[london-hack-space] Beer tin - let's panic.

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Glen

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Jun 8, 2011, 5:49:00 PM6/8/11
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On the 30th of May we had £94 of beer from the wholesalers delivered
to the Hackspace, £20 of that was my money.
On the 6th of June I checked the beer tin to see if it was time to buy
more beer, we had £48 in the tin and two crates of ale.
On the 8th of June we had no beer and the money on the tin had gone
down.
The tin should have twice as much money as it has. The only things I
can think happened are that people have been buying really expensive
beer from the corner-shop or that someone's taking the money. Anyone
know more about this?

Glen

Charles Yarnold

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Jun 8, 2011, 5:51:49 PM6/8/11
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There was talk between me, mat p and another (i can't remember who) about where beer is normally bought from.

I would not suggest too much panic as more than one member can/does drinks runs.

Sol

Sent from my Android, please excuse typos and spelling errors.

On Jun 8, 2011 10:49 PM, "Glen" <glen....@gmail.com> wrote:

On the 30th of May we had £94 of beer from the wholesalers delivered to the Hackspace, £20 of that w...

Nigel Worsley

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Jun 8, 2011, 6:03:26 PM6/8/11
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Time to get one of these, perhaps?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/140550326216

Nigle

Jim MacArthur

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Jun 8, 2011, 6:23:13 PM6/8/11
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I'm not sure why the space needs to maintain its own stock of beer. On the few occasions I've been to a Tuesday meeting, I've found it quite convenient to bring enough beer for myself and a few spare bottles for any visitors.

Jaimal Chohan

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Jun 8, 2011, 6:24:29 PM6/8/11
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But then the beer will go flat

Mark Steward

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Jun 8, 2011, 6:58:47 PM6/8/11
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On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Glen <glen....@gmail.com> wrote:
On the 30th of May we had £94 of beer from the wholesalers delivered
to the Hackspace, £20 of that was my money.

On the 6th of June I checked the beer tin to see if it was time to buy
more beer, we had £48 in the tin and two crates of ale.

On the 8th of June we had no beer and the money on the tin had gone
down.

The tin should have twice as much money as it has. The only things I
can think happened are that people have been buying really expensive
beer from the corner-shop or that someone's taking the money. Anyone
know more about this?

 
There were at least £40 worth of notes (and around £20 in coins) when I checked at 8pm on 7th.  The last bottle of ale had just been consumed by that point, so there should have been at least an £30 more in donations.

It seems there's something wrong with the honesty box system.  Can I suggest people instead use whip-rounds, gathering money before visiting the supermarket?  If it means bringing a car round on a Tuesday, I'm happy to oblige, but it's getting a bit depressing, and beer shouldn't be have that effect.


Mark

Martin Dittus

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:16:44 PM6/8/11
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May I point out that there was a Tuesday social night between your and Glen's counting.

m.

Sci

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:36:04 PM6/8/11
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I have one of those cheap little cashboxes going spare. I'll cut a
deposit slot in the top and some holes in the bottom to screw it down to
the worktop. I know the keys aren't exactly uncommon and likely shared
by all of the same make, but having the right key on hand would lower
odds of opportunity thefts.
Can give the keys to a board member. More security in getting them to
open the box than handing the key to whoever does a beer run.

I've also got the carcass of one of those cheap digital wall-safes. Can
probably tack-weld and repair the hinges and it would need a new lock,
but may make a decent donation box?

~ Sci

On 08/06/2011 22:46, Glen wrote:
> On the 30th of May we had �94 of beer from the wholesalers delivered
> to the Hackspace, �20 of that was my money.
>
> On the 6th of June I checked the beer tin to see if it was time to buy
> more beer, we had �48 in the tin and two crates of ale.
>
> On the 8th of June we had no beer and the money on the tin had gone
> down.
>
> The tin should have twice as much money as it has. The only things I
> can think happened are that people have been buying really expensive
> beer from the corner-shop or that someone's taking the money. Anyone
> know more about this?
>

> Glen
>

Will Pearson

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:44:04 PM6/8/11
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I know some people, whose names I don't recall, went out to buy more
beer from shops (unspecified) on Tuesday evening, because there was
none left to be seen (this was pretty early on as well).

Personally I'm kinda surprised that two crates went on a Monday
evening/Tuesday day time.

Will

Martin Dittus

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Jun 8, 2011, 7:59:19 PM6/8/11
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QED. There is a beer donation can with cash in it, it's a social night, there's no beer. I would expect form any random hacker that they volunteer to go out and buy more.

If there are ideas about where to find good beer for less money then I suggest to put them prominently on the donation can.

Mystery solved, no need to panic.

m.

Charles Yarnold

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Jun 8, 2011, 8:28:04 PM6/8/11
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I would hold off doing something like this, we don't know that anything has been stolen, and adding in measures that hamper people having access to the cash to refill the beer without a clear need to do so is a large over reaction imho.

Alex Pounds

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:26:45 PM6/8/11
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On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 12:36:04AM +0100, Sci wrote:
> I have one of those cheap little cashboxes going spare.
> I know the keys aren't exactly uncommon...

... And there are several sets of lockpicks in the hackspace... :)


--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jun 8, 2011, 9:43:31 PM6/8/11
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You need to remember that the membership includes a fair number of
accomplished lock-pickers....

Not to mention the availability of "brute force tools in 23 :-D

Sci

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Jun 8, 2011, 10:42:11 PM6/8/11
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Both of which draw far more attention than putting a key in.

Glen

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:18:38 AM6/9/11
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On Jun 9, 1:28 am, Charles Yarnold <charlesyarn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would hold off doing something like this, we don't know that anything has
> been stolen, and adding in measures that hamper people having access to the
> cash to refill the beer without a clear need to do so is a large over
> reaction imho.

All the cash boxes have come up short, unless someone took ~£50 out of
the tin and hasn't returned with the beer yet it looks like we have a
theft problem. The consequences of the beer tin failing are that
people are going to want to have beers in the space marked as theirs
and we don't have storage space for this.

We have an account with Majestic wholesalers; phone 020 7247 9381, the
account name is 'Hack Space', ask for 'the usual'. Jim MacArthur, if
you buy your beer here then you'll have enough to share around. The
order costs £94.

Glen

Martin Dittus

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:43:26 AM6/9/11
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Glen, Will pointed out that a few people went to buy beer on Tuesday night. The system in all likelihood works fine. Don't panic etc. :)

M

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:48:17 AM6/9/11
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i recall a couple of months or more, went out to do a beer run with some other guys, we came back with hardly anything in comparison to what I had seen in the fridge before - I think it's easy to make the mistake of buying the wrong stuff from the wrong place, also as stated above some people enjoy those other weird bottle drinks - dunno what they are nor do I really drink them but we had some of those.

So I can see how people wanting to do right by stocking the fridge, can get it a little bit wrong.

Mike

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:48:35 AM6/9/11
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On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 01:18:38AM -0700, Glen wrote:
>
> All the cash boxes have come up short, unless someone took ~?50 out of

> the tin and hasn't returned with the beer yet it looks like we have a
> theft problem. The consequences of the beer tin failing are that
> people are going to want to have beers in the space marked as theirs
> and we don't have storage space for this.
>
> We have an account with Majestic wholesalers; phone 020 7247 9381, the
> account name is 'Hack Space', ask for 'the usual'. Jim MacArthur, if
> you buy your beer here then you'll have enough to share around. The
> order costs ?94.
>

Sounds like it would be a good idea to have a log book so that we can
record how much money is going out for beer. At the moment we seem to
have little idea if people are using the money to buy very expensive
beer or if people are using it to fund their crack habit.

The next question is: are we sure that when people help themselves to
beer they are reimbursing the collection tin? This is a slightly more
difficult question to answer.

Mike.

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Ken Boak

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:50:25 AM6/9/11
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Glen,
 
I was in the space from 09:15 Saturday 4th to 19:30 Sunday 5th.
 
We had about 30 people in for the two Nanode workshops.
 
On the Saturday morning I estimated about 12 bottles of beer in the bottom of the fridge.
 
