New space?

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Robert Leverington

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:14:20 AM7/11/11
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Hi all,

When we become a charity we will become eligible for both an 80%
mandatory rates discount from the council, and for Gift Aid (which will
essentially increase by 20% all subscription amounts greater than �5 by
members who pay UK income tax). Additionally I would expect growth to
continue at the same, if not a higher rate that we have seen over the
past 12 months since we moved in to Cremer Street.

Combined we will hopefully see an increase in recurring revenue from the
current level of �4,800/month to around �6,000/month.

Cash on hand has also been a significant concern. Our lease requires
three months notice in order to break, giving us ample time to build this
up.

This expected increase in revenue gives us a great opportunity to re-
evaluate our current location. Especially as the new access control
arrangements are very inconvenient for our purposes, and within the
business centre itself we are limited in terms of expansion as both units
either side of ours' are occupied. Importantly however, our current
situation is stable so we are in no hurry to find a new space - giving us
a good chance to perform a thorough search. (Although I believe it was
an excellent choice and has enabled the hackspace to flourish, Cremer
Street ultimately chosen with extreme haste due to the circumstances at
the time.)

I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
transport network.

Therefore, I would like to propose that we at least consider the
possibility of moving location in the short-term future.

I would suggest the following requirements, based on those we used for
the search last year:
- At least 3000 sqft,
- In Zone 1,
- B1 or B2 use class,
- Price less than �70,000/year (inc. service charge & VAT)
- No more than 0.5 miles to a tube station

Our budget would give us much greater flexibility than last year,
enabling us to look at properties charging as much as �20/sqft./annum.

Other issues are:

Leaving Cremer Street:
We need to return the two units to how they were when we arrived, this
will require quite a bit of work.

Moving itself:
Last time we did this it took a day to move all our stuff from an 800
sqft. space to Cremer Street, not including packing. This will be an
enormous task, and will take at least an entire weekend. It will also
see some of our main equipment offline for a short while.

Build-out of the new space:
There's no guarentee that any location we find will have all the
ammenities we need, so it's likely we'll have to budget for things such
as fitting the kitchen, installing partitions, installing new flooring.
Fortunatley we should have a decent level of cash on hand.

Potential for new features:
The right space could allow us to run things such as a permanent licensed
bar, which could be a boon to the hackspace and also increase our
revenue.

What does everyone think?

Robert

Philippe Bradley

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:25:54 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 11:14, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
> London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
> are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
> get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
> transport network.

It would be interesting to support this assumption with data; perhaps
a 'pins on the map' way of letting people show where they reside and
where they are during the day, and maybe having an algo figure out
optimal spots based on that data?

Russ Garrett

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:29:08 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 11:25, Philippe Bradley <philb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be interesting to support this assumption with data; perhaps
> a 'pins on the map' way of letting people show where they reside and
> where they are during the day, and maybe having an algo figure out
> optimal spots based on that data?

We did this before and concluded that hackers are evenly spread out
around London. Therefore, the closer the space is to the centre, the
closer it is to everyone.

Obviously, existing members are more likely to live closer to the
space. So if you do it based on membership data, you have a positive
feedback loop.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Elliot West

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:33:20 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 11:29, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
We did this before and concluded that hackers are evenly spread out
around London. Therefore, the closer the space is to the centre, the
closer it is to everyone.

Would it be worth getting in contact with Somerset House again?

Robert Leverington

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:35:36 AM7/11/11
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We can plot this from the address data in the membership list (of course
we wouldn't be able to publish this directly though), I think Russ did
something similar when we applied for a rates discount to Hackney
council.

In any case, I don't think we will have a huge amount of choice over the
location itself. While we would be able to broadly pick an area we want
the space to be, suitable properties are so few and far between that
there is very little flexibility. The only reason we are in Hoxton
right now for example, is because it was the *only* option we had after
2-3 months searching.

Robert

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 11, 2011, 6:39:00 AM7/11/11
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On 7/11/11, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
>
> What does everyone think?
>

Horrible to contemplate, but good to start putting together research
now rather than at some urgent time in the future. Availability of
premises, though, is always going to be a bit transient. If we
bikeshed the idea to death we run a danger of specifying the
replacement too tightly to permit anywhere to match.

It seems wise to have an idea of how long we'll be in Cremer St. It's
disheartening to consider projects like the kitchen if we feel we're
only there temporarily, but at the same time it helps us make sensible
decisions about how much cost and effort should be put into such
projects.

Wiki pages listing good/bad features of the existing space, wishlists
etc. would seem a good move. Perhaps they could be scored to allow
prioritisation.

There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.

