Thief in the workshop

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camo....@gmail.com

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Oct 17, 2013, 5:26:39 AM10/17/13
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Hi everybody,

Yesterday night my laptop has been stolen in the workshop while I was talking with somebody. We think we saw the thief and even got his face on one of the CCTV camera. It is someone that has been here before. It is not a member, and we think he follows member through the main door when they are coming in or going out.
The police might come to see the footage today (in the afternoon, I think) so don't freak out if you see policemen around the Hackspace.
Cheers,
Camille

Matt Peperell

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Oct 17, 2013, 5:48:50 AM10/17/13
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Is it worthwhile having a photo list of personae non gratae by each of the doors? I'm hoping that won't be inviting too much nuclear fall-out.


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Regards,

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Morris

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Oct 17, 2013, 5:53:25 AM10/17/13
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How sickening, I'm sorry to hear you had your laptop stolen. I actually feel sick for you. Horrible indeed.
>
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Tom Sands

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Oct 17, 2013, 5:56:03 AM10/17/13
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I'm with you on this. Whilst I don't want to stir up a great big pot of paranoia it is very evident that this person should not be welcome, especially not on any day that isn't a Tuesday.

Tonight I'll print a reminder by the door that non-members arriving not on open days should not be let in without prior appointment, and if they are let in someone must be responsible for them.

If I see someone I don't know or who I don't recognise as a member in the space I will politely ask them who they are.

Matt Peperell

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:19:11 AM10/17/13
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That's a good idea. I've been thinking about door policy for a while anyway. 

Whilst security is one aspect (highlighted by this thread), the other aspect in my mind is that of hospitality. Both on Tuesdays and not, I see people who open the door to people and then walk away, frequently without uttering a word. This, without checking whether the person is a member, guest, visitor, whether they want a tour etc.  My concern is not that the door-opening person doesn't give a tour or even a brief introduction (I realise that not all people want to do this - whether through being busy, social anxiety, disinclination or any other reason) - but that they don't seek out someone who will. The guest is just standing there looking bewildered.  I've seen this myself on multiple occasions and had to step in. 

A rule such as "don't open the door unless a) the person at the door is a member, b) you are willing to welcome them, c) are willing to find someone who will" is perhaps draconian, but there'll be a lesser version which will help to maintain security and ensure that guests are welcomed. I'd welcome input on this. Think back to when you first came to the space. Were you welcomed in (whether or not a full blown tour) or did you have to ask someone?

William Beaufoy

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:31:11 AM10/17/13
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+1 for photo list. If one guy knows he can steal stuff from here it can only get worse unless we take action.

Martin (Crypt)

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:33:37 AM10/17/13
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I think thats fair.  I do remember about a year ago a discussion on this issue that got pretty heated.  I think the basic rule you suggested is good though, that it should be up to individual members to decide if they want to open the door and if they do, then they are responsible for welcoming them and giving them a tour if they want it.  If people aren't willing to do that then the person should just be left outside.  There are several things that can be done to improve security though.  Buzzers on the doors, so people are warned when they are open, and sufficiently annoyed by the constant tone to get up and shut the door.  Making sure the doors close properly by themselves.  At risk of starting a bikeshed here, it might be a good idea to come up with some ideas to improve general security

Simon Howes

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:34:23 AM10/17/13
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I have a feeling even if he doesn't return we can be expecting his scumbag mates to be emboldened by his adventure and pitching up at the door next...

Be vigilant

Charles Yarnold

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:35:13 AM10/17/13
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Just before the lynch mob starts to take up pitch forks, it's worth pointing out that though we currently have a possible suspect, the only evidence is circumstantial. No one saw the theft itself (human or camera) so currently we don't know for sure either way it was them.

Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:43:58 AM10/17/13
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While i totally agree with people being responsible for whoever they let
in, we have no way of policing that and no way of enforcing it. People
that disagree with the policy can let anyone in at any time and leave
them to their own devices. The previous discussion on entry policies
made it very clear that a lot of people would do just that. I can only
hope that the next thing stolen is theirs, and it is expensive and
irreplaceable.