These were generally consumed over the weekend.
 
Personally I have been putting £1.50 into the beer tin for every bottle I drank, and those 3 or 4 bottles I bought for others on the Sunday lunchtime .  If this is not enough then I will happily pay what I should have been paying.
 
Perhaps we need a better tarrif board clearly stating what should be paid for the beers on offer.
 
Fine Ales  £2 bottle
Import Lagers  £1.50
Carling   -  buy your own if you must drink this
 
 
If you want a minimum of £2 for a 500ml bottle - then I probably owe the tin  £6 - £10
 
 
Ken

Mike

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:52:03 AM6/9/11
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On Thu, Jun 09, 2011 at 09:48:17AM +0100, M wrote:
>
> So I can see how people wanting to do right by stocking the fridge, can get
> it a little bit wrong.
>

Although so far I haven't had cause to restock the fridge, I was
previously unaware of the wholesale account. Perhaps a note at the back
of the fridge "if this fridge is empty, ring this number".

Mike.

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M

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:52:04 AM6/9/11
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Given the workshop, support, hard work and general awesomeness of yourself - you probably shouldn't have paid for any beers at all :P

Ken Boak

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:11:20 AM6/9/11
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M,
 
But I do like a beer or three, and like any other member, casual or not, I should make the correct contribution to the beer fund.
 
 
Ken

Glen

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:12:45 AM6/9/11
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On Jun 9, 9:50 am, Ken Boak <ken.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally I have been putting £1.50 into the beer tin for every bottle I
> drank

> Perhaps we need a better tarrif board clearly stating what should be paid
> for the beers on offer.
>
> Fine Ales  £2 bottle
>
> If you want a minimum of £2 for a 500ml bottle - then I probably owe the
> tin  £6 - £10
>
> Ken

Fine ale costs £1.12 a bottle.

Chris Roberts

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:16:16 AM6/9/11
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Hey,

On Tuesday I came down with a friend and we bought some beer. We got
a crate of 24 Carlsburg for £20. Half of it was a donation (as I only
come down once a month or so on a social, I usually donate beer), and
we took £10 from the beer pot. All of the beer was consumed that
night. Unless I drank more than 6 beers, I didn't drink more than I
paid for :p.

Something on the fridge saying where to restock it from would be an
excellent idea. As a casual visitor, I had no idea this was the case.

Also, having a sign for the expected donation for each beverage would
be a good idea too.

Chris Roberts
~
http://naxxfish.eu/

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:16:48 AM6/9/11
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Maybe have an LCD board (or retro "chalk board") where current per-beer 'suggested donations' can be set (just the like the IRC>display board?) by people returning from a beer run
And also a policy that when buying beer with money from the tin, you then place the receipt in the tin (or besides it, e.g. on a skewer)

George Buckenham

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:34:24 AM6/9/11
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Unfortunately, I believe it is illegal for us to have a recommended
donation per beer. Something about it looking like we're selling it,
which you need a license to do.

-g

Ken Boak

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:38:23 AM6/9/11
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Glen,
 
£1.12/bottle cost price.  That was the price I believe we discussed a couple of Tuesdays ago when you went on the beer run, so my donation of £1.50 per bottle is entirely reasonable.
 
 
Ken

Mark Steward

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:40:30 AM6/9/11
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Just a summary of what happened:

- On 30th May, £94 pounds worth of beer was bought.
- Over the weekend, 12 bottles went, mostly reimbursed at £1.50/bottle.
- On Monday, there was £48 in the donations tin, and two crates of ale remained.
- By 8pm Tuesday, we had £60 in donations and no ale, giving a rate of 50p/bottle.
- On Wednesday, there was "less than £48" and no ale.  Assuming 24 more bottles were consumed from 8pm (which is what I normally get when I do a Tuesday run), this is a rate of at most -50p/bottle.

I'm not panicking, I just don't think the honesty system works, especially on Tuesdays.  As always, suggestions include regulating it and enforcing payment, which simply increases the impression that the Hackspace sells alcohol.

