Lockdown closure?

[Eitan Carmona]

Anyone know if hackspace Wembley will close or remain open during the newly announced lockdown beginning Thursday? 

I hope it stays open! Any updates from those in the know? 

Many thanjs in advance! 

[Daniel Edgecumbe]

I'd say that it's far too soon to guess given that the rules are still up in the air.

We have no idea as of yet what the finalised guidance will be, never mind law.

Daniel Edgecumbe | esotericnonsense
+44 7508 603979
d...@esotericnonsense.com | https://esotericnonsense.com

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[Eitan Carmona]

Understood. I gather we are classed as a club so I'm guessing hackspace is toast?

Hoping not! What does your instinct tell you?

[Adrian Godwin]

I guess it's OK to use for work but not for fun.

I have no idea what the difference is.

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[Eitan Carmona]

It's where I go to work, and it's fun too! I guess it's non essential on most cases (not mine) but more hubby type place? Either way I hear its classified as a "club" therefore I guess it will close unless the powers that be can argue that it is a Co working spade which should remain open to allow people to work.

[Adrian Godwin]

A club is a place that serves drinks and is primarily social, like a working man's club. It's absolutely nothing like a hackspace.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/london-hack-space/493dc95e-7c09-41df-8ff7-4fa0e7721e49%40gmail.com.

[Eitan Carmona]

Yes I get that but it refers to its classification.

[Nigel Worsley]

Arguing over whether we are a club or not is pointless, the government
is closing EVERYTHING except for certain exemptions:
"This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for
specific purposes."
We aren't going to be on the list of essential services and will
therefore have to close on Thursday.

Nigle

[Matt Rutter]

Nigel... One of those specific exemptions is work, if it can't be done remotely. Therefore anyone using the hackspace to do things that earn them a living should be allowed to continue to do so.

Matt

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[Eitan Carmona]

Who's arguing? As someone has just stayed hackspace is a place of work where we go to work and earn a living from it. The discussion was whether it would be closed or not in the basis that its classified as a club and not a workplace.

Be great to get clarification on this. If it has to close not has to close, not the end of the world.

[Matthew]

> We aren't going to be on the list of essential services and will therefore have to close on Thursday.

+1, in my opinion the Hackspace should close. Members should continue to support the Hackspace by paying their membership (where they can, of course) until restrictions are lifted. Even if there is some vague loophole we could fall under, there's a global pandemic, and we should be doing everything we can to avoid contributing to it.

>  Hackspace is a place of work where we go to work and earn a living from it.

Again in my opinion, no one should be depending on the Hackspace to "Earn a living" except for Proof of Concepts, Prototypes etc. Any one that is using the Hackspace to earn a living should be making a sizeable donation to keep the Hackspace going rather than leaching from it. As far as I'm aware we don't have any such benefactors, so I can only assume no one is making a living using the facilities...

[Matt Rutter]

Matthew.

1. I was in the Hackspace on Friday and Saturday, doing some welding that was DIRECTLY CONNECTED to my earning a living. In fact, I'm currently earning a living because of the Hackspace... I answered a call for help on this very list, and it has been keeping me busy for 5 weeks now.

2. While in the Hackspace yesterday, I repaired the MIG welder, spent an hour of my time making a decent gas bottle retaining strap for it, to replace the cable ties and string arrangement that was previously employed. Oh, and I used my own time to go up to BOC to get a refilled gas bottle... bill for the refill to follow.

3. In the past I have given up my time to.

a. build the electronics room in its new location and move much of its contents down from upstairs.

b. build the shelving for members' storage boxes on the ground floor.

c. rewire and commission the bandsaw.

d. build and install limit switches for the laser cutter, and spend time re-levelling the bad after someone had obviously crashed it...

e. donated tools for the use of all....  The current blade in the hacksaw, the disc on the angle grinder, the 20mm drill in the drill draw... the little 2.5d cnc mill/laser cutter, the relay board in the table saw AC node.... Sorry, all mine.

f. hang the projector from the ceiling.

g. fit and wire in the dado sockets in the sewing area.

h. etc

I'm sorry if my efforts to keep the Hackspace running and running well don't show up on your precious bottom line.....

I feel no guilt in using the 'space to earn a living occasionally.

Fortunately, I'm also a member at BuildingBlocs....

Matt

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[Matthew]

Thanks for your contributions. That's how the Hackspace is meant to operate, all members should be giving up their time to support the community otherwise it simply wouldn't exist.

Like I said no one should be depending on the Hackspace to earn a living. It sounds like you're doing a one off rather than running a business from the premises so that could be argued as acceptable. I don't think it gives grounds for the Hackspace to remain open however. Hopefully you can finish your project at BuildingBlocs if they aren't subject to the restrictions.

[Adrian Godwin]

I agree that nobody should be depending on the hackspace for full-time work. Its priority is to serve all its members, not a few specific ones.

However there's a very large margin between 'useful for some activity' and 'dependent'.

The government has been seen to be completely incompetent at managing the country, let alone a tiny workshop that they don't understand. The aim of their policies is purely to reduce contact between people whilst allowing, as far as possible, to allow the economy to function. If you want to help, use this as a rule - the 'spirit' rather than the letter of the law. You will likely do a better job than slavishly following published rules that have been made for different situations.

I have been several times to the hackspace over the last few months, always in connection with work : it's been a convenient place to meet a couple of clients for testing sessions. I have by no means been dependent on it, but I have also no fear that my use has encouraged mixing. I have typically only seen one or two other people there : far less than in a typical workplace, and in less close contact than if I went to their homes (which the rules also allow me to do). The rule to avoid more than six people meeting, or two households mixing has a specific exemption for meeting due to work (even in the home - it doesn't require a covid-safe workplace like the hackspace).

