[london-hack-space] Banning people from hackspaces

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Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:34:20 PM11/16/11
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Let's have a new topic for this, please.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
On 16/11/2011 00:12, Russ Garrett wrote:
> I don't usually get angry about things. I really don't mind people
> occasionally sleeping in the space, but it is now getting silly.
>
> One of our toilets has a collection of toiletries to rival an upmarket
> west end club. These should be removed by Thursday or they will be
> binned.
>
> Someone is completely taking the piss and it's wearing me down. I
> don't think it's just me, you're diminishing the value of the space
> for everyone by using it as a cheap hostel.
>
> I'm going to give this one more chance, but if this doesn't work I'm
> going to seek to outright ban sleeping in the space, and I really
> don't want to do that.
>

I hate to ask this, but has anyone ever been kicked-out-of/banned-from
the space for breaking the rules? Is there any sort of announcement
if/when someone is banned?
I know this doesn't address this post directly, but it does address the
tone of the other subsequent replies to it.

While I know it's better to deal with individual issues in private for
many reasons, when larger rules are broken it serves a positive purpose
to show the penalty for breaking those rules being enforced publicly.
I believe rules are only as strong as the ability to enforce them, and
if they aren't shown being enforced now and then, the perception is that
they aren't being enforced at all.

If people are continually breaking the rules, then accountability needs
to be forced upon those who are doing so, or risk ALL rules being seen
as equally unenforced.

I'm also concerned that there might be a touch of "Geek Social Fallacy
#1" (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) at work here. No
one wants to be the one to call someone on bad behaviour because they
themselves don't want to be seen as evil/mean/unfair.
And even if they are, there enough members of the space now it's hard to
know everyones names. How do you identify someone if you were to report
them anonymously?

While not practical for the space in the same way, meets I go to
regularly now have at least one person officially on-staff at each, even
wearing a special staff T-shirt. They act as go-to person for the venue
owners in case of trouble, but also go-to person for attendees having
trouble or seeing someone breaking the rules. Stuff gets dealt with
immediately and quietly, but temporary and permanent bans are notified
publicly.
Perhaps running the issues like trouble-tickets, or having a contact
rota to similarly report issues to immediately?

Sci


Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:01:53 PM11/16/11
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Not the topic name I would have chosen, it's tone is likely to bring on
a lot of harsh reactions on name alone in the current atmosphere.

The issue I was asking about was generally rule-enforcement and
accountability, not banning alone, though I used it as the extreme example.

The summation of the intent of the question I was asking was; what is
the penalty for breaking the rules and is it visible?

Sci

Robert Leverington

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:12:19 PM11/16/11
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On 2011-11-16, Sci wrote:
> Not the topic name I would have chosen, it's tone is likely to bring on
> a lot of harsh reactions on name alone in the current atmosphere.
>
> The issue I was asking about was generally rule-enforcement and
> accountability, not banning alone, though I used it as the extreme example.
>
> The summation of the intent of the question I was asking was; what is
> the penalty for breaking the rules and is it visible?

There is no penalty, and no one has ever been banned from the space or
stripped of their membership.

Following serious incidents in the past members have been spoken to
individually and this has generally been well recieved and successful.

I don't think discussion of punishment is particularly constructive
until we have attempted to resolve these issues on a personal basis
(posting to the mailing list doesn't count). The rules are primarily in
place to provide gudiance and as a reference.

Robert

SheraDreaming

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:18:00 PM11/16/11
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I agree that it's a discussion that needs to be had unfortunately.

No point in rules otherwise, and in that scenario it would be worth
thinking about capping maximum space size....about 200 people ago.

Has the space ever had a serious safety incident due to someone's
negligence? Maybe such scenarios would be a less inflammatory place
to start?

What should happen to that person accountability-wise?

SheraDreaming

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:19:05 PM11/16/11
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Sorry Robert, you were posting as I was writing.

S

Avishalom Shalit

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:20:15 PM11/16/11
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what happens when someone doesn't pay their fees ?
surely you've had people who stopped paying and kept coming.
`
-- vish

Ciarán Mooney

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:41:38 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 19:20, Avishalom Shalit <avis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what happens when someone doesn't pay their fees ?
> surely you've had people who stopped paying and kept coming.