Before we got a permanent drinks fridge, individuals would group together to get beer.  After a drinks run, the donations tin was almost always in profit.  I think it would be beneficial all round.


Mark

Elliot West

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:59:50 AM6/9/11
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On 9 June 2011 10:40, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
Before we got a permanent drinks fridge, individuals would group together to get beer.  After a drinks run, the donations tin was almost always in profit.  I think it would be beneficial all round.

We used to have quite a surplus at the Archery IIRC :) 

Martin Dittus

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:06:52 AM6/9/11
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On 9 Jun 2011, at 10:40, Mark Steward wrote:
>
> I'm not panicking, I just don't think the honesty system works, especially on Tuesdays. As always, suggestions include regulating it and enforcing payment, which simply increases the impression that the Hackspace sells alcohol.


An alternative suggestion was made on IRC (by Adrian I think?) -- reduce the supply of "free" beer and let the "market" resolve it.

Or in other words,
- either run it on a communal basis, benefit from bulk purchases, and make sure that distribution is fair and not a free-for-all (avoiding a "tragedy of the commons") by yet to be determined mechanisms (magic?)
- or let the community sort it out themselves, increasing the de-facto price but reducing financial risk to individuals/the organisation

Atm we appear to be running something in between.

If you haven't heard of the concept (I'm sure Mark has):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:22:05 AM6/9/11
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Dirk-Willem van Gulik

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:39:33 AM6/9/11
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On 9 Jun 2011, at 10:34, George Buckenham wrote:
> Unfortunately, I believe it is illegal for us to have a recommended
> donation per beer. Something about it looking like we're selling it,

Hmm - somehow this needs to be hacked :) - so perhaps an electric log on the fridge - which auto unlocks in real time when a random amounth is paypalled :)

Dw.

Martin Dittus

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Jun 9, 2011, 6:43:02 AM6/9/11
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A good read. They suggest that complex networks of smaller groups find it easier to cooperate. "The authors consider another model where a complex network of small groups is considered, and find that large-scale cooperation builds even more easily" etc.

The "let's split the space" suggestion came up a few times in jest, but we could actually build subgroups in quite sensible ways. We already have some of that: biohackers, metal working group, etc.

Maybe it's time to allow some formalisation of that to happen.

E.g.,
- people gather in loose interest groups anyway
- at a certain point these groups may want to formalise their relationship, e.g. they might want to purchase equipment.
- the space could offer such groups access to certain amenities (a shared box, space for their equipment)
- they would however also need to take on particular responsibilities (helping the space run smoothly within and outside their direct realm)

Martin Dittus

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Jun 9, 2011, 7:27:23 AM6/9/11
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(Spawning this off from the beer donation thread since it warrants its own discussion.)

The response below was in reply to an observation that we're now running into a few "Tragedy of the Commons" situations in how our resources are managed.

Generally we appear to have two basic options. In the context of beer purchases:
- to either run aspects of the space on a communal basis, benefit from e.g. bulk purchases, and make sure that distribution is fair and not a free-for-all (avoiding a "tragedy of the commons") by yet to be determined mechanisms (magic?)
- or to let the community sort it out themselves, increasing the de-facto price but reducing financial risk to individuals/the organisation

Atm we appear to be running something in between.

There are more elaborate options as well. My suggestion would be to build more formal subgroups who feel responsible for particular aspects of the space; see below for details.

Looking forward to hear your suggestions. And for suggestions about potential subgroups we could formalise.

m.

Phish

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Jun 9, 2011, 8:06:16 AM6/9/11
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This is a good idea. The putting the receipts on a skewer bit.

I'm not overly sure we need to be overly concerned about the suggested
donation part, as until this point as far as I can see we have always
been able to maintain a healthy stock of booze.

Either way, some informal accounting system seems to be the way to go
to me.

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 9, 2011, 8:21:45 AM6/9/11
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On 6/9/11, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com> wrote:
> E.g.,
> - people gather in loose interest groups anyway
> - at a certain point these groups may want to formalise their relationship,
> e.g. they might want to purchase equipment.
> - the space could offer such groups access to certain amenities (a shared
> box, space for their equipment)
> - they would however also need to take on particular responsibilities
> (helping the space run smoothly within and outside their direct realm)
>

So .. a 'beer club'.

