Don't sleep in the fucking space!

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Russ Garrett

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Nov 15, 2011, 7:12:28 PM11/15/11
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I don't usually get angry about things. I really don't mind people
occasionally sleeping in the space, but it is now getting silly.

One of our toilets has a collection of toiletries to rival an upmarket
west end club. These should be removed by Thursday or they will be
binned.

Someone is completely taking the piss and it's wearing me down. I
don't think it's just me, you're diminishing the value of the space
for everyone by using it as a cheap hostel.

I'm going to give this one more chance, but if this doesn't work I'm
going to seek to outright ban sleeping in the space, and I really
don't want to do that.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Billy

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Nov 15, 2011, 10:23:59 PM11/15/11
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I'm not 100% sure, but i think they're part of the stuff that
Samthetechie was clearing out of his place, as he's moving house.

Think he dropped them off here so they could be used usefully, rather
than just binning them.

It might have been better if he'd dropped a note to say "Free
Toiletries, help yourself", then it would have explicitly stated as to
what was going on.
> r...@garrett.co.uk

Simon Howes

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Nov 16, 2011, 4:57:55 AM11/16/11
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There was a dreadful stink in the hackspace yesterday lunchtime plus sleeping bags, utensils, camping supplies dumped by the pcb work area. Apparently some of the occupy chaps had come to the space.

Overheard some conversations including that one was now effectively homeless, and the other boasting he used to "just steal everything" before joining the movement. Yes. He actually was saying that.

1% of the hackspace contains 99% of the cockroaches! #OccupyRoachspace

tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 5:34:06 AM11/16/11
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movement sensitive alarms are needed, if anyone is detected not moving
for over an hour then we trigger an air horn!

On Nov 16, 12:12 am, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> r...@garrett.co.uk

Bernard Tyers

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Nov 16, 2011, 5:40:28 AM11/16/11
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I like it...combined with the electrocution suggestion from someone yesterday.

All change!

Philip Clevberger

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Nov 16, 2011, 5:41:12 AM11/16/11
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tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:04:25 AM11/16/11
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FUCKIGN THIS

I'll get my spare shitty Dell setup with the kinect and work on a
sleep-sensor tonight :)


On Nov 16, 10:41 am, Philip Clevberger <philip.clevber...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> http://cominganarchy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/war_tub...

Geekinesis

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:15:54 AM11/16/11
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can there just be a vote on if sleeping is allowed or not?


i vote "not".

Geekinesis

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:18:20 AM11/16/11
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for this reason -

"diminishing the value of the space "

we are lucky to have a hack space, we should treat it as one.

tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:22:30 AM11/16/11
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No! All solutions to social problems require technology!

<troll>
More security cameras!
</troll>

Avishalom Shalit

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:22:48 AM11/16/11
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what I think inhibits people from telling someone "dude, you just left
a mess in the kitchen"
is that they are afraid they have no authority in case they get told
to bugger off.

they feel that their comment may be understood as "I am a nitpicking
ninny, and a pedantic overzealous cleanliness-is-next-to-godliness
ass"
rather than "I am the knight charged with the virtues of all that is
human, and by the powers vested in me, i charge you to clean your shit
up"

it should be made clear (somehow) that in such a confrontation, the
nitpicker is in the right. always.
and that the "space" will have his back in any argument.


seriously ?
(i am an outsider, you may ignore me. otoh, this allows me to speak freely.)

i mean i know it is hackspace.

but you are about to create an over complicated technical system that
will just be either circumvented on day 2 or annoy the crap out of
everyone.

it is a social problem, the solution however unpleasant will be social.
if you want to hack anything, take behaviors as a challenge,
hack your behavior
try to be the extroverted engineer who looks at the other guy's shows
when talking.

hack other people's behaviors.
what are the different ways you can get someone to clean up after them.

----

-- vish

Nigel Worsley

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:23:17 AM11/16/11
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> can there just be a vote on if sleeping is allowed or not?

Done:
http://www.doodle.com/498qqqt8c5cci3k9

Nigle

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:30:12 AM11/16/11
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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Avishalom Shalit <avis...@gmail.com> wrote:
what I think inhibits people from telling someone "dude, you just left
a mess in the kitchen"
is that they are afraid they have no authority in case they get told
to bugger off.

they feel that their comment may be understood as "I am a nitpicking
ninny, and a pedantic overzealous cleanliness-is-next-to-godliness
ass"
rather than "I am the knight charged with the virtues of all that is
human, and by the powers vested in me, i charge you to clean your shit
up"

it should be made clear (somehow) that in such a confrontation, the
nitpicker is in the right. always.
and that the "space" will have his back in any argument.


Agreed, and this is enshrined in the Rules.  However, I suspect the people causing trouble have neither read the rules or anything on this mailing list.

 

seriously ?
(i am an outsider, you may ignore me. otoh, this allows me to speak freely.)

i mean i know it is hackspace.

but you are about to create an over complicated technical system that
will just be either circumvented on day 2 or annoy the crap out of
everyone.


It's called trolling.  Nobody's actually going to do it, but it's amusing to toy with the idea.
 
it is a social problem, the solution however unpleasant will be social.
if you want to hack anything, take behaviors as a challenge,
hack your behavior
try to be the extroverted engineer who looks at the other guy's shows
when talking.
 
hack other people's behaviors.
what are the different ways you can get someone to clean up after them.


I quite like well-written signs - might have a go at making some this weekend.


Sam Cook

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:29:54 AM11/16/11
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I think the "tell people off" solution is going to fail for one simple reason (WRT the kitchen): people are in the kitchen because they're cooking, once they've cooked they leave. Others don't then check that they've cleaned stuff up; they're doing their own stuff.

This is true for the space in general; I know I don't monitor what everyone else is doing. There are times when I've gone to talk to someone who was sitting near me only to realise they left 20 minutes ago. 

S

Martin Klang

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:31:02 AM11/16/11
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beeep! wrong question.

change to:
should we institute lots of rules about what is allowed in the hackspace and what is not?

/m

Alex Pounds

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:41:25 AM11/16/11
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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:29:54AM +0000, Sam Cook wrote:
> I think the "tell people off" solution is going to fail for one simple
> reason (WRT the kitchen): people are in the kitchen because they're
> cooking, once they've cooked they leave. Others don't then check that
> they've cleaned stuff up; they're doing their own stuff.

So what you're saying is: we need Hackspace prefects, right?

--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

Toby Catlin

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:42:59 AM11/16/11
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We have tried to be nice and accommodate people sleeping in the space in emergencies and it has been abused. So I think a total ban is the only way to go. 

<tangent>
As far as the technical solution to a social problem, I would like a sleep detector/alarm to wake me and prevent me from waking up freezing cold at 3am. 

I think tracking motion alone won't be effective as someone sleeping can move and someone who is awake can remain pretty still if just watching tele. Breathing is inconsistent so i think it will be hard to filter out. I am not sure heart rate is significantly different between sleeping and very relaxed (or some level of drunkness). Tracking if the eyes are open seems to be the best way to me, a webcam and opencv might be able to do it. 

I would be interested in anyones thoughts on the best way to detect a sleeping person.

</tangent>
t

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:43:59 AM11/16/11
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Wrong process, imho - voting is a pretty blunt tool.  If someone makes a good case that sleeping has been shown to be untenable, we can update the guidance in the already existing rule on sleeping.  Explaining the situation during the tours as Morris has done will be far more useful, and won't be represented in a binary vote.

I don't think the space being (allegedly) #occupied at the weekend shows the guidance is wrong, only that we need to be careful about why people come into the space in the first place.

Mark

Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:46:15 AM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 11:43, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wrong process, imho - voting is a pretty blunt tool.

Yeah but it seems to be the best way to actually make decisions.
Otherwise we just debate forever (c.f. cameras).

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:49:12 AM11/16/11
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I think that's a good example of where a vote wouldn't have ended up with the situation we settled on in the end. (My wiki page was an approximation at a vote, and consistently put "leave them public" as the winner.)

Sam Cook

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:49:37 AM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 11:46, Tim Hutt <tdh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Otherwise we just debate forever (c.f. cameras).

DONT MENTION THEM!

Do not awake that which slumbers, least the thin piping stops and the idiot god wakens....