People keep coming before they start paying!

People are welcome at nearly any time of day, it just that members
just get certain perks. Like 24/7 access via an RFID card, accounts on
Babbage, occasional discounts on workshops, etc.

I used to be a paying member and I've let my subscription lapse. This
is due to money and time constraints. When I visit now I make sure I
go when I know people are likely to be around to let me in.

Unfortunately there was no automatic methods that remove my account
from the computer to prevent RFID access. This is a matter of someone
writing the code.

Ciarán

Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:43:25 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 19:41, Ciarán Mooney <general...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> People are welcome at nearly any time of day, it just that members
> just get certain perks.

Erm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case... Or it's not supposed to be
anyway. You should be paying at least £5/month IIRC.

Robert Leverington

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:04:40 PM11/16/11
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On 2011-11-16, Tim Hutt wrote:

> On 16 November 2011 19:41, Ciar�n Mooney <general...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > People are welcome at nearly any time of day, it just that members
> > just get certain perks.
>
> Erm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case... Or it's not supposed to be
> anyway. You should be paying at least �5/month IIRC.

We are open to non-members providing a paying member is present (which is most
of the time).

Robert

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:05:43 PM11/16/11
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Already done, man.  You'll find your card doesn't work.



Mark

Ciarán Mooney

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:05:49 PM11/16/11
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Hi,

> Erm, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case... Or it's not supposed to be
> anyway. You should be paying at least £5/month IIRC.

I've visited the hackspace on the odd weekend long before I became a
member. I had no expectation of gaining access, and tried to
contribute what little I could when I did. I had no storage so had to
carry all my projects and any special equipment with me.

For the short time I was a member I'd turn up at what could be
considered un-sociable times usually early on a Sunday morning. My
membership meant that I could gain access without having to bother
anyone else. I could also store my stuff in a Members Box, a member
perk I forgot to mention.

If the space started being a strictly member-only space it would be
detrimental to the entire atmosphere.

Ciarán

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:09:33 PM11/16/11
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Noisebridge have kicked someone out before - it involved continued antisocial behaviour and harrassment, and those most affected documenting the case against them.  I think they spread the word among regulars that the person in question is not welcome, rather like a pub would.

However, I'd hope we never have to do anything like this, especially not for anything as silly as "breaking the rules" or otherwise enforcing authority.


Mark

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:11:26 PM11/16/11
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Where should this be linked so that people read it?



Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:44:46 PM11/16/11
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Hmm it doesn't appear to be stated explicitly anywhere, so maybe I am mistaken.

James Heaver

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:47:02 PM11/16/11
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And of course there was the whole buddhist monk thing at noisebridge
https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-July/024213.html

Tim Storey

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:52:32 PM11/16/11
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genius...

\t

Russ Garrett

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Nov 16, 2011, 5:37:59 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 20:44, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm it doesn't appear to be stated explicitly anywhere, so maybe I am mistaken.

You don't have to be a member to use the Hackspace. We just prefer
that you are, and we will encourage you to become one :).

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Cook

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Nov 17, 2011, 6:27:28 AM11/17/11
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On 16 November 2011 20:11, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
Where should this be linked so that people read it?

 
Fuck only knows. No one seems to read the FAQ[1] either, or the getting started[2] page and certainly not the rules :p

</whine>

Back on topic I think having set punishments won't do much good; if people are being that much of a nuisance then it needs to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. I don't think the mess etc is a cause for this (which now I think about it was probably made worse by the fact that everything got moved out of the kitchen to allow Phil & Robert to attach brackets for the counters (Thanks, guys, you rock!)

S

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 17, 2011, 7:16:47 AM11/17/11
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On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Fuck only knows. No one seems to read the FAQ[1] either, or the getting
> started[2] page and certainly not the rules :p

How about an exam ? Periodically, Doorbot disables your card. To get
it re-enabled, you have to answer questions posed from the wiki, which
force you to read important pages.