-adrian

Alec Wright

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:05:12 AM7/11/11
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On Mon, 2011-07-11 at 11:39 +0100, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
> possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
> geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
> staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
> etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.
>
> -adrian

Just my 2p: I wouldn't really be in favour of having more than one
space, since it would be a nuisance having to go between one and the
other: what if you're doing a project which involves things at both of
the spaces? Also, I don't know if I'm getting a bit to philosophical
here and talking nonsense, but wouldn't that break up our "community" a
bit? What I like about the 'space is that if you're a complete noob at
something, there'll often be someone around who's an expert and will be
happy to help you out. And in return, there's always someone who will be
eager for you to share your skills with them.

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Robert Leverington

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:10:46 AM7/11/11
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On 2011-07-11, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> It seems wise to have an idea of how long we'll be in Cremer St. It's
> disheartening to consider projects like the kitchen if we feel we're
> only there temporarily, but at the same time it helps us make sensible
> decisions about how much cost and effort should be put into such
> projects.

One thing to consider is that we will always have at least 3 more months
left in Cremer Street until we make the decision where to move, as that
is the tennant break period in our lease. I think for most stuff that
is a reasonable period to feel it has been worthwhile. Also a lot of the
projects that are going on are things that we can take with us to a new
space.

> Wiki pages listing good/bad features of the existing space, wishlists
> etc. would seem a good move. Perhaps they could be scored to allow
> prioritisation.

Definitely, it will be very important to make sure that we are actually
benefitting by moving.

Comparing the various properties on offer will probably be fairly easy
as there will likely only be a handful that are even worth considering.

> There's more than one way to provide facilities. Multiple spaces are a
> possible alternative to a single, large space. They offer better
> geographical coverage, reduced problems with 'growing pains' by
> staying small, the possibility of specialisation (welding vs. coding
> etc.) which may offset the disadvantage of poorer economies of scale.

I am skeptical about the idea of splitting up in to smaller spaces, it
also reduces the amount of flexibility we have in rearranging the space.
Economies of scale also benefit us in terms of volunteer time spent on
chores and infrastructure projects, which is fairly low already.

Robert

Katie Sutton

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:23:52 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 11:14, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:

The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
cheaper trip. If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

scary boots

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:26:35 AM7/11/11
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Possibly relevant: UCL (WC1) wants to build a hackerspace in the next year or so (I seem to be involved in this). So there will be a tres central location, although one with some other organisational involvement.

Alec Wright

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:40:53 AM7/11/11
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On Mon, 2011-07-11 at 12:23 +0100, Katie Sutton wrote:
> The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
> is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
> space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
> Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
> from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
> cheaper trip. If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
> very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.
>
That's true for people (like me) who live on the right side of the
centre: my oyster fare from finsbury park is 85p.
But if you live the other side (south london), you have to cross through
zone 1 and back out again, which i beleive is even more expensive than
just entering zone 1.
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Katie Sutton

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Jul 11, 2011, 7:48:48 AM7/11/11
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Depends which bit of south London; it's 85p for me, too, and I live in
Greenwich. North Greenwich > Canada Water > Hoxton doesn't touch Zone
1.

Entering Zone 1 is usually the same price as entering and going out
the other side for me...

Jonty Wareing

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:04:27 AM7/11/11
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On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 12:26:35PM +0100, scary boots wrote:
> Possibly relevant: UCL (WC1) wants to build a hackerspace in the next
> year or so (I seem to be involved in this). So there will be a tres
> central location, although one with some other organisational
> involvement.

Russ and I were originally asked to consult on this, and despite our
encouragement it seemed highly unlikely that the facilities would be
available to non-students. Frankly I think it best that we stay well
clear of this effort, as it is going to have quite different objectives.

--jonty

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:16:56 AM7/11/11
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On 7/11/11, Alec Wright <ale...@member.fsf.org> wrote:
>
> Just my 2p: I wouldn't really be in favour of having more than one
> space, since it would be a nuisance having to go between one and the
> other: what if you're doing a project which involves things at both of
> the spaces? Also, I don't know if I'm getting a bit to philosophical
> here and talking nonsense, but wouldn't that break up our "community" a
> bit? What I like about the 'space is that if you're a complete noob at
> something, there'll often be someone around who's an expert and will be
> happy to help you out. And in return, there's always someone who will be
> eager for you to share your skills with them.
>

On the face of it, I agree. I would not suggest splitting the current
space and community up. Nor, probably, the next one. But neither would
I suggest combining London, Birmingham, Nottingham etc. into one
space.

At 300 members and a catchment that's pretty much bounded by the N/S
circulars except for a few outliers (including you & me!), it works
fine.If you imagine 3000 members and a catchment covering chunks of
essex, herts and middlesex, it's less attractive.

Eventually, it will probably operate better with some sort of
subdivision and the social edge of london is not well defined. The
question is not if, but where the threshold lies.

-adrian

Russ Garrett

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:19:19 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 12:23, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:
> The only thing I'd point out is that listing Zone 1 as a wishlist item
> is going to make it more expensive for some people to get to the
> space, if they use PAYG Oyster. Right now, Hoxton is on the edge of
> Zones 1/2 which means that if a member or visitor is travelling in
> from outside London, they don't need to enter Zone 1 and it is a
> cheaper trip.  If a property similarly on the edge of Zones 1/2, or
> very slightly into Zone 2, is found, I'd still be supportive of that.

Yes, I agree. I believe our original criteria when we found Cremer
Street was zones 1 and 2. And we should keep that. The tube station
criterion is much more important, I think.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Alec Wright

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:31:13 AM7/11/11
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Fair point, problem still stands with regards to transferring skills
though. I think if we had more than one space, they'd have to be general
purpose rather than, as you say, designed for specific purposes.
I know this is a bit of a long shot, but how many people are there here
from herts and nearby? I expect space is a lot cheaper round here, only
20-30 minutes out of london. Problem is though, even if you do live
nearby, transport is crap round here, and if you live in, say, hemel,
london is probably just as convenient as WGC (which is where I was
thinking) which would limit the catchment area to the east coast
mainline (hatfield, potters bar, barnet, southgate, islington,
stevenage, hitchin, letchworth, cambridge, peterborough) plus maybe
watford, st albans, hertford, luton, harpenden.

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Nick Leaton

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:41:31 AM7/11/11
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http://mapumental.com/ does contour maps of commute times. You might want to use it to evaluate possible choices. 
--
Nick

Russ Garrett

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Jul 11, 2011, 8:45:01 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 13:31, Alec Wright <ale...@member.fsf.org> wrote:
> Fair point, problem still stands with regards to transferring skills
> though. I think if we had more than one space, they'd have to be general
> purpose rather than, as you say, designed for specific purposes.

Jonty and I have always suspected there's room for more than one
hackerspace in London.

That said, spaces are as much about community as they are about the
space. Splitting the London Hackspace community would be poisonous.
I'm excited about the economies of scale and new opportunities which
come with a larger space, and I believe that our group should only
ever be about one space. I'm thinking of putting something to that
effect in the new constitution.

We'll give all our assistance to another London-area hackerspace group
as long as we don't think the effort will be destructive to both
parties. I think in practise that means that we'll probably only
support groups outside the M25 or perhaps in the far south of London.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

scary boots

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:09:11 AM7/11/11
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I see what you mean and agree that if it's not going to be outside accessible it's not of interest, but last I heard (I run comms for the engineering department) there was still support for it being open. I'll let you know if that does happen. Of course, if it doesn't, doesn't matter.

ad...@aden.org.uk

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:17:26 AM7/11/11
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On Jul 11, 11:14 am, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I would also expect that any move would bring us closer to Central
> London, perhaps further increasing our membership levels from people who
> are keen to get involved in the hackspace, but see it as difficult to
> get to due to its location and relative distance from the main public
> transport network.
>
> Therefore, I would like to propose that we at least consider the
> possibility of moving location in the short-term future.
> What does everyone think?

The current location is pretty good, zone 1 would make it equally
difficult for everyone to get to, would be lots more expensive, and
would attract more criminals and weirdos.
Maybe we should put a cap on the number of members rather than moving
somewhere bigger? Although the current place seems fine at the moment
in terms of space.

Aden

Mike

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:27:32 AM7/11/11
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On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 01:45:01PM +0100, Russ Garrett wrote:
>
> Jonty and I have always suspected there's room for more than one
> hackerspace in London.

I would support that suspicion.

> That said, spaces are as much about community as they are about the
> space. Splitting the London Hackspace community would be poisonous.
> I'm excited about the economies of scale and new opportunities which
> come with a larger space, and I believe that our group should only
> ever be about one space. I'm thinking of putting something to that
> effect in the new constitution.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London? I think that
it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
the space. From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
(Ealing), I hate the location of the Space. It takes me an hour and a
half door to door. I attend once a week and that involves making a
right effort. I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
will be nearly midnight by the time I get home. I don't feel a part of
the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.

I do think that London could hapilly support North, East, South and West
HackSpaces. I don't think that it would be poisonous but I do think
that we need to be mindful that if we do ever do an East/West split that
we have to ensure that we have the critical mass to allow two spaces to
survive.

I think a Central London Hackspace would be a great idea but I can't see
it happening. Real estate will get exponentially more expesive, the
closter to Charring X we go. Conversly, member density will decrease
exponentially the further out you go. I think there will be a sweetspot
somewhere that allows us to get a good space, at a good price, with good
member numbers. On the downside, that all makes it inaccessible for
people not in the surrounding area.

> We'll give all our assistance to another London-area hackerspace group
> as long as we don't think the effort will be destructive to both
> parties. I think in practise that means that we'll probably only
> support groups outside the M25 or perhaps in the far south of London.
>

Mike.

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danny staple

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:34:54 AM7/11/11
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+1 to this idea. We should keep the single foundation and common communication lists, and be happy to let members visit different spaces - that way the community is still linked. Members could then have a "home space" where their box is.

danny staple

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:37:32 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 12:40, Alec Wright <ale...@member.fsf.org> wrote:
This is the same from West London. The time it takes to get to/from the space comes out at 90+ minutes each way.

Russ Garrett

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Jul 11, 2011, 9:38:03 AM7/11/11
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On 11 July 2011 14:27, Mike <hack...@norgie.net> wrote:
> I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London?  I think that
> it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
> the space.  From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
> (Ealing), I hate the location of the Space.  It takes me an hour and a
> half door to door.  I attend once a week and that involves making a
> right effort.  I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
> will be nearly midnight by the time I get home.  I don't feel a part of
> the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.

I believe the correct term for this situation is "well volunteered".

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Lesley Binks

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Jul 11, 2011, 10:46:50 AM7/11/11
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+1 also

I'm against splitting the existing hacker space at all.

My travel time to London Bridge by train is about 40 minutes - I can
get to Zone 6 to use an oyster card.
Then it's tube or bus to Cremer Street. - another 30 minutes or so?

Then I have to get back, and I don't commute in London so the total
travelling cost would be around £10 a trip.
I could cap that to £4 on my oyster card by getting the bus - at a
journey time of 2.5 hours - making it 5 hours travelling on the bus.
Which is a little unrealsitic.

If I was to ride over, google maps reckons around 50 minutes all told.
But I've viewed the local area using streetview and there doesn't
appear to be a motorcycle parking bay nearby at all.

Basically, the existing hackerspace is probably really great for the
area it is serving which is, as far as I can determine, the N/NE
London and Eastern Central parts of London.

I would be more than interested to set one up southside but I don't
have the capitalisation to bank roll it.
A west side hackerspace might well be even worse for me to get to.
--
Kind Regards

Lesley Binks

A: because it disrupts the normal flow of conversation.
Q: why is top-posting so annoying?
A: top-post reply.
Q: what's the most annoying thing you can do in email?

Mark Steward

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Jul 11, 2011, 10:49:02 AM7/11/11
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On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:46 PM, Lesley Binks <lesley...@googlemail.com> wrote:

If I was to ride over, google maps reckons around 50 minutes all told.
But I've viewed the local area using streetview and there doesn't
appear to be a motorcycle parking bay nearby at all.



Robert Leverington

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:00:23 AM7/11/11
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On 2011-07-11, Mike wrote:
> I'm going to hazard a guess that you live in East London? I think that
> it would be rather unfortuate to totally write off the idea of splitting
> the space. From the perspecitive of someone who lives in West London
> (Ealing), I hate the location of the Space. It takes me an hour and a
> half door to door. I attend once a week and that involves making a
> right effort. I'm genearlly gone shortly after 22:00 because I know it
> will be nearly midnight by the time I get home. I don't feel a part of
> the community, I feel like a stranger popping by every now and then.
>
> I do think that London could hapilly support North, East, South and West
> HackSpaces. I don't think that it would be poisonous but I do think
> that we need to be mindful that if we do ever do an East/West split that
> we have to ensure that we have the critical mass to allow two spaces to
> survive.
>
> I think a Central London Hackspace would be a great idea but I can't see
> it happening. Real estate will get exponentially more expesive, the
> closter to Charring X we go. Conversly, member density will decrease
> exponentially the further out you go. I think there will be a sweetspot
> somewhere that allows us to get a good space, at a good price, with good
> member numbers. On the downside, that all makes it inaccessible for
> people not in the surrounding area.

I think it's possible to find a good location that is easy to get to
from most of London.

A space in King's Cross, for example, would serve both North, East, and
West London fairly well.

Travel time to Ealing would be about 30 minutes, and less than half an
hour as far East as Stratford. It would also serve the North well, with
travel time from as far away as Luton under 30 minutes. It also has
lines extending deep in to South London.

Robert

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:05:43 AM7/11/11
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Is there such a thing as a map of London that's dimensioned by journey
time rather than geographical distance ? I'm not sure if such a thing
could exist given that journey times don't necessarily obey the usual
additive rules of associativity and commutativity, but it would be
interesting to see an attempt.

-adrian


On 7/11/11, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:

scary boots

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:13:24 AM7/11/11
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As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/ .

Nigel Worsley

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:30:18 AM7/11/11
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> As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/

Not a lot of use:
"the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and
we�ll send you an invite when we�re ready."

There is a working site that provides these sort of maps, but I can't
seem to find it any more.

Nigle

Philippe Bradley

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:36:20 AM7/11/11
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How about somewhere near Elephant & Castle? It has Bakerloo and both
branches of the Northern (as well as trains in/out of Waterloo) plus
buses in abundance (and railway arches for the hackspace!). Or Oval -
Kennington Park in particular seems like it has some nice industrial
units.

Nigel Worsley

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:55:19 AM7/11/11
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> How about somewhere near Elephant& Castle?

Wrong side of the river :-)

Nigle

Katie Sutton

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Jul 11, 2011, 12:16:27 PM7/11/11
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For you, perhaps!

Peter Hicks

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Jul 11, 2011, 12:18:35 PM7/11/11
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On 11 Jul 2011, at 16:05, Adrian Godwin wrote:

Is there such a thing as a map of London that's dimensioned by journey
time rather than geographical distance ? I'm not sure if such a thing
could exist given that journey times don't necessarily obey the usual
additive rules of associativity and commutativity, but it would be
interesting to see an attempt.

ITO World (http://www.itoworld.com/) might have something - I've seen their visualisations in the past and they are really good.


Peter


Martin Dittus

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Jul 11, 2011, 12:53:57 PM7/11/11
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Mapumental data is used for this free service:
http://www.where-can-i-live.com/


On 11 Jul 2011, at 16:30, Nigel Worsley wrote:

>> As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/
>
> Not a lot of use:

> "the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."

Alex Smith

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Jul 11, 2011, 1:03:14 PM7/11/11
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On 11 Jul 2011, at 16:30, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>> As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/
>
> Not a lot of use:

> "the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."

Sign up - a little birdy will make the invite appear.

Mark Steward

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Jul 11, 2011, 11:34:20 AM7/11/11
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Try http://sn.im/mymapu

I've seen a nice demo that distorts cities by travel time (like a 3D version of http://bigthink.com/ideas/21446), but I can't find it now.


Mark


On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
As mentioned above, http://mapumental.com/

Not a lot of use:
"the site is currently in a private beta-testing phase. Sign up and we’ll send you an invite when we’re ready."

Paul Dart

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Jul 12, 2011, 5:22:46 AM7/12/11
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On 11 July 2011 12:48, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:
> Depends which bit of south London; it's 85p for me, too, and I live in
> Greenwich.  North Greenwich > Canada Water > Hoxton doesn't touch Zone
> 1.
>
> Entering Zone 1 is usually the same price as entering and going out
> the other side for me...

You travel through Shoreditch High Street.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sdc/details.html
A zone 1 station*

*but there are some weird pricing details because there was a whole
argument about what zone to put it in. Google will tell you details.

For the record I think our current location of 'across the road from a
station' is the real selling point. Irrespective of what line/route it
is on. The old space was only 5/10 minutes walk from the overground
but it seemed much less convenient.
On this logic, I would much rather be somewhere like across the road
from Finsbury Park or Mile End, even though they are out in zone 2.
They have a couple of tube lines and plenty of buses.

So apart from becoming a holy war of 'At the moment I have to cross
the Sahara desert on the back of an eldely goat with no drinking water
uphill both ways. I want it 5 minutes from my house, that's the best
place EVA', are there any other points to be made?

Paul

Sam Cook

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Jul 12, 2011, 5:36:59 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 10:22, Paul Dart <paul...@gmail.com> wrote: 
, are there any other points to be made?

I think we seem to be doing this the wrong way; at the moment none of us have suggested actual possible units for hire so all debate about where etc seem to be bikeshedding. By all means argue that place X is better than Y but we need some reasons; I think also we should consider a few other things first:

a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at the space (eg kitchen)

b) What's our budget, both rent and for fit up personally if we get somewhere new I'd like us to fit it up fully before we move in (eg kitchen etc) so can we afford two places at once for at least 1 month?

c) What _exactly_ do we want; we all want it next door so we need specific arguments and evidence why it should be your door it's next to but what else do we want? Do we want a larger workshop? Separate wood/metal workshops? A full bio lab? Just a huge amount of office space? A huge fitted professional kitchen? 

So can we please move on from "it should be here because...." to (if we must keep with it) "it should be here; on average it'll cost X we can get Y&Z and here's an example".

Also for what it's worth +1 on not splitting the space; I think 2 is possible but will still have the same problem (either will still be 1.5 hours away for someone) and will end up with two smaller; less interesting communities. 

S

Robert Leverington

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Jul 12, 2011, 6:01:30 AM7/12/11
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On 2011-07-12, Sam Cook wrote:
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)

Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.

I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.

> b) What's our budget, both rent and for fit up personally if we get
> somewhere new I'd like us to fit it up fully before we move in (eg kitchen
> etc) so can we afford two places at once for at least 1 month?

Budget: �70,000 pa.

We will be running a surplus in the few months after becoming a charity,
so we should have a decent amount of cash in hand.

> c) What _exactly_ do we want; we all want it next door so we need specific
> arguments and evidence why it should be your door it's next to but what else
> do we want? Do we want a larger workshop? Separate wood/metal workshops? A
> full bio lab? Just a huge amount of office space? A huge fitted professional
> kitchen?

I originally suggested this because:
- we may be able to get somewhere with better access circumstances,
- our budget will be a lot more than it is now once we become a charity,
so we have an opportunity to get somewhere larger/in a better location.

> So can we please move on from "it should be here because...." to (if we must
> keep with it) "it should be here; on average it'll cost X we can get Y&Z and
> here's an example".

I agree, the number of suitable places for the hackspace is tiny, so
when we do find somewhere we might want to move to it will be a case of
"is this better than what we have now, and is it better than the other
options?"

Robert

Billy

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Jul 12, 2011, 6:37:42 AM7/12/11
to London Hackspace
I looked last year at a few places. Both looking for myself, and
pricing out places for the space. Note, this was before we opened 23.

I found one site in Bermondsey, that was nice. Large-ish warehouse/
industrial units, few minutes walk from the Bermondsey tube. Later
realised that it was run by the Workspace group, same people we are
currently renting from.

Why not ask to see what else they have?

Existing business relationship will make any transfer run more
smoothly.




Sam Cook

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Jul 12, 2011, 6:38:25 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 11:01, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
On 2011-07-12, Sam Cook wrote:
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)

Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.

This isn't quiet what I meant; I meant more of a when do we want to move; 3 months is minimum notice period but is this something we feel should be imminent or something to aim for the end of year? our member numbers seem pretty stable at the moment so I guess we can take more time for it so I would say we're better off making sure what ever we get is close to perfect.

I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.

I agree but equally if we do plan to move there's no point improving the infrastructure. I suppose my point is this: do we feel this is a "Oh gods we need somewhere bigger NOW" or a "When we find the perfect spot let's grab it" and it seems to be the latter in which case I think we should focus on exactly what it is we want so we'll know if someone finds it.    

> c) What _exactly_ do we want; we all want it next door so we need specific
> arguments and evidence why it should be your door it's next to but what else
> do we want? Do we want a larger workshop? Separate wood/metal workshops? A
> full bio lab? Just a huge amount of office space? A huge fitted professional
> kitchen?

I originally suggested this because:
 - we may be able to get somewhere with better access circumstances,

This seems to be the main issue and I agree that we really need to address it; that being said it's always going to be a trade off in a any sort of shared space (which the business centre is) so I guess our first criteria may be to find somewhere that is not shared in this way.
 
> So can we please move on from "it should be here because...." to (if we must
> keep with it) "it should be here; on average it'll cost X we can get Y&Z and
> here's an example".

I agree, the number of suitable places for the hackspace is tiny, so
when we do find somewhere we might want to move to it will be a case of
"is this better than what we have now, and is it better than the other
options?"

It seems that beyond the "Near tube station & good bus links" we really should focus on features. My proposals are:
- Enough floor space for separate storage (at least 50% larger than current member storage area)
- Possibility of creating separate metal work & wood workshops with attached materials room (whether shared or individual)
- Kitchen space
- At least as much floor space if not more to be used for quiet room & desk space 
- toilets (inc disabled access) 
- ideally some sort of shower room (or room that can be made thus) 
- several smaller rooms that can be made custom use eg fab room for 3D printers & laser cutter, bio hacking room, soldering room. All though these could be cubicles/ partitions to a larger space.
- preferably ground floor
- somewhere secure for bikes
- usable outside area; ideally large enough for firing trebuchet/rockets/pigs.
- a pony

S

Mark Steward

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Jul 12, 2011, 6:49:19 AM7/12/11
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On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Sam Cook <sc...@hep.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
On 12 July 2011 11:01, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
On 2011-07-12, Sam Cook wrote:
> a) What's our timescale; do we want to do this now; 6 months time or a years
> time? we can then use this to decide how much we want to prioritize stuff at
> the space (eg kitchen)

Our lease has a 3 month notice period, so until we find somewhere
suitable it would always be at least that amount of time before we move.

This isn't quiet what I meant; I meant more of a when do we want to move; 3 months is minimum notice period but is this something we feel should be imminent or something to aim for the end of year? our member numbers seem pretty stable at the moment so I guess we can take more time for it so I would say we're better off making sure what ever we get is close to perfect.


I can't imagine we'd move this year, because we won't be a charity before then.  I think Robert made it clear that the aim is to find somewhere ideal, rather than a hurried 2-3 month dash for shelter.
 
I don't think the idea that we could move should stop infrastructure
projects at all.

I agree but equally if we do plan to move there's no point improving the infrastructure. I suppose my point is this: do we feel this is a "Oh gods we need somewhere bigger NOW" or a "When we find the perfect spot let's grab it" and it seems to be the latter in which case I think we should focus on exactly what it is we want so we'll know if someone finds it.    


The *absolute minimum* of 3 months is enough benefit to make it worth doing the kitchen in my view.  If people disagree, I'm happy to pledge to make it happen anyway.

My proposals are:
...

These are handy for scoring the new venues during the search - I'll put something on the wiki after lunch.

Mark

Elliot West

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Jul 12, 2011, 6:57:30 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 11:37, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:
Why not ask to see what else they have?

Existing business relationship will make any transfer run more
smoothly.

Good idea. Their website suggests that they may have some suitable properties in SE1. The most central of their warehouse/light-industrial units appears to be Cremer St.

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 12, 2011, 7:01:34 AM7/12/11
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On 7/12/11, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
> The *absolute minimum* of 3 months is enough benefit to make it worth doing
> the kitchen in my view. If people disagree, I'm happy to pledge to make it
> happen anyway.
>

The kitchen project has been gestating for a lot longer than 3 months
already - probably right back to the initial move to Cremer Street if
you include the ideas for the existing area.

So while the current scheme of spending about £200 on the floor and
getting a minimum of 3 months use out of it doesn't sound too bad,
don't forget that we still can't use a cooker or a sink in there.
Cooker is worst, as we think we need to spend a lot on the electrics
(maybe £500 ??) and we haven't even scheduled it yet - just getting it
complete will take a fair bite out of that 3 months at the current
rate.

Russ Garrett

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Jul 12, 2011, 7:02:13 AM7/12/11
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I am not tremendously enthused by Workspace Group considering their
behaviour of late, and the slightly uncomfortable "revelation" that we
have so many people visiting.

We should collect a list of all suitable properties and then decide.
No point in preferring/avoiding certain landlords.


--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Russ Garrett

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Jul 12, 2011, 7:04:57 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 12:01, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So while the current scheme of spending about £200 on the floor and
> getting a minimum of 3 months use out of it doesn't sound too bad,
> don't forget that we still can't use a cooker or a sink in there.
> Cooker is worst, as we think we need to spend a lot on the electrics
> (maybe £500 ??) and we haven't even scheduled it yet - just getting it
> complete will take a fair bite out of that 3 months at the current
> rate.

I think the total amount of sunk costs into the kitchen will probably
be no more than £500 in total (including the floor).

We should not restrict our current activities based on the possibility
of a move in 6-12 months' time, I think that's a dangerous route to go
down.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Cook

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Jul 12, 2011, 7:18:29 AM7/12/11
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Agreed; I just wanted to be sure that the timescale was 6months + and I think the kitchen is certainly worth it. 

danny staple

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Jul 12, 2011, 8:38:24 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 11:01, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
How many Sq feet/meters are needed?


--
Danny Staple

Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple


Russ Garrett

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Jul 12, 2011, 8:40:09 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 13:38, danny staple <da...@orionrobots.co.uk> wrote:
> How many Sq feet/meters are needed?

On 11 July 2011 11:14, Robert Leverington <rob...@rhl.me.uk> wrote:
>  - At least 3000 sqft,

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

danny staple

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Jul 12, 2011, 8:58:51 AM7/12/11
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This one is right on the A40, outside congestion charge zone, North Acton (Zone 2, Central Line), 3050 Sqft
http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/london-commercial-property/light-industrial/north-west-london/2-cullen-way/
Kitchenette, Bathroom.

This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant units out there.

Danny Staple


Mark Steward

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Jul 12, 2011, 9:01:45 AM7/12/11
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It's on the wiki now:


Go to town, people, this page is our future!


Mark

Mike

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Jul 12, 2011, 9:41:23 AM7/12/11
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On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 01:58:51PM +0100, danny staple wrote:
>
> This one is right on the A40, outside congestion charge zone, North Acton
> (Zone 2, Central Line), 3050 Sqft
> http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/london-commercial-property/light-industrial/north-west-london/2-cullen-way/
> Kitchenette, Bathroom.
>
> This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant
> units out there.
>

In my unbiased opinion, that's a fucking awsome location!

Mike.

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Nigel Worsley

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Jul 12, 2011, 10:09:46 AM7/12/11
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> This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant
> units out there.

West London has quite a lot of industrial estates and more than a few
units are vacant,
they are way cheaper than the current space too.

A lot of users of the curent space won't want to travel out that far, but
there are plenty of others that either aren't members or rarely get to
the space because of travelling time (myself included).

These sorts of spaces lend themselves well to a more industrial scale of
hacking, eg. vehicles - I think Monster Garage was recorded in a nearby
unit.

Nigle

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 12, 2011, 10:25:16 AM7/12/11
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On 7/12/11, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> These sorts of spaces lend themselves well to a more industrial scale of
> hacking, eg. vehicles - I think Monster Garage was recorded in a nearby
> unit.
>

Without wishing to push excessively (because having a single space is
an excellent aim and is perhaps the right commitment), that's the sort
of thing I had in mind when I suggested multiple spaces that were
distinguished by speciality. Any members might use any space, but
they'd tend to use the big, cheap one for the super-big lathe, the
inspection pit, the awesome scrapheap, the loud party. Or the small
expensive one for the lasering, the beer, the roasted garlic.

-adrian

Sam Cook

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Jul 12, 2011, 10:36:31 AM7/12/11
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On 12 July 2011 15:09, Nigel Worsley <nig...@googlemail.com> wrote:
This is however firmly in the West. There seem to be quite a few vacant
units out there.

West London has quite a lot of industrial estates and more than a few units are vacant,
they are way cheaper than the current space too.

Can we move away from talking about where to have the space and look more at what we want? if we know that we may have a better chance of pinning something down. 

As it stands anywhere we have the space is going to inconvenience  some and be better for others.

Would many of our (current) users want to be able to hack about cars? or would a single large office space we can use for soldering be better?

To that end what do most people currently use the space for?

S

Adrian Godwin

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Jul 12, 2011, 10:43:09 AM7/12/11
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On 7/12/11, Sam Cook <sam.lind...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can we move away from talking about where to have the space and look more at
> what we want? if we know that we may have a better chance of pinning
> something down.
>

Kind of good to use as an example, and to flush out ideas .. "this
would suit us because .. etc.

I'm with you on going no further than that, though.

-adrian

Sam Kelly

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Jul 12, 2011, 10:49:36 AM7/12/11
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Erk, we have to have parties without beer & roasted garlic? ;)  And more seriously, I'd oppose putting the laser cutter and other fab machines in a different location to the hand/rotary-tool workshops and materials stores, because so many processes use (or can benefit from) using both of them.

I can see us hiving off a second London Hackspace (London Hackwest?) within a couple of years, but I'd oppose any kind of separation by function because so much of what we do involves (or is even just made possible by) having so many different tools and processes together.

Sam

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

Nigel Worsley

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Jul 12, 2011, 11:31:26 AM7/12/11
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On 12/07/2011 15:49, Sam Kelly wrote:
> I can see us hiving off a second London Hackspace within a couple of years

I think it will happen rather sooner than that, who would have predicted
a year ago that we would have doubled the size of the space and be
looking at moving again by now?

> London Hackwest?

That is the name I have had in mind for a while!

> but I'd oppose any kind of separation by function

Agreed. If there is a second space then it should aim to provide as many
of the facilities of the current space as possible, however, that isn't
likely to be possible initially due to cost. Also, it is likely that
certain niche interests will take off in one space but not the other
due to the different mix of users, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

However, back to what we should really be discussing: what facilities do
we think are desireable/essential in a hackspace. This list is just as
applicable to getting a second space as moving the existing one, we can
decide which to do later based on what premises become available and
the ever changing membership levels / finance.

I would suggest keeping the list as general as possible, include things
we would like but don't expect to be able to get in London, like the
trebuchet firing range mentioned earlier.

I have been making my own list of things which includes much of what is
now on the wiki, I will finish thinking it through and post it this
evening.

Nigle

Mike

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Jul 12, 2011, 11:36:12 AM7/12/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 03:36:31PM +0100, Sam Cook wrote:
>
> Can we move away from talking about where to have the space and look more at
> what we want? if we know that we may have a better chance of pinning
> something down.
>
> As it stands anywhere we have the space is going to inconvenience some and
> be better for others.
>
> Would many of our (current) users want to be able to hack about cars? or
> would a single large office space we can use for soldering be better?
>
> To that end what do most people currently use the space for?
>

It's hard to say what we want really. There are so many people who use
the space for so many different things. If I had to summarise it, I'd
say the space provides two things:

1) A place that houses communal tools that you probably couldn't justify
owning yourself (MRI scanner, 28-axis CNC machine, Large Hadron
Collider, etc)

2) A place that people can come to do their thing in a social manner

I think we've got that working pretty well at the moment. The two
problems I'd say that we have are space and accessability. I think that
our next criteria should be direct train line to Central London. At the
moment it's a nightmare of a ride into town from the Space and that
means it's a nightmare for anyone coming from outside the lcoal area.

So I think HackSpace is going the right thing, we just need more of it!

Mike.

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Lester Hawksby

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Jul 12, 2011, 11:41:05 AM7/12/11