I will respect without protest whatever rules are made about the hackspace being open or closed, but I see no advantage in closing it and no legal requirement to do so, as long as it is not used by large numbers of people simultaneously.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/london-hack-space/9b10b589-6b96-44f6-9b31-3860efa7c382n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eitan Carmona]

When I said hackspace is a place where people go to work and earn a living it was meant in the spirit of keeping it open, as in, it could be "viewed" or "perceived" as being a co-working space where people go and do "work", therefore there's an argument for keeping it open..

If it's viewed as a place where people go to tinker then it's definitely a certainty to be closed. I don't think anyone would be successful in using hackspace to earn a living, it's just not feasible nor realistic, but the whole reason why we go there is because it's a great resource which assists us to be able to achieve something not so easily achieved in the home, that doesn't make you "dependent".

Anyway, it's most likely going to close and we are OK with that. We will continue to support hackspace through any closure as I hope others will also.

Long live hackspace!

[deanforbes]

At the end of the day what happens during the next phase of the current crisis is not know as it has not been declared as such to speculate is in my view a waste of time 

The decision I believe will be made at the end of the day by the directors based on their understanding of the government directives issued  which has not happened yet, I dont expect it will be based hearsay, astrology charts, mass media noise or  armchair professors

when the directive is announced in full I am sure the directors will consult with the appropriate entities and make a responsible announcement 

the hackspace is not a place of business and in the past there have been issues with people using it as such,  this is different from people using it occasionally for a business related task. 

Noise at this point serves no purpose

[wisam...@gmail.com]

I personally use the space to work on building up for my own business, so having it open is quite important for me and my livelihood (and wellbeing). It won't kill me if it was closed, but it will be quite inconvenient and disruptive. 

I usually come one day a week, and I hardly see anyone for most of the days.  In the wood workshop, there would be 4 people at it's busiest time, but often the whole hackspace would hardly have 3 people at the same time. Everything is setup in the space so we can work there while ensuring everyone's safe and protected. It's definitely safer than the shops I pick my shopping from. 

I do understand that for most users the Hackspace is a fun space, but for few it's an important work space, and I hope that considerations should priorities those who actually need the space to those who don't. I'm hoping something can be arranged to that end. It doesn't have to be a decision to close it down for everyone, or to open it for everyone. Those who need is can express their need, and depending on their number (which is quite small I believe) an arrangement of some sort can be made (a booking system maybe?)

Given the nature of Hackspace and its governance structure, I would expect and appreciate that there's some sort of consultation with members before decisions on closure of the space are made (especially where it is not a clear cut requirement of the law)

Cheers

[Amitava Roy]

Considering HackSpace as a place of work for most people (not daily work), and with all the measures in place, it could be kept open. That is my opinion.

Thanks

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[c.ra...@gmail.com]

I think if you need to use the equipment, then you should be allowed in the Hackspace.

In terms of what is work: someone might work the land to grow things to eat for themselves, this is work even if you are not working for monetary compensation or even as a sustainable way of making a living. In the same way, if you need to go in to Hackspace to fix or build things and use the equipment, it results in some productive input to yourself or others then it is work, in my opinion. Many people enjoy their job too and the fact that you might enjoy coming to the Hackspace shouldn't in itself disallow you from coming.

[c.ra...@gmail.com]

It also might be worth thinking about how the Hackspace can improve airflow - a regular changeover of air within the rooms would prevent build up of aerosols and significantly reduce transmission if someone did enter with the virus

[Daniel Karpinski]

The hackspace closed previously in lockdown, is there a reason why we'd expect it to be any different this time around?

Daniel

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[deanforbes]

the hackspace is a social club not a co-working space or commercial workshop there are many of those around and if its what you need (Google is your friend..... Building Blox etc etc etc ) 

That does not mean you cant build a proto-type or have the occasional meeting here however if you make your regular living based out of the hackspace it is not fair on other members who are subsidising you and at some point you will miss a deadline due to kit being down or lose a client due to meeting being interrupted by an angle grinder or something along those lines ...... people normally work this out with out needing to be told 

The documentation is a bit light but have a look at 

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Receiving_Mail

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Induction

For the lockdown I am sure when the official guidance is published it will be followed 

We are registered at companies house as a membership organisations not elsewhere classified ......  94990

• On Saturday, 31 October 2020 21:34:21 UTC, Eitan Carmona wrote:
  

[Joe England]

If I recall correctly, from my reading of the legislation last time, we could actually have remained open. The only problem was the edict about non-essential travel and that would not have applied to people using the space for work.

[David Murphy]

I'd argue that there's a reasonably long history of people getting small businesses started, working at least for a while out of the space. It's probably one of the larger positive impacts of the space on society and isn't any big problem assuming the people in question also contribute back reasonably either in terms of money or time and don't hog resources. 

But I also agree that we probably have to go with how the space is registered.

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[Lisbon Lisbon]

Hi guys, Is hackspace open tomorrow, Thursday? Thanks

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[Paddy Duncan]

Yes. I’m literally just finishing off a new members’ advisory email. Pls to be reading shortly.. 😊

Paddy

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[Russ Garrett]

The law now says that you cannot leave home "without reasonable
excuse". The law provides a selection of reasonable excuses, which are
not exhaustive:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/regulation/6/made

The government also provides guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

As far as I can tell, the only defined excuse for most members to
visit London Hackspace is for work purposes.

This virus is not a joke. The only way we can reduce the transmission
of this virus, and save lives, is by avoiding contact with other
people. Visiting the hackspace unnecessarily will bring you into
contact with people. Don't do it unless you need to. Please.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk