Grievance Procedure Update - Margarita Formina banned for 6 months

[Samb1]

Dear Members,

 

We are sad to inform you that Margarita Fomina's 6 month ban for repeated sleeping will begin at  9am Monday 14th March 2016 and conclude 9am Wednesday 14th September 2016. If she needs to retrieve anything from the Hackspace during this time, he will need to make arrangements with the trustees first.

 

This decision was made on the 12th March after she continued to sleep here after repeated informal warnings and first and second formal warnings on 12th Jan 2015 and 25th Feb 2016 respectively, for breaking rule 6 by repeatedly sleeping at the space.

 

We didn't take this decision lightly, and we expect that some of you will have questions. The remainder of this email outlines our reasons for finally agreeing (unanimously) on this unfortunate ban.

 

We don't think there is any need to explain (or repeat the reasoning behind) the no sleeping rule as there has been much talk of it on the mailing list recently, but if anyone would like to read about it can find the rules here:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules

And some of the history behind this particular one here: 

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Sleeping_in_Hackspace

 

<<Why a ban?>

Margarita has been found asleep in the Hackspace on a very large number of occasions over the past few months . She has been spoken to about it by various members, and at least 2 Trustees, and she have given various excuses.
We are very aware that sometimes people nod off, and most members to  whom this occurs acknowledge the behaviour and adjust accordingly, but she has ignored all of our warnings and continued regardless. 

<<Conditions of the ban>>

The ban will begin 9am Monday 14th March 2016 and conclude 9am Wednesday 14th September 2016.

She will be allowed two weeks following the commencement of the ban to arrange for her yard project to be moved off site.

During this time she may only enter the premises under the supervision of one of the trustees and only in order to assist in the projects removal.

After this time if her project or materials remain on site they will be marked with a notice of disposal as per the LHS storage system process.

Samantha Thompson

On behalf of the London Hackspace Trustees

[Tim Reynolds]

Does the ban start at 9am so she can get a good nights sleep? 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Scooby]

Hello all, today when arrived at the space i was informed by another member that Margarita had received a six month ban for being caught sleeping/living at the space, after checking and reading the update on the mailing list, i decided to go in person to inform Margarita of this as i thought that she was unaware of this at the time as she appeared to be happy and smiling whilst on and using the communal PC, her response was  very aggressive and she told me to go away continually three times in a row, which i did, a few hours later while in the yard Margarita was working quite frantically and she was obviously trying to complete her trailer house due to her circumstances, the area to me looked like a complete trash and mess and i was under the impression that she just wanted to finish house today and then to make a quick bye bye up yours exit, i also notice that she was piling up a large amount of scrap wood up against the fence by the fire bin, when ask why she was putting that there she replied the it was rubbish and that it was non of my business and to get lost, it told her that she couldn't put that there as i was trying to keep the place clean and tidy and that she should take it elsewhere, she replied that i should get my servant to come and remove it then, i also asked her that she should make sure before she leaves that she should sweep up after herself and to make sure her working was left clean and tide to which she started swearing and becoming very aggressive towards calling me every name in the french dictionary whist waking towards me in anger and in a pose to fight with me, this completely shocked me and i have never been confronted by a woman in this way so simply had no choice but to back off, this was very disturbing and in all honesty the outcome would of been extremely different had this woman been a man or a zombie, so i let it be known that i am very upset regarding this incident, and hope to never have to cross paths with this woman/man ever again.

Beware all (including men) thank you Scooby.

[Lex Robinson]

You may not have noticed be since you were pretty busy screaming into Margarita's face, but I saw the tail end of this confrontation since I was in the caravan at the time.

I can confirm that she was shouting, but I would be shouting if faced with someone as aggressive as you were, screaming sexist obscenities at her, telling her she was useless and threatening to come back and throw everything she owned away. You only left after she threatened to "call the police on you", and the way you left was driving off in your van very slowly shouting "fuck you".