Members contribute toward a group purchase.
Supplies are kept in a beer fridge.
If ownership is not respected, the fridge gets a lock
If the fridge takes up common space, the members using this private
facility make a suitable contribution to hackspace funds (since there
is already a beer fridge and it wouldn't be used except for parties,
there could be an initial grace period where no rental was required).

-adrian

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 9, 2011, 8:23:48 AM6/9/11
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FWIW, that's a suggestion to meet the requirements rather than
something I'd personally want to be involved in. I prefer the party
model : bring more than you drink, donate the balance.

-adrian

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 9, 2011, 8:57:55 AM6/9/11
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Two possibilities. The first is (subject to the space's lease terms) we get a club premises licence. From that point on, the hackspace is free to sell/offer beer to members http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/alcohol_and_entertainment/4059.aspx
Up-front costs are upwards of £100 quid, mind you, though there's no renewal fee.

Otherwise, having a workable honesty system might just require a little more clarity as to what the cost price of the beer was. Why not just have a sign above it, saying "Help yourself; FYI: this beer cost the purchaser £... per bottle / pint", where a purchaser ("donor") can fill in / delete as appropriate. In my unqualified opinion, that's neither an offer for sale, nor even an invitation to treat (IANAQL, TINLA, and I don't even know if honesty systems are legal in any format, either)

samthetechie

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Jun 9, 2011, 10:52:36 AM6/9/11
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Now that we have flagged it up, shall we implement some simple
solutions and monitor the situation?
1) I have made a wiki page, please edit it until it is useful/fit for
purpose: http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Beer_Run
2) It links to a google map, please add the best shops, opening times
and prices on to it.
3) Lets put a small notice about prices onto the fridges again and see
if the situation gets better?

On Jun 9, 10:16 am, Philippe Bradley <philbrad...@gmail.com> wrote:

Charles Yarnold

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Jun 9, 2011, 10:57:52 AM6/9/11
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On 9 June 2011 15:52, samthetechie <samuelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
3) Lets put a small notice about prices onto the fridges again and see
if the situation gets better?

We can't do this due to the reasons stated before in this thread. 

Mark Steward

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Jun 9, 2011, 12:39:07 PM6/9/11
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I believe that would be OK, but we'd need to back it up with what people say. A visitor to the space could easily be misled into thinking it's non-optional.

I don't think we'd want to get a club licence - we'd then need to take various precautions, including limiting age.


Mark

Sent from my System/360




From: Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com>
Sent: 09 June 2011 1:57 PM
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: Beer tin - let's panic.

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 9, 2011, 1:32:55 PM6/9/11
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Earlier I think I said there were no ongoing costs. Not so: there's an annual charge. Apologies.

Besides being able to provide alcohol to members, there could be other benefits: 
http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/business/licences/licensingact/clubpremisescertificate/guidance.htm

Sci

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Jun 9, 2011, 2:36:12 PM6/9/11
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Our accounts are already public though, right? So we just need to put
down what the purchase cost has been per beer type. And a separate note
nearby (but totally unrelated of course) reminding people that paying a
little more than cost means more drinks can be bought in next time. :)

~ Sci

cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Jun 9, 2011, 4:40:32 PM6/9/11
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Not to mention the dreaded fire officer....


On Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:39:07 +0100, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Russ Garrett

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:51:45 PM6/9/11
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On 9 June 2011 18:32, Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Earlier I think I said there were no ongoing costs. Not so: there's an
> annual charge. Apologies.
> Besides being able to provide alcohol to members, there could be other
> benefits: http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/business/licences/licensingact/clubpremisescertificate/guidance.htm

As much as I'd love to have a hackspace with a proper bar - and we've
considered this before - getting a premises license is currently not
an option.

Successfully applying for a premises license is much more complex than
just paying a £100 fee (the real costs are almost certainly >£1000 as
you have to go through consultations and submit detailed site
drawings). I'm not sure our landlord would be terribly keen, and the
council probably wouldn't either considering that we're not zoned
correctly for a bar.

