it only applies to tasks you give the employee and not general
stuff (which makes a lot of sense, I agree) then that's great, no
problem.

-adrian

Philippe Bradley

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Aug 1, 2011, 9:53:34 AM8/1/11
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It's all pretty academic (like much of the dialogue on this mailing list) since the Space probably has occupier's liability (in tort/negligence) for anything that happens to anyone in the space, employee or not. But there are other specific ways, besides employees' elfansafety. 

Let's say the cleaner, in the course of his/her employment, ruins something very expensive belonging to a member or guest, e.g. a work laptop. Well, vicarious liability means that liability for the employee's actions could possibly fall on the 'Space. 

However I'm not an employment lawyer and perhaps if the cleaner is held to be a contractor not an employee, then the situation is different.

Mark Steward

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Aug 1, 2011, 9:58:39 AM8/1/11
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On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's all pretty academic (like much of the dialogue on this mailing list) since the Space probably has occupier's liability (in tort/negligence) for anything that happens to anyone in the space, employee or not. But there are other specific ways, besides employees' elfansafety. 


The issue is H&S because it involves following a vast amount of risk and signage rules that we so far haven't needed to worry about.
 
Let's say the cleaner, in the course of his/her employment, ruins something very expensive belonging to a member or guest, e.g. a work laptop. Well, vicarious liability means that liability for the employee's actions could possibly fall on the 'Space. 

However I'm not an employment lawyer and perhaps if the cleaner is held to be a contractor not an employee, then the situation is different.

From memory of sketched reading of the H&S guidance, I'm not sure this is true.


Mark

Darren Hubbard

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Aug 1, 2011, 9:58:56 AM8/1/11
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Agents will usually find themselves vicariously liable also so making the cleaner a contractor would not necessarily protect the 'space.

(IANAL)

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 1, 2011, 10:06:05 AM8/1/11
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Is occupier's liability the thing that private and council landowners
sometimes blame for their inability to allow public access ? If so,
it's highly likely that it's frequently misstated for the owner's own
reasons.

Where could we get advice on this sort of thing ? Preferably from
someone with no vested interest in creating conflict ? We should be
campaigning against the elements of these laws that are used to
incorrectly assign responsibility. The current government seems keen
to sweep away this sort of stuff and we might be able to benefit from
that.

-adrian

Philippe Bradley

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Aug 1, 2011, 10:08:19 AM8/1/11
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You mean principals - the agent is the contractor.

Catherine Flick

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Aug 1, 2011, 10:11:31 AM8/1/11
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Surely the cleaner will know what needs doing, if anything? It seems to me that this sort of thing would come up fairly often for any independent professional cleaner, especially one who cleans at businesses vs. private homes.

 C.

Kirsten Skillen

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Aug 1, 2011, 10:31:44 AM8/1/11
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My boyfriends mum was an empolyment lawyer and had her own legal firm priour to retirement 3 years ago any help

On 1 Aug 2011 15:06, "Adrian Godwin" <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is occupier's liability the thing that private and council landowners
sometimes blame for their inability to allow public access ? If so,
it's highly likely that it's frequently misstated for the owner's own
reasons.

Where could we get advice on this sort of thing ? Preferably from
someone with no vested interest in creating conflict ? We should be
campaigning against the elements of these laws that are used to
incorrectly assign responsibility. The current government seems keen
to sweep away this sort of stuff and we might be able to benefit from
that.

-adrian




On 8/1/11, Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's all pretty academic (like much ...

Gavan Fantom

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Aug 2, 2011, 6:10:53 AM8/2/11
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On 31/07/2011 00:58, Sam Kelly wrote:
> Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd
> suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather
> than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.

Personally, I'd suggest first looking at the webcam archives.

--
Gillette - the best a man can forget

Alec Wright

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Aug 2, 2011, 6:09:29 AM8/2/11
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On Tue, 2011-08-02 at 11:10 +0100, Gavan Fantom wrote:
> On 31/07/2011 00:58, Sam Kelly wrote:
> > Mind you, if we did employ a cleaner, and if anything went missing, I'd
> > suggest looking at the 300+ people who pay for 24 hour access rather
> > than the one person who's paid to be there between particular times.
>
> Personally, I'd suggest first looking at the webcam archives.
>
Webcams would be useless for security. Since anyone can move them
around, any sensible theif would make sure they were pointing the other
way first.
signature.asc

Sam Cook

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Aug 2, 2011, 6:21:02 AM8/2/11
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Personally I'd check that it hasn't been misplaced first. 

Never ascribe to malice what can as easily be ascribed to incompetence :p

S

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 10:36:37 AM8/10/11
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When Robert suggested this, i thought maybe it was worth a try since what we do at the moment doesn't seem to work.

But I've had a rethink : it seems to me that having someone who's job it is to clean goes against the principle that we're responsible for our own actions. People who leave the work to someone else will have no reason to change.

What about a rota ? If every member was allocated a week, and did half a day's cleaning during that week, their turn wouldn't come around again for about 6 years. Even if it only applied to members who'd attended the space during the previous year, it wouldn't be frequent.

-adrian

Jim MacArthur

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Aug 10, 2011, 10:42:35 AM8/10/11
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I'd prefer this approach to getting a cleaner. I'd like it to be a bit more flexible, as it's often 6 weeks between visits for me. Presumably as with most rotas, swapping with other members would be OK. 

Jim

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:17:22 AM8/10/11
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Yes, it would be silly to arrange it inconveniently. Easiest way might be to choose your own date, and only get hassle (and oyster revocation, or the pizza bill) if you failed to turn up or didn't book one at all.

-adrian

Kieran

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:17:39 AM8/10/11
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:42:35 +0100, Jim MacArthur wrote

> > What about a rota ? If every member was allocated a week, and did half a
> > day's cleaning during that week, their turn wouldn't come around again for
> > about 6 years. Even if it only applied to members who'd attended the space
> > during the previous year, it wouldn't be frequent.
>

> I'd prefer this approach to getting a cleaner. I'd like it to be a
> bit more flexible, as it's often 6 weeks between visits for me.
> Presumably as with most rotas, swapping with other members would be OK.

Wouldn't work; it would be a mix of a few people doing properly, a few more
doing a half-arsed job and the majority ignoring it entirely.

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:26:47 AM8/10/11
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Kieran <kie...@twisted.org.uk> wrote:

Wouldn't work; it would be a mix of a few people doing properly, a few more
doing a half-arsed job and the majority ignoring it entirely.

But what we have now doesn't work either, so it wouldn't be worse.

Ignoring entirely : revoke membership. Frankly, there's no place for people like that in a community effort. I don't believe we need their money so much that we want to work for them. If a significant proportion of membership have that attitude I predict the hackspace's demise in short order anyway.

Half-arsed : more tricky. But unless we get a run of half-arsed people on consecutive weeks, it'll still be better than we have now. And if we employ a cleaner, we might get a crummy one and take a few weeks to sack them.

-adrian

Russ Garrett

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:32:39 AM8/10/11
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On 10 August 2011 16:26, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But what we have now doesn't work either, so it wouldn't be worse.
>
> Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.

How do you tell if someone is using the space enough to warrant them
doing a cleaning shift? If they turn up once? Once per year? Once per
month?

We have a lot of irregular users who might be deterred from coming to
the space if this automatically requires them to spend half a day
cleaning up other peoples' mess.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Richard Fine

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:27:10 AM8/10/11
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On 8/10/2011 3:36 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> it seems to me that having someone who's job it is
> to clean goes against the principle that we're responsible for our own
> actions. People who leave the work to someone else will have no reason to
> change.
>
> What about a rota ?

Maybe you could combine having a rota with having a cleaner. Have a rota
of who is *responsible* for the space being clean; when it's your turn
you can *either* clean the place up yourself, *or* hire the cleaner (and
cover the cost yourself, or get messy people to pay up, or whatever
works for you). That way, people are still responsible for looking after
the space themselves, but it's up to them exactly how they go about
doing that - if you'd rather pay a bit of cash than get your hands
dirty, you're free to do so.

It'd be better to organize one particular cleaning agency that people
call in - might be some economies of scale, and there are fewer trust
issues.

To ensure that it wouldn't be killed by apathy, you might need to set
things up such that the cleaner is the 'default' option somehow - e.g.
get people to put down cash deposits, credit card, D/D or whatever, and
use it to cover the cost of calling in the cleaner in the event that
it's the end of their shift and they've not done anything. (Which is
almost like having an incentive: clean the space yourself, get paid your
own deposit! :) )

- Richard

Wren Montgomery

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:37:27 AM8/10/11
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+1  as just such an irregular user. 