You seem to have decided that you're the Hackspace police, but this is not how you should be going about it.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016, 18:50 Scooby, <mk1ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all, today when arrived at the space i was informed by another member that Margarita had received a six month ban for being caught sleeping/living at the space, after checking and reading the update on the mailing list, i decided to go in person to inform Margarita of this as i thought that she was unaware of this at the time as she appeared to be happy and smiling whilst on and using the communal PC, her response was  very aggressive and she told me to go away continually three times in a row, which i did, a few hours later while in the yard Margarita was working quite frantically and she was obviously trying to complete her trailer house due to her circumstances, the area to me looked like a complete trash and mess and i was under the impression that she just wanted to finish house today and then to make a quick bye bye up yours exit, i also notice that she was piling up a large amount of scrap wood up against the fence by the fire bin, when ask why she was putting that there she replied the it was rubbish and that it was non of my business and to get lost, it told her that she couldn't put that there as i was trying to keep the place clean and tidy and that she should take it elsewhere, she replied that i should get my servant to come and remove it then, i also asked her that she should make sure before she leaves that she should sweep up after herself and to make sure her working was left clean and tide to which she started swearing and becoming very aggressive towards calling me every name in the french dictionary whist waking towards me in anger and in a pose to fight with me, this completely shocked me and i have never been confronted by a woman in this way so simply had no choice but to back off, this was very disturbing and in all honesty the outcome would of been extremely different had this woman been a man or a zombie, so i let it be known that i am very upset regarding this incident, and hope to never have to cross paths with this woman/man ever again.

Beware all (including men) thank you Scooby.

[Scooby]

I only gave her the same abuse as she was throwing at me, your version only confirms that she was shouting, she was the one that started swearing and abusing towards me and once i left, she didn't have to follow me along the line of the fence whilst sticker her center finger up at me and telling me that she was not moving her trailer and that she was awarded 2 weeks to finish it by Sam, all i was doing was challenging her each time at her own game, she had her back to the caravan you say you were observing from all this time and from what you are saying you saw you seem to be making most of what you said up, yes she threaten to call the police and accuse me of abuse and isn't that so easy to be believed, when infact she was the one who was and stated all the abusing, if you were so concerned why didn't you feel free a play the Mr Police Hackspace Police Man then, instead of trying to shame and blame me as you've always done.

Thanks Scooby.

[Samb1]

Hi,

Can I please refer to the original conditions of the ban as announced at the start of the thread:

"

<<Conditions of the ban>>

The ban will begin 9am Monday 14th March 2016 and conclude 9am Wednesday 14th September 2016.

She will be allowed two weeks following the commencement of the ban to arrange for her yard project to be moved off site.

During this time she may only enter the premises under the supervision of one of the trustees and only in order to assist in the projects removal.

After this time if her project or materials remain on site they will be marked with a notice of disposal as per the LHS storage system process.

"

So:
Her ban starts at 9am tomorrow. She has 2 weeks to arrange for it to be shifted but can't be on site during that time except under supervision of a trustee.
Nothing about that has changed.

Scooby can you just please avoid any further interaction/confrontation during this obviously difficult process. Your comments and actions aren't really helping the current situation and some of the things you've said here are just downright offensive in my opinion, regardless of whether it's in retaliation or not.

[Lex Robinson]

I only came out after you two had been shouting at each other loud enough that I thought the rowdy drunks from out front had come around the back. I therefore cannot comment on who started what, but I do know that your behavior was not what I would expect from a senior member of the hackspace.

[Scooby]

Hello Samb1, can you confirm that Margarita will not be permitted to re enter the space to finish the work on her trailer house in the next two weeks period for clarity? as this was the argument we had early today and she referenced your permission in doing so. 

Thanks Scooby.

[Samb1]

As per the ban conditions, she is not permitted to enter the space after 9am tomorrow except to assist in removal of the project.

[dw]

Hi,

As a lurker for the past few months considering joining the space, this
kind of thing puts me off completely. The trustees might improve the
space for all by considering a more agressive strategy of permanently
banning everyone involved in any of these threads, the behaviour is
utterly unacceptable on all fronts. This is schoolyard stuff, it's
pathetic.

It might be worth reminding everyone involved that these lists are
indexed and publically readable, including by non-members and future
employers.


David

[Scooby]

Hi Sam1, and thanks for your super quick reply can you also confirm that if she breaks rule 6 again tonight as you could clearly now see live and below, will her ban be extended or will she be exempt yet again.

Thanks Scooby.

[Adrian Godwin]

Hi David,

Yes, it's public. But it happens. Why should we hide it ? We're not a corporate PR department . I can see some advantages in throwing out everyone who's a bit offensive, but we try to be reasonable and give them every opportunity to reform.

They're not ignored or given free reign - many of the people involved here have received one or more warnings and may

well be banned if they continue to offend.

Some hackspaces do separate internal issues from the public mailing lists. I'm glad we don't, I prefer the warts'n'all approach.

[Stefan Sabo]

I don't want judge any side. It's fact, as Margarita lots of time was really rude to other members (especially when they have issue with sleeping, snoring, etc.) and I personally had conflict wi her, which was witnessed at least one Trustee. She is temperament, and sometimes hard to manage her behaviour from other. Also Scooby was at past warned about specific behaviour in approach to members, but it is long time ago.
I can imagine, as discussion was, especially after previous night incident more then at gentle row...

What attract my attention is, quote Scooby:

"
and telling me that she was not moving her trailer and that she was awarded 2 weeks to finish it by Sam,
"

It's this true? If yes, how is possible as members are not informed about specific change of ban conditions? Or it is only her imagination and misunderstanding of 2 weeks time to get off project from HS promises?



pondělí 14. března 2016 1:17:10 UTC Adrian Godwin napsal(a):

[Andy Smith]

Hi Stefan,

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:37:26PM -0700, Stefan Sabo wrote:
> What attract my attention is, quote Scooby:
>
> "and telling me that she was not moving her trailer and that she was awarded 2 weeks to finish it by Sam"
>

> It's this true?

The ruling has been repeatedly and clearly stated here on this list,
so I recommend that you believe that rather than Person A's
recollection of what Person B said to them face to face.

It seems like it is just needlessly increasing trustee workload to
have them have to keep repeating themselves and this really isn't a
complicated ruling! Banned persons are likely to be motivated to
creatively interpret rulings, and there can be misunderstandings.
It's going to be easier for your sanity to believe what's been
written here over that. Trustee communication regarding bans has
always been very clear and open.

If on the other hand you witness behaviour that's not in line with
the ruling as described on this list then I recommend you tell the
trustees about that.

I think it's great that you are regularly reporting problems that
you see around the space. For the very serious things you report
though, the first thing that people tend to ask you is "have you
reported this to the trustees?" and then there doesn't tend to be a
response to that from you.

So, I'm thinking that for the serious things where a complaint to
the trustees would be appropriate (sleeping in the space, violent
and/or aggressive behaviour, etc.), it would be good if you could
(a) formally report that, and (b) clearly state that you have done
this.

Cheers,
Andy

[matthew aspinall]

Hi, does anyone have a way of contacting Margarita? I know she's in a desperate situation with housing, and was relying on building her 'house on wheels'
Personaly I'm not suprised she reacted poorly to having some one that's not a trustie decide it was 'his job' to mouth off at her. Who wouldnt?
I know that trailer and timber represents pretty much all the money she had; therefor I'd be prepared to put walls and a roof on it. Ive been homeless, in another country,
without support. Wouldn't wish it on anybody. If nobody has any means of contact I might well continue it anyway. If she comes back she'll need it, if not I'm sure we could find a use for it.

[tim_n]

If you do, be prepared to strip it back to the bare essentials, when I was looking at it on sunday it looked positively dangerous.  I'd certainly never want to tow it.

I don't understand why she didn't just go on freecycle and ask for a caravan in one of the outlaying areas.  I've seen plenty go that way and over the last 6 months she'd probably have got at least one!  The problem isn't the vehicle as such, it's finding somewhere to put it that is always the issue.

[Scooby]

You do not have to be a Trustee in order to inform someone who is constantly abusing the storage system to stop dumping their unwanted materials all over the yard and to keep their working area clean and tidy at all times, Margarita was constantly warned about this on several occasions and when confronted again on the day of her 6 month ban she became very rude, abusive, and very aggressive, and was met by the same reply, i decided in the interest and safety for both of us to remove myself and my van from the premises, however Margarita chose to continue and continued to pursue me throughout, you will not be permitted to touch or to continue building her trailer, as it has been been given a period of two weeks for Margarita to collect, at which point i will be instructed to have it removed and cleared from the yard to make room and space for other awaiting projects.

Thank you Scooby.

[Martin (Crypt)]

Given the circumstances I'm actually in broad agreement with Scooby on this one.  Every member should be respected equally, getting the trustees involved should be a last resort in case personal mediation fails.  Now I'm not saying getting into a shouting match is great, but if he's seen what he thinks to be a member that is currently awaiting a ban, and leaving a large amount of mess in the yard, especially given his excellent efforts to clean it up recently, I'd probably be a bit annoyed and try to ask her to clean up a bit too.

As for Margarita, I have huge sympathy for her, if she is homeless, and if she reaches out to us for help, then we can maybe try to help her find resolutions, such as shelters or help through other services.  However, she hasn't, and we've been very accommodating to her.  However, if she's been warned multiple times and still failed to either seek help, or agree to follow the rules, then theres not much more we can do

--

[Aden]

The trailer has been there for 6 months, if it was an urgent situation it could have been completed in a few weeks.

--

[Tim Reynolds]

Scooby was looking for a row.

>Hello all, today when arrived at the space i was informed by another
>member that Margarita had received a six month ban for being caught

>sleeping/living at the space, after checking and reading the update on

>the mailing list, i decided to go in person to inform Margarita of
>this as i thought that she was unaware of this at the time as she
>appeared to be happy and smiling whilst on and using the communal PC,

All members are informed of warnings or bans before the mailing list.
Her crime was to look too happy in the space after being banned, so
Scooby took it upon himself to make sure she knew exactly how banned she
was and that if she didn't move her stuff he'd trash it.

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.

[tim_n]

None of this is particularly productive, nor adding to or helping the situation.

The hackspace code of conduct (https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Code_of_Conduct)

2. Keep all communication civil and keep swearing to a minimum; if you can't make a comment politely and persuasively, don't make it at all. Your conduct reflects on the image of the Hackspace as seen by outsiders.

Scooby is quite rightly upset, he's done a lot of very good in the yard and in his position I suspect I would have been just as upset.

Can we knock this on the head now?  It's not very interesting.

[Mark Steward]

I've seen Scooby escalation situations unnecessarily on repeated occasions and had to intervene once. I appreciate that he's doing good stuff in the yard, but that doesn't justify lashing out at others when they cause offence. After the trustees issued the ban, she did not need to be "confronted" by an additional person.

Scooby, please let other, less invested people deal with sorting out her project and access to the space.

Cheers,

Mark

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "London Hackspace" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.

[geekinesis]

"you will not be permitted to touch or to continue building her trailer, as it has been been given a period of two weeks for Margarita to collect, at which point i will be instructed to have it removed and cleared from the yard to make room and space for other awaiting projects."

Is that correct? If people are willing to help out building, with her permission I don't see why that's not permitted.

[Tim Reynolds]

Scooby contrived a situation where he could be agressive to another
member that had annoyed him (see his posts in the yard clearance thread
and Margaritas storage request thread) and then gave an incredibly
biased report of it to the mailing list. Since being called out on it he
has escalated it further. His great threads about his van conversion and
clearing out the yard gave me hope that he had stopped this kind of
thing but here we are.