I think door closers, more cameras and just general vigilance from the
non-moron segment of the membership are the only things we can really
do.
>> [1].
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>> Matt Peperell
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Monty

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Oct 17, 2013, 7:49:53 AM10/17/13
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I've added this to the http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Lost_and_found#Recently with the idea being it should help track how bad of a problem we have with things going missing.

Fuxy

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:11:21 AM10/17/13
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We're not a small group anymore. I know as hackers we value our privacy but we either

1. Need to cover the entire space with cameras

OR

2. Make say a raspberry pi take a photo every time the door is open / people detected in front of it

That would actually get us a photo of the person at least so we have something to post on the wall.

For the ones concerned with privacy we could just keep it for say max 1 week and then automatically delete it. Doesn't even need to be connected to the network though you would kinda like to keep the footage in a remote location in case the thief tries to steel that as well.

Just an idea don't want to start a flame war.

Jonty Wareing

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:14:06 AM10/17/13
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Thanks Monty, this is a great initiative.

Please make sure you list things on this page if you have something go
missing.

--jonty
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Jonty Wareing

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:16:15 AM10/17/13
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We have been aware for some time that we need to have working cameras
covering the car park and entrances. We'll be getting this sorted in
the very near future.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fuxy" <ciu...@gmail.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 17 October, 2013 1:11:21 PM
> Subject: [london-hack-space] Re: Thief in the workshop

Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:16:36 AM10/17/13
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While taking a picture each time the door is opened is maybe too far, I
think decent CCTV coverage of all entry/exit points is a great start.

We've grown to the point where we can no longer cater to the paranoid
fantasies of some of the membership. No one gives a shit about you, no
one wants to steal your secrets. You are no one and nothing. Get over
the cameras.
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Tom Hodder

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:26:50 AM10/17/13
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On 17 October 2013 13:16, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:

While taking a picture each time the door is opened is maybe too far, I think decent CCTV coverage of all entry/exit points is a great start.

+1

If you have low physical security, then you must have high retrospective accountability.
 

Russ Garrett

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:42:22 AM10/17/13
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I think we should avoid kneejerk reactions. The fact is that the
presence of CCTV doesn't really act as a deterrent (as this case
proves), and few stolen items actually get returned on the basis of
CCTV.

I think we could do with a few more cameras in the space, but let's
not go crazy about it.

Russ

On 17 October 2013 13:16, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:
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Benjamin Blundell

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:43:46 AM10/17/13
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It was a point I raised before the move; the security of our unit is not something I think our community as a whole, has come to terms with. Our location, in comparison to Cremer is less secure, with more foot traffic, in an area of London not exactly crime free. Our increased visibility makes us more of a target.

Cameras have been an issue for a long time. While I would not be as forthright as Tim, the key issue with cameras is members retain the rights, the ownership of that system, unlike the cameras we hear all about in the news. Its a subtle yet important difference, especially to us as hackers. Also, unlike the CCTV issue (and similar) the hackspace community has had this discussion.

We've begun to lock the doors when we go out (a previous thread) and that should continue. Outside of tuesday nights, I'd urge everyone not to give out any information on, say, the padlock code (I've been asked this a few times) or leave the backdoor open.

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.


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chrisbob12

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Oct 17, 2013, 8:51:00 AM10/17/13
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Commiserations to Camille, having your laptop stolen is a rotten experience. Hope you get some success.

A question for members: how secure do we expect the Hackspace to be? As secure as a pub, work, home? From my POV I hardly know anybody, so I'd have no chance of spotting non members.

Ian Henderson

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:29:11 AM10/17/13
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This may also explain some of the other stuff that's gone missing in the last few weeks, DVD screen, speakers etc.

I'm in favour of increased security and reasonable monitoring

Ian

Tom Hodder

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:33:15 AM10/17/13
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On 17 October 2013 13:42, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
The fact is that the presence of CCTV doesn't really act as a deterrent

I heard that having a full size cut-out of a police officer in a visible place, acts a a deterrent to opportunistic thefts.

Hence, it's only logical, that the following invention might well do the trick.... (full size, in the middle of the general area...)




scroll down...








Inline images 1














 
Scale-Predator.png

Monty

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:49:06 AM10/17/13
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DVD screen?

Mark Steward

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:50:20 AM10/17/13
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HDMI screen.


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Nick Johnson

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:53:17 AM10/17/13
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:
It was a point I raised before the move; the security of our unit is not something I think our community as a whole, has come to terms with. Our location, in comparison to Cremer is less secure, with more foot traffic, in an area of London not exactly crime free. Our increased visibility makes us more of a target.

Cameras have been an issue for a long time. While I would not be as forthright as Tim, the key issue with cameras is members retain the rights, the ownership of that system, unlike the cameras we hear all about in the news. Its a subtle yet important difference, especially to us as hackers. Also, unlike the CCTV issue (and similar) the hackspace community has had this discussion.

We've begun to lock the doors when we go out (a previous thread) and that should continue. Outside of tuesday nights, I'd urge everyone not to give out any information on, say, the padlock code (I've been asked this a few times) or leave the backdoor open.

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.

What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

-Nick

Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 9:59:10 AM10/17/13
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Take them to Tesla and show them how to de-register the old card, or
just refuse them entry. It's hard, but eh.
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tgreer

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:00:52 AM10/17/13
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As Tim says. And if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't answer the door. Simple as really. You wouldn't let some random stranger into your home without checking if they should be there... why would you do the same at the hackspace?

Nick Johnson

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:03:45 AM10/17/13
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 3:00 PM, tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
As Tim says. And if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't answer the door. Simple as really. You wouldn't let some random stranger into your home without checking if they should be there... why would you do the same at the hackspace?

It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

And the obligatory your-metaphor-is-flawed response: I know everyone who's allowed access to my home on sight. I can't say the same about the hackspace.

-Nick

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tom

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:08:07 AM10/17/13
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>What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

something like "Prove it" would work. Also given that it generally requires an oyster card to get to the space as well as getting in I'd say "i left my card behind" is unlikely

Monty

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:09:22 AM10/17/13
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If you wanted to you could ask for their name and check it against the member's list, even ask for ID if you doubt them telling the truth.

Matt Peperell

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:11:12 AM10/17/13
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> It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

This is true. But the majority of members will have oyster cards. The forgetting should happen sufficiently rarely that those members who are asked will hopefully appreciate the benefit of improved security.
Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

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chrisbob12

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:19:13 AM10/17/13
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Good question. How hard would it be to compare the number of oyster cards on the door system, with the number of current members? Do the cards of ex-members get removed?

Russ Garrett

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:21:14 AM10/17/13
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On 17 October 2013 15:19, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Good question. How hard would it be to compare the number of oyster cards on the door system, with the number of current members? Do the cards of ex-members get removed?

It's fully automatic. Only paying members' cards are on the system.

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Jonty Wareing

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:21:58 AM10/17/13
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We can do this fairly easily. Ex-members don't get removed, but the card
becomes deactivated.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "chrisbob12" <chris...@yahoo.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com

Tom Hodder

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:25:06 AM10/17/13
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On 17 October 2013 14:53, Nick Johnson <arac...@notdot.net> wrote:

I've begun to question anybody who wants to get in through the front door if I'm the one to answer it. I think we all must adopt a firmer yet polite "you are not a member, I dont know you, I cannot let you in" attitude.

What do you do if someone says "I'm a member but (I left my card behind / my card is broken / my card was stolen)"?

It would be easier to follow the rules during these awkward situations if there was a poster by the door saying something along the lines of:

"Due to a recent theft,
the consensus of the group
was to ask for ID upon entry.

Please don't be offended 
to be asked to scan-in, 
or give your name so it 
can be checked against 
the members list"










 

chrisbob12

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:38:26 AM10/17/13
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Excellent. So it should be easy to get an accurate picture of how many members have registered oyster cards.

If one were to consider a door policy, it probably boils down to swipe in, or something more fiddly if you don't have an oyster card. Would it be onerous to require all members to have an oyster card and register it?

Paul Dart

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:47:31 AM10/17/13
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Is this not missing the point somewhat?