Sean O'Halloran

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:23:48 AM11/16/11
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*sleeps*

tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 7:03:22 AM11/16/11
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apply skeletal tracking to all people in view, if the angle between
the spinal bone and a plane formed by the floor is < 20 degrees or so
and stays that way for an hour or so then that person is probably
sleeping :) It takes into account rotations around the spinal axis
(i.e. "tossing and turning"). but fails if people sleep sitting up

Obviously this wont ever get written or used but its an interesting
thought experiment :)
> > Done:http://www.doodle.com/**498qqqt8c5cci3k9<http://www.doodle.com/498qqqt8c5cci3k9>
>
> > Nigle
Message has been deleted

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 16, 2011, 11:51:20 AM11/16/11
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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Big Will <william.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who on this mailing list can provide the reasons they have had to stay
> at the LHS?  I expect most people have never needed to.
>

Fair question - I'm someone who has slept in the space in the past and
hasn't recently. But that's one reason I'm in favour of discouraging
it, but not in favour of a total ban.

I live 50 miles away : that's half an hour on the tube, an hour on the
train, then an hour's walk. I can leave the hackspace at a convenient
time after doing a useful evening's work and get home about 2am. And
then I can catch another train back and get there at maybe 10. It's
not a great use of time, if I want to be there two days running.

The increased dislike of sleeping isn't the only reason I've stopped :
two single train tickets cost no less than two returns, so there's
very little money to be saved by staying. It's slightly more
attractive if I've come by car (not common) but next time I do that
I'll sleep in the car too.

-adrian

Sam Cook

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:00:08 PM11/16/11
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I think the big difference between a pub and the space is that people will sometimes work all night at the space. When you're at a pub you get kicked out at 11 (or when ever) but that doesn't happen at the space so it's easy to lose track of time and miss the last train etc. 

People have suggested an alarm for last train to X frankly if you want to make that go ahead, just as if you want a 9am 'get hacking' alarm go ahead. As I've said every-time this debate has come up I have no problem with people crashing over on a sofa etc. Especially if they're taking part in a hackathon or similar (eg. I've snoozed in the space after the laser cutter hackathon). 

The problem seems to be people persistently staying over several nights in a row and then it's a case of confronting them and getting them to stop. 

I don't like the idea of an outright ban as I now live about 2 hours (and 4 buses) away so late at night I'd like the option of crashing over if I intend to do more work the morning after (which means I may actually turn up during the week or stay over at weekends). 

And if you think an alarm is the answer then don't just bitch and moan on here: go and make one. 

S


On 16 November 2011 16:38, Big Will <william.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
It is an anti-social thing to do, especially for the people who turn
up to do some work the next morning and it smells like a bedroom or
someone is in their way still sleeping.  If you can make it to the
space, then you should be able to make it home again to sleep and turn
up again the next morning to continue.
We don't sleep in pubs or theatres, etc - other places we might be in
the evening.


Who on this mailing list can provide the reasons they have had to stay
at the LHS?  I expect most people have never needed to.

It is one of those things, where everyone pays towards the upkeep of
the space, and everyone should have the opportunity to enjoy it
equally - and this is obviously one gets on peoples nerves.

Avishalom Shalit

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:00:57 PM11/16/11
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let me suggest a grey area .
that may just permit it while disincentive abuse
sleeping at the space is allowed under the following conditions.
tl;dr; disclosed+costs money

1- it must be declared by the sleeper. before turning in (even a
minute before), the sleeper should put his name up on a designated
board on the wall/website (sleep calendar.)
2- it isn't free. the cost is N^2 pounds , where N is the accumulated
number of nights slept in a calendar month
-> so first time in a month it costs 1 pound, the second night costs 4
pounds, . . .the tenth night costs 100 pounds.


optional rules for enforcement . . . .
3- if you nod off at the keyboard for 10 minutes you are not sleeping,
but if you lay down with a blanket/sleeping bag, you are
4- if will be a serious offence and abuse of the space if someone is
asleep , and not on the calendaer

-----
if there are still to many sleepers , just change the function in #2


-- vish

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:04:40 PM11/16/11
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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Big Will <william.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is an anti-social thing to do, especially for the people who turn
> up to do some work the next morning and it smells like a bedroom or
> someone is in their way still sleeping.

oh yeah .. and late sleepers are a nuisance even to other sleepers. If
you do have to stay, at least get up at first light, open the doors
and clean up.

-adrian

Anish Mohammed

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:14:17 PM11/16/11
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U already have an NP function in place :)

Anish Mohammed
Twitter: anishmohammed
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/anishmohammed

Callum Finlayson

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:15:14 PM11/16/11
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Both the council and Workspace would have something to say about that
plan, and the something they would say would likely be very negative.

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:20:12 PM11/16/11
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Pity, it's not a bad idea. Though as with most suggestions,
enforcement remains a problem.

-adrian

Big Will

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:21:20 PM11/16/11
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Re-posting - I got rid of this before as it sounded quite strong when
I re-read it, however since some people are happy to reply to/agree
with it, I'm reposting for the thread.

Jim MacArthur

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:23:01 PM11/16/11
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I think this would legitimise sleeping in the space; even on the eighth night it'd still be cheaper than a nearby hotel. I'd be more inclined to sleep at the space if this were in place, ignoring the legal/lease issues Callum raised.

Jim

Avishalom Shalit

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:30:49 PM11/16/11
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legal issues aside (though they are important, just not my subject.)

closing your eyes to the problem (of sleeping/confronting people who
sleep at noon) , making it subversive, only aggravates it. and makes
it less likely that people will confront repeat offenders.
it must be brought to light.

to conform with the lease though, you may phrase it conversely

sleeping is disallowed.

if an emergency occurs and someone is stranded overnight, s/he will be
fined at the following rates
10 pound for the first night in a calendar month.
20 pounds for the second
40 for the third
etc.

to help us with the administrative collection of said fines, offenders
should register themselves on our online correctional wiki.


and in the words of John Hodgman john on the daily show
"you're welcome"

-- vish

Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:34:13 PM11/16/11
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Given that the reasons people sleep there seem to be along the lines
of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
*can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)

And to pre-empt the inevitable "But I missed the last train once!", I
would wager decent money that you wouldn't have missed it if you
couldn't sleep at the space...

Toby Catlin

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:38:45 PM11/16/11
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Surely the fine should meet or exceed the average cost of a local hotel. Say £70.

I still don't believe that people who are sleeping in the space don't have any alternative. There are lots of hotels, hotels, b&b or hopefully friends and fellow hackspacers that would put someone up for a night. Sleeping in the space is simply the cheapest and easiest.


t

On 16 November 2011 17:30, Avishalom Shalit <avis...@gmail.com> wrote:
legal issues aside (though they are important, just not my subject.)

closing your eyes to the problem (of sleeping/confronting people who
sleep at noon) , making it subversive, only aggravates it. and makes
it less likely that people will confront repeat offenders.
it must be brought to light.

to conform with the lease though, you may phrase it conversely
 t

Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:41:06 PM11/16/11
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On 16/11/2011 11:42, Toby Catlin wrote:
> We have tried to be nice and accommodate people sleeping in the space in
> emergencies and it has been abused. So I think a total ban is the only
> way to go.
>
> <tangent>
> As far as the technical solution to a social problem, I would like a
> sleep detector/alarm to wake me and prevent me from waking up freezing
> cold at 3am.
>
> I think tracking motion alone won't be effective as someone sleeping can
> move and someone who is awake can remain pretty still if just watching
> tele. Breathing is inconsistent so i think it will be hard to filter
> out. I am not sure heart rate is significantly different between
> sleeping and very relaxed (or some level of drunkness). Tracking if the
> eyes are open seems to be the best way to me, a webcam and opencv might
> be able to do it.
>
> I would be interested in anyones thoughts on the best way to detect a
> sleeping person.

Delta brainwaves.
If we're going to pedantically suggest more solutions to remove
individual responsibility for actions in the space, then why not go as
far as brainwave monitoring?

Sci

Anish

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:43:34 PM11/16/11
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Btw delta waves doesn't assure sleep doesn't occur without it :)
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:50:14 PM11/16/11
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<blink>SATIRE</blink>
Good grief mom, there's no school in the morning why can't we sleep-in?
And why should I be the one to clean up? That's what we have cleaners
for now!
<blink>SATIRE</blink>

That said, here's another possible level of pointless rule obscuration:
Sleeping on the sofas or beanbag are banned. You're only allowed to
sleep there if you use the provided (single) hackspace hammock. It will
be secured from the ceiling above the woodpile.

Sci

Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:55:03 PM11/16/11
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That would of course mean confronting the person who did the sleeping
and getting them to pay up. Which if we take the same model for
accountability as keeping the space clean, means we'll need to employ a
receptionist. Possibly a porter too.

At what point do we stop working toward getting the space declared a
charity and start working toward getting it declared a B&B?