It is unpleasent but if you do not like it then do not continue to read
the thread. Please don't try to shut down discussion of it by pasting in
unrelated parts of the CoC.

[tim_n]

Or, if you're worked up about it, make a formal complaint about it to the trustees rather than trolling for another reaction from Scooby.

[Tim Reynolds]

Do you know that I haven't? I was not trolling for another reaction from
Scooby, I was providing a counterpoint to Crypts post about
understanding where he was coming from.

[Billy]

To quote back at you,

On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 3:50:33 PM UTC, Tim Reynolds wrote:

Scooby was looking for a row.

Please, enough of this monkey-troupe pecking-order bullshit.

> <mailto:london-hack-space+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Scooby]

What you'll find here is the same group of tiny members who have been battling with me for far to many years now, these are the very same people that troll and misbehave regally, and have even tried to lie about me here too in order to have others believe that i am some kind of monster, they use both the mailing list and IRC to continually play with people and their minds, and they know full well that i am not afraid of them or anyone else in that case, and because of this they see me as a big threat, and persons such as a recent past banned Trustee too, they are mostly invisible in the flesh and spend most of their time hiding behind a PC and are very antisocial, so i let it be known that i have a very long future hear at the London Hackspace and i will not be going anywhere far anytime soon, i am working hard and even harder now towards the future in keeping it alive and i will be here forever and for the rest of my life now thanks to you know who you are, if i see it and i don't like it then you'll know about it, its as simple as that lets give it a rest right now because it's not working anymore, it's time to grow up now and accept the fact that i'm not just going to just give up and hand in my Oyster card that easily, but to now fight and run for Trustee this year and to get to bottom of this, yes i know my opening statement regarding that incident with Margarita was a bit tasteless, but you have to accept that she was very abusive to me that day check the yard CCTV, and she was taking the you know what out of everyone too, and for way to long, she honestly did get up my rear end that day also and knowing that i was aways constantly clearing up after her mess and it was very tiring, i supported her for quite some time at the begging, gave her tips and advise on building her trailer and even backed her complaint when she received her first warning in January when she was appealing for evidence or proof as she denied that she was ever sleeping, she also refuse all housing help when offered and so mush advised towards that was handed over to her on a plate which she turned down, i do wish her the very best for the future now and i am quite confident that she will succeed and move on to another Hackspace as she is not as innocent as she is led to be believed.

Thank you all (future trustee) Scooby.  

[Tim Reynolds]

I can't think of any other reason to do it? Margarita was too happy in
the space, and he set out to remedy that. There is no pecking order or
monkey troupe, he behaved in an agressive manner and is being called out
on it.

>>> <mailto:london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com>.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [1].

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [1].
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://groups.google.com/d/optout

[Tim Reynolds]

This level of paranoia is incredible. No one is out to get you. No one
is running psyops on the irc channel or this mailing list. It was just a
pretty disingenuous version of events that has since been corrected.
Everyone gets wound up, just don't present yourself as the hero of the
situation when you were anything but.

-An antisocial person currently in the hackspace for social night.

>> (https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Code_of_Conduct [1])

>>
>> 2. Keep all communication civil and keep swearing to a minimum; if
>> you can't make a comment politely and persuasively, don't make it at
>> all. Your conduct reflects on the image of the Hackspace as seen by
>> outsiders.
>>
>> Scooby is quite rightly upset, he's done a lot of very good in the
>> yard and in his position I suspect I would have been just as upset.
>>
>> Can we knock this on the head now? It's not very interesting.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to london-hack-sp...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [2].
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Code_of_Conduct
> [2] https://groups.google.com/d/optout

[Graham Perdeaux]

The trailer was part of a final year Uni project - do we have any reason to think otherwise? Other than the fact that Margarita seems to be living at the space.