Beyond that, we'd need to set up a separate, independent trading
company as we're working towards becoming a charity. We would be
subject to the legal regulations involved in supplying alcohol which
Steve eloquently pointed out in the other thread [1]. This would
likely mean that we would need designated, trained bar staff every
night that the bar would be open.

Self-service would be impossible, so we'd need to securely lock away
the booze away when bar staff weren't available to serve.

A pay bar would be a lot of hassle and a big "impedance mismatch" for
our (still small) space.

[1] http://bit.ly/kmbJE0

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Russ Garrett

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Jun 9, 2011, 5:59:38 PM6/9/11
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On 9 June 2011 19:36, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
> On 09/06/2011 10:34, George Buckenham wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is illegal for us to have a recommended
>> donation per beer. Something about it looking like we're selling it,
>> which you need a license to do.
>
> Our accounts are already public though, right? So we just need to put
> down what the purchase cost has been per beer type. And a separate note
> nearby (but totally unrelated of course) reminding people that paying a
> little more than cost means more drinks can be bought in next time. :)

The beer in the Hackspace is not provided by the Hackspace Foundation,
and so whether our accounts are open or not is irrelevant.

Telling people how much they should be paying for beer is treading
dangerously close to the line of selling it, in my opinion.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Billy

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Jun 10, 2011, 4:00:46 AM6/10/11
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> Telling people how much they should be paying for beer is treading
> dangerously close to the line of selling it, in my opinion.
>

But telling people what it cost us to buy it, as well as where we got
it for the cheap prices, and where to go for the next beer run, should
be ok, yes?

Nick Boyle

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Jun 10, 2011, 4:37:33 AM6/10/11
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If it's not working and is costing the hackspace a single penny, then dump it. It only takes one person to abuse, and the rest pay for it. If I'm in on a tuesday night, I will bring mine and more.

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 5:52:37 AM6/10/11
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Maybe the best option is to run this in the same way that we run pizza on a Tuesday? Everyone who wants beer for the evening chips in or pledges during the day and then a bulk order is bought and the money collected. This would then not be a sale as such just everyone chipping into buying beer. 

Stuff that's left over (unlikely) can then be taken on the previous donation system or people can claim their 4 from the heap (assuming they're £1.12 each). 

S

George Buckenham

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Jun 10, 2011, 6:18:26 AM6/10/11
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>> If it's not working and is costing the hackspace a single penny, then dump
>> it. It only takes one person to abuse, and the rest pay for it. If I'm in on
>> a tuesday night, I will bring mine and more.

It's not costing the Hackspace anything. The beer fund is separate
from Hackspace funds, and no-one is suggesting mingling the two. But
the beer fund has ran low without a corresponding increase in beer.

On 10 June 2011 10:52, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe the best option is to run this in the same way that we run pizza on a
> Tuesday? Everyone who wants beer for the evening chips in or pledges during
> the day and then a bulk order is bought and the money collected. This would
> then not be a sale as such just everyone chipping into buying beer.
> Stuff that's left over (unlikely) can then be taken on the previous donation
> system or people can claim their 4 from the heap (assuming they're £1.12
> each).
> S

This makes sense, but has two drawbacks that I see:

- Beer is consumed at a relatively steady rate over the course of the
evening. Some people have a beer before others turn up - if you arrive
at 10pm you'll miss out entirely. Or you have to take pledges and then
collect money afterwards, which starts to become 1)a faff 2) requires
capital. 'Course, that's not the worst thing, but it means the
majority of beer will be bought from the expensive offie round the
corner.

- It's nice to have beer in the fridge on non-Tuesdays, without having
to bring it each time.

--G

Nick Boyle

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:01:43 AM6/10/11
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I agree it should be a buy in situation .. If I buy four then leave one or two behind, then they are free to a good home. However, would need a "free" fridge separate from the "I'm still quaffing these" fridge ... :)

Sam Cook

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:08:25 AM6/10/11
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Beer is consumed at a relatively steady rate over the course of the
evening. Some people have a beer before others turn up - if you arrive
at 10pm you'll miss out entirely. Or you have to take pledges and then
collect money afterwards, which starts to become 1)a faff 2) requires
capital. 'Course, that's not the worst thing, but it means the
majority of beer will be bought from the expensive offie round the
corner.