Sci

On 16/11/2011 17:38, Toby Catlin wrote:
> Surely the fine should meet or exceed the average cost of a local hotel.
> Say �70.
>
> I still don't believe that people who are sleeping in the space don't
> have any alternative. There are lots of hotels, hotels, b&b or
> hopefully friends and fellow hackspacers that would put someone up for a
> night. Sleeping in the space is simply the cheapest and easiest.
>
>
> t
>
> On 16 November 2011 17:30, Avishalom Shalit <avis...@gmail.com

Tim Burrell-Saward

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Nov 16, 2011, 12:58:27 PM11/16/11
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Hi guys,

As a new member to the space I'm conscious of wading into discussions
like this, but this post as well as the cleaning thread have got me a
little worried.

One of the things that attracted me to the space in the first place
was the fact that it seemed to exist just fine without needing rules
to stop people taking the piss. It essentially runs on common sense
and respect, which is absolutely fantastic and in my opinion must be
protected. I totally agree that if the space is being mistreated,
steps should be taken to rectify it, but I can't help but worry that
introducing site-wide rules and policies will harm the freedom that
makes the space so attractive.

Rather than banning people from sleeping in the space, why not deal
with problems on a case by case basis? If someone is identified as
taking the piss, we should really all be grown up enough to be able to
have a polite word. I would certainly have no problem in waking
someone up if they're taking up space that I need to use. I don't
think it's confrontational, just normal behaviour.

As far as my preference on the matter - if I'm working on a project so
late that I don't have it in me to get home, I'd like to think that
I'll be ok to crawl under a desk somewhere out of the way to get a few
hours sleep. I'd definitely make sure I was up early enough so not to
affect the day crowd, and I certainly wouldn't do the same thing over
a period of days. Similarly, If I make a mess I clear it up. Common
sense & respect, innit.

My point - be careful when talking about introducing rules. They have
a habit of making things messy.

phil jones

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:07:03 PM11/16/11
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"Given that the reasons people sleep there seem to be along the lines
of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
*can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)"

Go on then ... (
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hotel&hl=en&ll=51.531828,-0.075252&spn=0.003724,0.010568&sll=51.531154,-0.075767&sspn=0.003724,0.010568&vpsrc=6&t=m&radius=0.27&hq=hotel&z=17
)

I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
say, Kings Cross anyway.

Wasn't there a hackspace van around at some point? Or, if not, could
we acquire some sort of non-working vehicle and have it done out as an
emergency sleeping facility?

phil

Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:07:14 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 17:58, Tim Burrell-Saward <t...@timburrellsaward.com> wrote:
> Rather than banning people from sleeping in the space, why not deal
> with problems on a case by case basis?

I think because no-one wants to feel like a dick and wake someone up.

I think it would be nice if sleeping were allowed as a last resort,
but you can't say "Sleeping is only allowed as a last resort" without
people sleeping as a second resort... So better on balance to ban it
outright.

Russ Garrett

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:08:52 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 17:58, Tim Burrell-Saward <t...@timburrellsaward.com> wrote:
> My point - be careful when talking about introducing rules. They have
> a habit of making things messy.

I totally agree. The entire set of rules is here - they change rarely
and are intentionally broad:

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules

Earlier this year, after much debate, we added the "You should not
sleep in the space" rule because people were taking the piss. It
doesn't seem to have helped much, but it at least lets people know
what the deal is.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Tim Hutt

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:25:21 PM11/16/11
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Ok: http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Sleeping

> I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
> something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
> find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
> say, Kings Cross anyway.

I hate planning ahead as much as the next guy, but I still don't think
"I didn't want to go home / book a hotel" is very convincing...

Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:27:59 PM11/16/11
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On 16/11/2011 18:07, phil jones wrote:
> "Given that the reasons people sleep there seem to be along the lines
> of "It takes too long to get home" rather than "I missed the train and
> *can't* get home", perhaps we should ban sleeping and compile a list
> of cheap nearby hotels. (Well, "cheap" anyway.)"
>
> Go on then ... (
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hotel&hl=en&ll=51.531828,-0.075252&spn=0.003724,0.010568&sll=51.531154,-0.075767&sspn=0.003724,0.010568&vpsrc=6&t=m&radius=0.27&hq=hotel&z=17
> )
>
> I'm guessing that the reason people sleep is that they want to work on
> something until they're tired. By which time it's probably too late to
> find a room at a hotel, and they probably don't want to trog off to,
> say, Kings Cross anyway.
>
> Wasn't there a hackspace van around at some point? Or, if not, could
> we acquire some sort of non-working vehicle and have it done out as an
> emergency sleeping facility?