My mate Mr Theivey McRobber has seen some lovely expensive kit on the open day (when he got a lovely tour and all the expensive good stuff was pointed out to him), and only has to pay £5, relatively anonymously to become a member and can have free reign for a month or until he gets stopped. Sweet.

I think the solution is that people just keep an eye on their personal property and challenge anyone seen to be leaving with anything obviously expensive. Easy said than done, but I don't think just stopping non-members will necessarily solve the problem.

Another solution might be to start kensington locking things and having some available to use around the space. Obviously it doesn't stop people, but it discourages oppertunistic thieves, and also means its more obvious if someone is trying to remove something.

Cheers,
Paul

On 17 October 2013 15:38, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Excellent. So it should be easy to get an accurate picture of how many members have registered oyster cards.

If one were to consider a door policy, it probably boils down to swipe in, or something more fiddly if you don't have an oyster card. Would it be onerous to require all members to have an oyster card and register it?

chrisbob12

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:56:17 AM10/17/13
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Not missing the point. It would be a perverse crim who gave his bank account details to become a member, thus laying a trail to follow post crime.

Jonty Wareing

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:58:02 AM10/17/13
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You can pay in cash in a bank to the correct reference number, you don't
need to set up a standing order. A few members do this.

--jonty


----- Original Message -----
> From: "chrisbob12" <chris...@yahoo.com>
> To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 17 October, 2013 3:56:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Thief in the workshop

Nigel Worsley

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:58:22 AM10/17/13
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> It would be a perverse crim who gave his bank account details to become a
> member, thus laying a trail to follow post crime.

Unless he is also into identity theft...

Nigle

chrisbob12

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:00:23 AM10/17/13
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Fair enough, I didn't know that.

Colin Cooper

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:05:07 AM10/17/13
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Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

Yes.

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:06:10 AM10/17/13
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Good, but a warning alone does not suffice. It would be relying on
several stages we've been flawed at before. Namely confrontation in the
first place (in asking for ID), following up on the request (and
checking that ID against the members list) and ensuring it's followed
through on (confronting again if it doesn't match).

Plus some members have in the past said they use pseudonyms for
security, so ID won't match the members list.

May I suggest that we get a guest-book?
IE; If you're let in without your access-card, you must sign the
guest-book with an explanation for not having your card and provide
photo ID to match the guest-book name provided, as well as the name of
the person who authorised your entry. And make it mandatory so there's
no room for people to sweet-talk or argue their way into not having to
do so.

We could probably also benefit from the doorbell triggering image
retention on the CCTV, so we have an automatic event-tagged visual
record of who's requesting entry without an access card. It would also
provide material to cross-reference with the entries in the guest-book
to ensure it's being used and ID security holes (those who let people in
without checking them).

On 17/10/2013 15:25, Tom Hodder wrote:
> On 17 October 2013 14:53, Nick Johnson <arac...@notdot.net

Clare Greenhalgh

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:08:05 AM10/17/13
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The guest book would obviously need to be electronic and remotely stored so it can't go walkies... but what an excellent idea!



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Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:09:35 AM10/17/13
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A guest book is less than useless. Challenging people and being vigilant is the only solution and that is reliant on people actually doing it rather than taking the path of least resistance and just letting anyone in who knocks.

Clare Greenhalgh

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:14:37 AM10/17/13
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Why do you say the guest book would be worse than useless.... I don't think we mean a nice pretty one you have at the door of fancy buildings....!

Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:16:30 AM10/17/13
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Members are reluctant to even ask people ringing the doorbell if they are members. If anyone thinks they're going to march people to a book, ask them to produce ID and sign in I don't even know what to say. 

Clare Greenhalgh

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:19:10 AM10/17/13
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Then maybe they should not answer the door at all.

Tim Reynolds

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Oct 17, 2013, 11:20:03 AM10/17/13
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An ideal solution. 

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Oct 17, 2013, 12:41:33 PM10/17/13
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At risk of repeating myself, merely challenging is flawed as without
mandatory logging it is also both unenforceable and without accountability.

Letting someone in without their access card or gate-code is essentially
over-riding the primary security system of the space. Events like that
need to be logged.

Russ Garrett

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Oct 17, 2013, 12:45:57 PM10/17/13
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At the risk of repeating what Tim has said, if people aren't currently
challenging visitors at the door then there's no chance in hell that
we'll be able to get them to do more than that. All your guest book
idea is going to do is prove this.
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Oct 17, 2013, 12:49:36 PM10/17/13
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So would just need a fairly dumb computer terminal by the front & back
doors.

Might be something for the "Haccess point" terminal idea, or Jonty's
automated sign-up station.

On 17/10/2013 16:08, Clare Greenhalgh wrote:
> The guest book would obviously need to be electronic and remotely stored
> so it can't go walkies... but what an excellent idea!
>
>
> On 17 October 2013 16:06, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com

Patrick Dent

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Oct 17, 2013, 3:44:37 PM10/17/13
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On the subject of 'Prove it', maybe ask them what the code is for the padlock on the back gate. Granted, this isn't foolproof as some people who primarily use oysters only come and go before the shutters go own anyway. But at least people who are members should be able to sign into the website to prove that they're members to some degree.

Also, on the subject of space security, the gates to 445 were wide open for significant lengths of time on Tuesday night.

On Thursday, 17 October 2013 10:26:39 UTC+1, camo....@gmail.com wrote:
Hi everybody,

Yesterday night my laptop has been stolen in the workshop while I was talking with somebody. We think we saw the thief and even got his face on one of the CCTV camera. It is someone that has been here before. It is not a member, and we think he follows member through the main door when they are coming in or going out.
The police might come to see the footage today (in the afternoon, I think) so don't freak out if you see policemen around the Hackspace.
Cheers,
Camille

andyf...@gmail.com

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Oct 17, 2013, 4:12:35 PM10/17/13
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On Thursday, October 17, 2013 3:11:12 PM UTC+1, mattp wrote:
> It was an honest question - there's no obvious way to tell if someone is a member or not when they knock.

Ask them to login to the hackspace members page on Tesla if they claim to be a member and have forgotton their card
 
This is true. But the majority of members will have oyster cards. The forgetting should happen sufficiently rarely that those members who are asked will hopefully appreciate the benefit of improved security.
Do we have many members who don't have oyster cards? (at all, I mean, rather than just not having one on our member database)

I don't, I use the mifare card my employer gave me

Andy

Nick Johnson

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Oct 17, 2013, 4:22:31 PM10/17/13
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Now if an intruder wants to know the padlock code, he just has to ask you to prove your identity to him. :)

-Nick


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tom k&e

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:40:21 PM10/17/13
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We need some sort of shibboleet

Tom Hodder

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Oct 17, 2013, 6:50:40 PM10/17/13
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On 17 October 2013 23:40, tom k&e <tomf...@gmail.com> wrote:
We need some sort of shibboleet

Ask them to identify some random component out of a tray near the door... 

 


Alex Beckett

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Oct 17, 2013, 10:20:13 PM10/17/13
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I really like the guest book idea or at least some form of formal process. The problem with people answering the door at the moment is that unless they're a hackspace power user they probably have no way of knowing how to verify someone. I know as a relative newbie I wouldn't have a clue other then to ask them out right if they were a member and quiz them on what they were working on.

If there was a formal process written down by the door it would be a lot easier to follow.

We do obviously also have the problem of shoulder surfing which would probably be any crims next try. Do we need to make it a rule that everyone swipes before being let in?

Chris Brasted

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Oct 18, 2013, 2:59:18 AM10/18/13
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'Power user' - nice distinction

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Penguin

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Oct 18, 2013, 3:01:03 AM10/18/13
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Ask them the first rule of the hackspace....oh we painted that on the wall outside.

Plan b:
Cameras on the doors. Motion triggered. Stored for a fortnite.

Plan c: everyone must wear labcoats.

Ian Lewis

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Oct 18, 2013, 3:02:35 AM10/18/13
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is it worth posting the picture of the 'suspect' on a user accessible only page, in case someone can identify him/her either to substantiate or eliminate them from the equation?

Renato Lopes

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Oct 18, 2013, 4:37:38 AM10/18/13