If so, then perhaps some checking needs to be done before allowing projects of this kind in the yard

[Scooby]

Margarita Fomina HS05620 is still currently a member of the London Hackspace, and therefore her door card reader is still active, and she will still have 24 hour access, please could we urgently have this addressed and could we urgently have the rear gate padlock code changed too.

Thank you Scooby.

[Paddy Duncan]

Yes of course she is (https://london.hackspace.org.uk/organisation/docs/articles.pdf section 7(d))

No it isn't.

No she doesn't.

No.

--

[Stefan Sabo]

Guys, please be honest...

In this case is not clearly hunter and victim.. And, there is not space to "feel sorry to her" or make angel and innocent from her...

Everybody knows, as she sleeping and technically living at space for MONTHs, not days, weeks, but months... However, I will always advocate for intensive use of HackSpace (because I mean, as it is still legitimate under membership), this was simply exploit of everything, what can...

It is not space for be surprised, as she sleeping days/nights at space. Simply because it was normal for her.

Lots of times, people try mark her as Homeless, but she, proudly, always REFUSE this stamp. At person, but also here at Mailing list, she clearly stated, as she is not at this position.

Of course, we can discuss about it, and it is can be true. 

But extreme was, as she do not leave space (apart goes to Tesco) for 5 days (!). Even, obvious it was terrible like this, but some indications to mean this was on the table all time.

I was witness as some people offer her help with this. 

She REFUSE it.

I really understand, as situation like this is not easy for everyone, and for girl/women dtto. But you can not help someone, who do not want your help, or who are unable clearly admit her own position or problem.

It is really not easy manage it at all. And it is close to start using space as 5 quids hostel.

Last week, lot of people (after her first warning) ask her to stop this behaviour. She ALWAYS starting to be very rude for any mention about her sleeping or living at Space. But, it is easy to understand. She feels as comfort (however it can looks crazy) which she have, can be terminated. 

After second warning, she started to accuse anybody, who looks like as he may asleep at space. Include minimum one trustee, who NOT SLEEP, but only close eyes, when listening other person. She come and SHOUT to him: "do not sleep at Hackspace"!

I personally had small conflict with her,  witnessed at least one trustee, who ask her to leave me and go away from me!

And I can continue, with situation, when she working something on Tesla, another member very polite ask her, how long it will take, because wants to use machine as well. She, without any reason, start shouting to him. He leave her alone, but she still shouting loudly and continue for least 5 minutes, even this person was away.

And, now take Scooby into.. Person, who had some problem with his behaviour to other members in the past and take 1st and 2nd warning about it. it is pretty close to big conflict and potentially "war" between him and his object... Plus, count on top, as she already knows, as was banned. Simply leads to problem.

We can discuss about "UNI project" vs. "rescue / home".

May be, at it is also her UNI project, who knows. But if you build something like this only because your study, you probably will not have also choseen areas, where you will parking it later, and planning to live in it.

London is expensive and this should be alternative. It is clever, and easy for understand.

But, her trailer(s) was at yard least to half year, untouched. Nobody is perfect and she probably had issues, which she stated.

Last days, she working on it intensively. 

May be, because deadline at school, but may be, because she feel as her living at HS is at danger. Who knows.

Any allowance of your project is not also allowance make big mess around. And any member could ask you, to be more polite and clean it upon self. 

At night from 12/13th MAR Scobby find her around 3AM inside her trailer. 

Around 1/2 hour before she pretend to go from space and say to all "bye, I going to home"...

However I could believe as she come there only organise some things, pardon, it is no way make noise at deep night at backyard. 

I do not understand logic, which leas to make something on project like this OUTSIDE at 3 AM. 

If I know, Scooby make record on his phone of this situation. I believe, he will able to provide it to trustees, if need.

At least, I think, we should only take care, what will happened with her stuff. Hope, she will find place to keep it. But it will be not easy, because Wembley CSL Hackspace have not any capability to manage it, also South London Markerspace, because both do not have yard.