> case-by-case basis. I don't think the mess etc is a cause for this (which
> now I think about it was probably made worse by the fact that everything got
> moved out of the kitchen to allow Phil & Robert to attach brackets for the
> counters (Thanks, guys, you rock!)

On this thread .. is it OK to put some of the temporarily-moved stuff
back in the kitchen ? There's an oven and various cupboards in the
workshop, but I don't want to move them out of the way (back to the
kitchen) if someone's working on them.

-adrian

Katie Sutton

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Nov 17, 2011, 9:24:41 AM11/17/11
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On 17 November 2011 12:16, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Fuck only knows. No one seems to read the FAQ[1] either, or the getting
>> started[2] page and certainly not the rules :p
>
> How about an exam ? Periodically, Doorbot disables your card. To get
> it re-enabled, you have to answer questions posed from the wiki, which
> force you to read important pages.

a) annoying and likely to drive people away;
b) not going to work because people will just go look at the wiki when
they need the answers, not when it actually matters (ie the rest of
the time). And they won't read the whole page anyway, they'll Ctrl+F
for the words they're looking for.

</cynical>


--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Peter Hicks

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Nov 17, 2011, 9:28:49 AM11/17/11
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On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 02:24:41PM +0000, Katie Sutton wrote:

> </cynical>

As a group, many of us try to solve people problems with technology.

This is not always effective.


Peter

Sam Cook

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Nov 17, 2011, 9:42:30 AM11/17/11
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On 17 November 2011 14:28, Peter Hicks <peter...@poggs.co.uk> wrote:
As a group, many of us try to solve people problems with technology.

We need to create a bot that checks whether you're going to suggest using technology to solve a social problem and force you to re-asses the situation.  

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 17, 2011, 9:43:13 AM11/17/11
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On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:
>
> a) annoying and likely to drive people away;

I'll take that as excess cynicism, because, really ? are people that
uncommitted that being asked to look at the wiki once every 6 months
or something will make them leave ? and would we even miss them ?

i'm not asking people to interact with the wiki at the door on every
entry. just get nagged by doorbot occasionally and told to refresh
their membership rites or lose access.

> b) not going to work because people will just go look at the wiki when
> they need the answers, not when it actually matters (ie the rest of
> the time).  And they won't read the whole page anyway, they'll Ctrl+F
> for the words they're looking for.

text search is easily avoided by asking comprehension questions.
writing suitable search terms will cause them to read the wiki in a
great deal more detail than the question will require, hence job done.

yes, it's not going to encourage someone with a deep psychological
horror of wikis make it their bedtime reading. but it might ensure
they do actually know there are a few rules, or that some equipment
needs extra care.

-adrian

Simon Howes

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Nov 17, 2011, 9:44:32 AM11/17/11
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Also we need rules and procedures to assess whether the bot will be ethical and address the underlying issues.

Katie Sutton

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Nov 17, 2011, 10:13:09 AM11/17/11
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On 17 November 2011 14:43, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:
>>
>> a) annoying and likely to drive people away;
>
> I'll take that as excess cynicism, because, really ? are people that
> uncommitted that being asked to look at the wiki once every 6 months
> or something will make them leave ? and would we even miss them ?
>
> i'm not asking people to interact with the wiki at the door on every
> entry. just get nagged by doorbot occasionally and told to refresh
> their membership rites or lose access.

Your initial proposal included "Doorbot disables your card" -- for
people like me, who don't live in London, it would be *really*
annoying to get to the space and find my card didn't work/I couldn't
get into the space because of a random "quiz to refresh your
membership!" event.

>> b) not going to work because people will just go look at the wiki when
>> they need the answers, not when it actually matters (ie the rest of
>> the time).  And they won't read the whole page anyway, they'll Ctrl+F
>> for the words they're looking for.
>
> text search is easily avoided by asking comprehension questions.
> writing suitable search terms will cause them to read the wiki in a
> great deal more detail than the question will require, hence job done.

