LN2

[Russ Garrett]

I am disappointed, shocked, and fucking furious that it's taken a mere
ten hours for people to start pissing about with the liquid nitrogen.
Building liquid nitrogen bombs is dangerous, as well as being
profoundly antisocial in central London and quite likely to get us in
trouble with the police, especially as we've just moved in.

What's more, the members responsible had not even pledged for the
liquid nitrogen and hadn't received a safety briefing.

In case it's not abundantly clear, let me break it down for you:

1) Don't piss around with stuff you didn't pledge for without permission.
2) DON'T BUILD FUCKING BOMBS. SERIOUSLY.

I'll be in the space tonight and I'm liable to pour the whole lot
away, as members of this space are clearly not mature enough to deal
with it.

Those responsible will be hearing from the trustees personally.

Cheers,

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[David Murphy]

oh for fucks sake. 

I haven't been in for a couple of weeks but has a cage been made for the LN2 yet?

perhaps something similar to laser cutter rules for access

To whoever this was: 
This is why we can't have nice things.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/72404_700b.jpg

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[AlisonW]

"rules" were published, yet clearly some people are too thick & stupid to understand them. 

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad. Yes, really!

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[Akki]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[wyan std]

Can't believe this...

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[Toby Catlin]

I can, you gotta think how stupid the average person is and then realise half of them are more stupid than that.

This does boggle the mind, making very loud bangs in central London is going to get the bomb squad round faster that a flying piece of shrapnel and that would be the end of the Hackspace.

[AlisonW]

On 8 May 2013 19:43, Toby Catlin <to...@korfball.com> wrote:

I can, you gotta think how stupid the average person is and then realise half of them are more stupid than that.

> I guess I must be wrong then in thinking that hackspace members* are more sensible than average :'(

This does boggle the mind, making very loud bangs in central London is going to get the bomb squad round faster that a flying piece of shrapnel and that would be the end of the Hackspace.

> don't forget we're next to postal delivery office and gas storage tanks too

AlisonW

* if this wasn't done by members I hope they've been banned. 

[Tim Storey]

just ban them.
it might encourage a little more thought from others
\t

[Mark Steward]

"pour encourager les autres"

[Benjamin Blundell]

Yes, there was a cage built. No I was not secure from tampering. I figured that the main risk was of people knocking it, and of children (think open days) messing with it. I figured anyone who was serious enough to actually get in, would get in. we have tools and lockpicks. The idea was to show that its a serious thing and shouldnt be messed with.

No other tools are locked as yet (AC Node will change that, yes) and I hoped, people would get the message, as its clearly posted on the window behind the dewar.

Considering the effort that has gone into getting this, the severity of what could have gone wrong, an automatic ban should be made immediately.

[Benjamin Blundell]

I'll proceed in putting a lid on the cage as soon as possible if its not been done already. I've been incredibly busy this week and have devoted a reasonable amount of time to sorting this out (including lots of after hours reading on safety ironically enough). Guess I didnt figure I'd be contending with children quite yet.

[Tim Reynolds]

Russ has fitted a lid tonight, no rush on that for now.

[Charles]

Hey Guys, 

With deep regret I must inform you all that I was the one who played with the LN2. 
As many of you know me in person you also know that I rarely visit the Hackspace mailing list. 
It was for this reason that I was not aware of the rules published regarding the use of LN2. 

I drew about 20-30 ml from the tank into a plastic bottle, closed the lid and threw it up in the car park. The bottle exploded on its descent about 5 meters in the air. 
It was curiosity that lead me through this activity, and had I realised the implications of my actions I wouldn't have touched the canister in the first place. 

London Hackspace is literally the reason I decided to stay in this country and also the reason why my visa allows this. I only have good intentions for the welfare of this place, and for me to risk tarnishing the Hackspace name in our new neighbourhood brings me deep remorse.

Furthermore, I'm deeply sorry to those I have offended by using the liquid nitrogen that I did not pledge for. 

Sincerely, 

Charles Duffy

[AlisonW]

It is not for me to comment on punishment but "curiosity" killed the cat and could have been very injurious to you and others. It is not an excuse. If it had been concentrated acid would you have done this to see what might happen? Of course not, thus I conclude you had some expectation of what the result might be.

I also presume others might have been in the space? If so, they should share in your guilt by not preventing your dangerous actions.

AlisonW

-- Sent from my HP TouchPad. Yes, really!

[Akki]

Charles,

I deeply admire your work.

However this is entirely reckless behaviour. I'm sure you feel guilt and are very sorry for what you have done but it doesn't excuse the fact that basically you were arseing around with dangerous materials you had no business messing with and no training for.
This is seriously against the rules.

I'd love to join in with the flaming torches and pitchforks over the "shared guilt" but sometimes you tell people to NOT do something repeatedly and they still goddamn do it. There'd not be a Grievance Procedure [1] to be followed if people always followed the rules and always did as they were told by others. Actually I'd bet that this was over and done with in mere minutes before most people knew what was going on or happening but I don't know.