W

Russ Garrett

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:38:55 AM8/10/11
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On 10 August 2011 16:27, Richard Fine <richar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe you could combine having a rota with having a cleaner. Have a rota of
> who is *responsible* for the space being clean; when it's your turn you can
> *either* clean the place up yourself, *or* hire the cleaner (and cover the
> cost yourself, or get messy people to pay up, or whatever works for you).

In my student house, we had a cleaning rota which nobody followed.
Every week I'd do all the washing up and then guilt my housemates into
buying me beer. It worked quite well.
</anecdote>

I don't think any rota-based system will work for Hackspace. There is
just such a huge range of involvement, from people who are around
nearly every day to people who haven't been in over a year. They
shouldn't have the same amount of obligation to keep the space clean.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Wren Montgomery

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:42:01 AM8/10/11
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There was  supposed to be a second, content-bearing, sentence there.  Sigh.

Further...I am lousy at cleaning things.  I know this, I embrace this.  Having a rota really opens the possibility of endless trolling re quality of cleaning.  Far, far simpler to pay someone to do a consistent job.

W

Nigel Worsley

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:47:36 AM8/10/11
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I am one of those people, and there is no way that I am going to spend
any of the little time I manage to spend in the space clearing up after
a bunch of lazy slobs that practically live there.

>> Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.

Wouldn't be necessary, I would resign in disgust if such a system was
put in place. You don't want my £20 a month? Or my regular contributions
to pledges? Fine, screw you and I will find a hackspace that does.

nigle

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 11:54:23 AM8/10/11
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 10/08/2011 16:32, Russ Garrett wrote:
On 10 August 2011 16:26, Adrian Godwin<artg...@gmail.com>  wrote:

But what we have now doesn't work either, so it wouldn't be worse.

Ignoring entirely : revoke membership.

How do you tell if someone is using the space enough to warrant them
doing a cleaning shift? If they turn up once? Once per year? Once per
month?


Good question, but is this an implementation issue or a fundamental flaw ?

I am one of those people, and there is no way that I am going to spend
any of the little time I manage to spend in the space clearing up after
a bunch of lazy slobs that practically live there.

nigle

I might feel the same, but one occasion in 6 years ? I can live with that.

-adrian

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 10, 2011, 12:05:08 PM8/10/11
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On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Richard Fine <richar...@gmail.com> wrote:

To ensure that it wouldn't be killed by apathy, you might need to set things up such that the cleaner is the 'default' option somehow - e.g. get people to put down cash deposits, credit card, D/D or whatever, and use it to cover the cost of calling in the cleaner in the event that it's the end of their shift and they've not done anything. (Which is almost like having an incentive: clean the space yourself, get paid your own deposit! :) )

- Richard

Not a bad idea, provided an agency will do one-offs rather than regular contracts (I would they they would, but will probably charge a fair bit more)

Or you could just bribe another member to stand in for you.

-adrian

amx109

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Aug 10, 2011, 12:08:10 PM8/10/11
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a recurring pledge where you can pledge money or your time for cleaning?

Richard Fine

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Aug 10, 2011, 12:08:21 PM8/10/11
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The system I proposed doesn't really require a predefined rota - the
main point was just that once one person has been assigned
responsibility for a week, it's then up to them to decide whether they
want to pull on marigolds and scrub the toilet themselves, or whether
they'd rather call in the professionals. Instead of making "do we do it
or do we call in a cleaner" a space-wide decision, leave it largely up
to individual members.

On 8/10/2011 4:38 PM, Russ Garrett wrote:
> There is just such a huge range of involvement, from people who are
> around nearly every day to people who haven't been in over a year.
> They shouldn't have the same amount of obligation to keep the space
> clean.

If we're going to take that as a constraint, then we're going to need
some way of measuring which people are using the space the most, no
matter which solution that then is used for, I think.

Maybe assign responsibility using something like: At the end of the
week, pick a random sign-in from the logs of the front door. The owner
of the card used to sign in is then responsible for cleaning the space
the following week. That'd bias the system towards regular users, while
still allowing for the possibility that occasional users would still
have to clean up once in a while. There'd probably need to be some other
constraints, like not picking the same person more than once a month,
but you get the general idea.

- Richard

Russ Garrett

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Aug 10, 2011, 12:13:03 PM8/10/11