Which means someone will have to mark the answers, because I don't
think computers are intelligent enough to know whether an answer is
right or not when it doesn't know what the exact wording of the answer
has to be? Are you volunteering?

(I'm saying all of this as someone who *does* read the wiki
periodically to pass on info and rules to friends who ask about the
'space and its equipment, fwiw.)

Big Will

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Nov 17, 2011, 10:28:39 AM11/17/11
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Isn't this just the type of thing that a nicely made and printed
poster in the hackspace would equally accomplish.

You know - print t-shirts with the rules on and sell them, I bet
people would buy them as a LHS branded piece of clothing.

danny staple

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Nov 17, 2011, 10:39:20 AM11/17/11
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A rule #0 T-shirt with the hackspace logo would be quite fun I
think.... Queue stick men being on fire...

--
Danny Staple

Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple

Russ Garrett

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Nov 17, 2011, 10:46:15 AM11/17/11
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Guys,

Stop inventing elaborate technological solutions for social problems.
It's stupid.

I agree with Will, we just need a few more posters and other simple
ways of encouraging people to read the rules.

Now unless someone has something constructive to add, can I suggest we
kindly shut the hell up before everyone unsubscribes from the list
except for the trolls.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Katie Sutton

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Nov 17, 2011, 11:14:22 AM11/17/11
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On 17 November 2011 15:46, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> Stop inventing elaborate technological solutions for social problems.
> It's stupid.
>
> I agree with Will, we just need a few more posters and other simple
> ways of encouraging people to read the rules.

I know it's *technically* a technological solution, but...

Posters with QR codes leading to the rules page.

People like QR codes. (Some) people will scan them and see where they
go. And end up on the rules page. Ta-da!

Avishalom Shalit

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Nov 17, 2011, 11:33:27 AM11/17/11
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and close the browser.
-----------------------
the problem isn't that people would love to read the rules but can't find them.

the problem isn't even that people do not know the rules.

problem A is that (apparently) (some) people don't care about the rules.
problem B is that other people are hesitant to confront the people in A.

a poster on the wall, gives some authority or at least support, to the
guy in B, addressing the guy in A, and helps to alleviate B's concern
on how to deal with "says who?" (says this big ass sign on this wall.)


-- vish

danny staple

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Nov 17, 2011, 11:39:21 AM11/17/11
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A QR code can have a small bit of text. How about having random rules,
FAQ's or just suggestions for being thoughtful as single lines in QR
codes? Turn them into interesting posters about the place.

On 17 November 2011 16:14, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:

--

Katie Sutton

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Nov 17, 2011, 12:04:36 PM11/17/11
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On 17 November 2011 16:39, danny staple <da...@orionrobots.co.uk> wrote:
> A QR code can have a small bit of text. How about having random rules,
> FAQ's or just suggestions for being thoughtful as single lines in QR
> codes? Turn them into interesting posters about the place.

And this is why I love Hackspace. One person comes up with an idea;
another person develops it and makes it more awesome.

Martin

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Nov 17, 2011, 12:11:45 PM11/17/11
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I'm going to just bring up the possibility of getting a hack cat again.  The cat could then randomly rush around the hackspace with a copy of the rules that everyone has to read, because it printed on the side of a cute fluffy animal.  We could also train it to jump on sleeping ppl at certain times of the day to solve that problem too.

Kimball Johnson

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Nov 17, 2011, 12:21:47 PM11/17/11
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> We could also train it to jump on sleeping ppl at certain times of
> the day to solve that problem too.

*Train* and *cat* !

You have clearly not owed a cat!

Kimball (drrk)

Dave Ingram

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Nov 17, 2011, 12:31:13 PM11/17/11
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On 17/11/11 17:21, Kimball Johnson wrote:
 We could also train it to jump on sleeping ppl at certain times of
the day to solve that problem too.
*Train* and *cat* !

You have clearly not served a cat!

Kimball (drrk)
FTFY

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Nov 18, 2011, 3:51:27 AM11/18/11
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I`m hoping to resume the construction this Saturday, if not then I will
square things away on Sun/Mon.

Phil

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:16:47 -0000, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com>
wrote:


--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

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