I really don't see how we're suppose to trust anyone in the Hackspace around possibly dangerous, but awesome, stuff if someone like yourself won't even take common sense precautions in regards to dangerous materials. You endangered yourself, others and possibly the whole Hackspace especially as... what would have happened to everything in the Space had that blown inside and not outside? Or anyone near by. Or any equipment nearby.  Geeze, dude... I just have no more words for this besides I'm deeply disappointed in you. Shame on you.

~Akki

[1] http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure

[codeoclock]

"Don't mess with liquid nitrogen" is common sense. However, it's probably a good idea to put a notice up next to the LN2 just in case someone has a lapse of judgement, lack of common sense, and hasn't seen the mailing list. I get that we shouldn't have to, it should totally be obvious, but we may as well put up a sign.

I haven't seen the LN2 yet (and I don't have plans to) so there may be a sign already. If so, ignore this.

On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:47:47 UTC+1, Russ Garrett wrote:

[cromiumlake]

Oh Please... Stop playing silly.

* In the first place it should of been labelled correctly and without expecting to anyone to read the damn mailing list

* It should of been properly locked, and placed in a different area than the social area. Sometimes are kids and visitors!!!!

* I hope to those that decided to bring such a dangerous material  are properly ensured and/or licensed, because I imagine that in case of an accident HackSpace will be legally liable

If you are so concerned about the future of the Space, why don't you  ban the guys who bought, put it there without a note and in the social area it in the first place!!!!! (common sense?). We are lucky that nothing bad actually happen.

...Do you really truly believe that punishment is the way to go?, 

Don't you think that there is other-ways to handle this other situations?

You should notice that as a difference with some of you he did not hide his hands, learn something from the situation and avoid this to happen again.

[Tim Reynolds]

On 9 May 2013, at 02:15, cromiumlake <cromi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh Please... Stop playing silly.
>

You first.

> * In the first place it should of been labelled correctly and without expecting to anyone to read the damn mailing list

The safety information from the wiki was printed out and stuck to the front of the locked guard cage around the dewar.

> * It should of been properly locked, and placed in a different area than the social area. Sometimes are kids and visitors!!!!

It is locked up. It's near the roller door precisely because its a safe place for it to vent.

> * I hope to those that decided to bring such a dangerous material are properly ensured and/or licensed, because I imagine that in case of an accident HackSpace will be legally liable

It was discussed at length and safety precautions have been taken. They were bypassed.

[cromiumlake]

Sure measures where taken after it actually happen

[Charles]

Alison,
No one else in the space should share my guilt. If anyone in the space felt that I put them at risk I have no doubt that they would have informed me. I performed the experiment in a controlled manor; from the moment I poured the liquid to the moment I threw the bottle, with a trajectory on course for the middle point of the empty car park. What I did and how I did it was not dangerous at all.

Your understanding of the event has been lost in speculation. My apology is for taking the liquid nitrogen without permission from the pledgers, and for causing a large noise in the car park possibly disrupting the newly forming impression we're bestowing onto our neighbourhood.

Akki,
I’m sorry you’re disappointed in me and I truly appreciate your admiration for my work.
You’re right, the event took no longer than one and a half minutes.
You’re 100% wrong in saying that I endangered myself, others and “possibly the whole Hackspace". You weren’t there, so how can you justify these slanderous claims.

If anyone wants to discuss the situation with me I’d much prefer it in person, in the space, where I’m there nearly every day.

Sincerely,
Charles Duffy    

[Ian Lewis]

Guys

One of the things I am starting to hate about the Hackspace (and I'm starting to see why people avoid IRC and the mailing list) is the way things drag on out of all proportion.

Charles did something silly.

Russ, justifiably, on behalf of the trustees (as the 'ruling' body) made his point, advised that sanctions were taken and the person concerned would be spoken to.

Charles apologised (the best thing he can do as the event has passed and hindsight is a wonderful thing).

Why does everyone else need to queue up and beat him with a stick?  Will it change what happened, no!  Will it make people think twice, probably not, Russ' mail would have done that.

There are times when people just need to let things go and not 'drag the bone around the garden'!

Ian

[David Sullivan]

On Thursday, 9 May 2013 02:55:29 UTC+1, cromiumlake wrote:

Sure measures where taken after it actually happen

Untrue.

 

[Nick Johnson]

I concur. Can we skip the witch hunt and leave consequences to the trustees?

-Nick

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[Metz]

Agree with Ian 100%

[Akki]

Sorry everyone

On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 17:47:47 UTC+1, Russ Garrett wrote:

[Benjamin Blundell]

One point I will raise here, that is not clear to everyone, and wasn't to me, is one of legality. If this had happened in any kind of institution (even something as simple as you seem to describe) repurcussions for the group would occur - health and safety executive being one! We are bigger now, and more public than ever before which means we have responsibilities. In addition, if others see what you do, that has implications - such as what people deem is acceptable. This is where accidents and problems arise. Your actions have consequences that are greater than I think you realise.

This was bound to happen at some point and Im glad its earlier rather than later because we need to come down heavy and set these expectations.

Finally, USE THE TOOLS I'VE PROVIDED! And dont be a dick! I'm still quite fucking angry, given the effort I went to, sorting this out.

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