- It's nice to have beer in the fridge on non-Tuesdays, without having
to bring it each time.

 Perhaps it could be modified to a 'beer pool' idea similar to the proposed new metal stock pile - you can buy in for an evening or pay some sort of subs to it.

although that would be getting worryingly organised....


Katie Sutton

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Jun 10, 2011, 7:20:12 AM6/10/11
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As mentioned, anything that requires buying beer in advance requires a
pool of money, with which beer is bought. Then people buy that beer
to replenish next time.

Personally, the only time I've drunk beer in the Hackspace is when
I've nicked a bottle from a friend who's brought along their own. I
drink the soft drinks and tea/coffee regularly, and slip a donation in
the donations tin for it (I think that's right? - it says "not beer"
but not "not soft drinks" iirc)

- but from my perspective, a carefully worded sign to the effect of
"this beer costs £1.19 a bottle, please leave a reasonable donation if
you take some so it can be replenished" should be okay for legal
stuff, shouldn't it? Obviously doesn't get around the problem that
someone appears to have half-inched some cash out of the pot - but it
is a fix for those who want to maintain the honesty box system, as it
simply informs people of the cost so they can make an informed
decision about how much to donate.

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Robert Leverington

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:07:45 AM6/10/11
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On 2011-06-10, Katie Sutton wrote:
> Personally, the only time I've drunk beer in the Hackspace is when
> I've nicked a bottle from a friend who's brought along their own. I
> drink the soft drinks and tea/coffee regularly, and slip a donation in
> the donations tin for it (I think that's right? - it says "not beer"
> but not "not soft drinks" iirc)

Sorry, that donation tin is only for funds going in to the hackspace
bank account. I will relabel it (again :)) next time I am in the space.

I think the best way to organise things like tea and soft drinks is for
people to just randomly replace what they think is afair amount based on
what they have taken and what is needed.

Robert

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:22:19 AM6/10/11
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Here's a possible notice to put on the fridge door :

"These drinks were bought with personal contributions, not common funds.
If you helped by providing cash or bottles, then you're entitled to take them.
If you didn't, then please leave them alone.

Keeping this fridge stocked costs about £1.50 per bottle."

Sam

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Jun 10, 2011, 8:34:28 AM6/10/11
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Hi everyone,

Just for those concerned, having a suggested donation sign, shouldn't
land you in much legal trouble. During 1st Thursdays the majority of
galleries along vyner street all charge for their booze on a
"donation" and none have ever run afoul of the law, and it's a public
event with a high attendance. As the Hackspace a relatively small
community thing, I doubt the authorities will be that bothered.

My personal suggestion would maybe to put a highly higher than cost
donation if the beer is £1.12, maybe suggest £1.20-£1.50. That way if
people are unable to donate, their beer is covered by others and would
hopefully stop a shortfall in the future.

Sam.

Katie Sutton

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Jun 10, 2011, 3:06:00 PM6/10/11
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On 10 June 2011 13:07, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> I think the best way to organise things like tea and soft drinks is for
> people to just randomly replace what they think is afair amount based on
> what they have taken and what is needed.

Aha, I have also been leaving bottles of drink occasionally when
taking advantage of BOGOF deals etc, so hopefully I'm even having
donated both money and liquid :)

Philippe Bradley

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Jun 28, 2011, 4:35:34 PM6/28/11
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Well, at the housing cooperative I live in, a 140 person community works quite well; surface subdivisions include physical (14 houses), budgetary (a ponds budget, a bike maintenance budget, a gardens budget, etc), and shallow hierarchical (officer positions for various things - e.g. coordinating maintenance of our wood pellet water boilers, etc), with extremely low (almost nonexistent) barriers to personnel migration between divisions (save for the physical, given that means moving to a new room, i.e. a new tenancy); parts of budgets tend to be repurposed, too.
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