To the best of my knowledge the hackspace van covered all those bases.
It was a "camper", it was non-working, it was located in the car-park.
It was also never used, never repaired, and somehow still got stolen.

Plus I'd suspect camping in the car-park would also be against the
tenancy agreement.

Sci

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:28:27 PM11/16/11
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It's also because the sleeping and mess-making generally happen when nobody who cares is around, which makes it difficult to point the finger.

I speak at least for myself here, but there are a few people who keep a vague eye on the webcams and will make a point to tidy/complain as appropriate.  However, the mess and sleepers seem to appear when the webcams are off or I'm asleep.  I wonder whether it's just part of the behaviour of a group to subconsciously decide not to care when nobody's around, or without regular reminders to self-check.


Mark

Sci

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:30:43 PM11/16/11
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On 16/11/2011 00:12, Russ Garrett wrote:
> I don't usually get angry about things. I really don't mind people
> occasionally sleeping in the space, but it is now getting silly.
>
> One of our toilets has a collection of toiletries to rival an upmarket
> west end club. These should be removed by Thursday or they will be
> binned.
>
> Someone is completely taking the piss and it's wearing me down. I
> don't think it's just me, you're diminishing the value of the space
> for everyone by using it as a cheap hostel.
>
> I'm going to give this one more chance, but if this doesn't work I'm
> going to seek to outright ban sleeping in the space, and I really
> don't want to do that.
>

I hate to ask this, but has anyone ever been kicked-out-of/banned-from
the space for breaking the rules? Is there any sort of announcement
if/when someone is banned?
I know this doesn't address this post directly, but it does address the
tone of the other subsequent replies to it.

While I know it's better to deal with individual issues in private for
many reasons, when larger rules are broken it serves a positive purpose
to show the penalty for breaking those rules being enforced publicly.
I believe rules are only as strong as the ability to enforce them, and
if they aren't shown being enforced now and then, the perception is that
they aren't being enforced at all.

If people are continually breaking the rules, then accountability needs
to be forced upon those who are doing so, or risk ALL rules being seen
as equally unenforced.

I'm also concerned that there might be a touch of "Geek Social Fallacy
#1" (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) at work here. No
one wants to be the one to call someone on bad behaviour because they
themselves don't want to be seen as evil/mean/unfair.
And even if they are, there enough members of the space now it's hard to
know everyones names. How do you identify someone if you were to report
them anonymously?

While not practical for the space in the same way, meets I go to
regularly now have at least one person officially on-staff at each, even
wearing a special staff T-shirt. They act as go-to person for the venue
owners in case of trouble, but also go-to person for attendees having
trouble or seeing someone breaking the rules. Stuff gets dealt with
immediately and quietly, but temporary and permanent bans are notified
publicly.
Perhaps running the issues like trouble-tickets, or having a contact
rota to similarly report issues to immediately?

Sci

tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 1:08:02 PM11/16/11
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> And if you think an alarm is the answer then don't just bitch and moan on> here: go and make one



<challengeaccepted.jpg>


On Nov 16, 5:00 pm, Sam Cook <sam.lindenrat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the big difference between a pub and the space is that people will
> sometimes work all night at the space. When you're at a pub you get kicked
> out at 11 (or when ever) but that doesn't happen at the space so it's easy
> to lose track of time and miss the last train etc.
>
> People have suggested an alarm for last train to X frankly if you want to
> make that go ahead, just as if you want a 9am 'get hacking' alarm go ahead.
> As I've said every-time this debate has come up I have no problem with
> people crashing over on a sofa etc. Especially if they're taking part in a
> hackathon or similar (eg. I've snoozed in the space after the laser cutter
> hackathon).
>
> The problem seems to be people persistently staying over several nights in
> a row and then it's a case of confronting them and getting them to stop.
>
> I don't like the idea of an outright ban as I now live about 2 hours (and 4
> buses) away so late at night I'd like the option of crashing over if I
> intend to do more work the morning after (which means I may actually turn
> up during the week or stay over at weekends).
>
> And if you think an alarm is the answer then don't just bitch and moan on
> here: go and make one.
>
> S
>

kev

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:20:26 PM11/16/11
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I would be in favour of sleeping being acceptable (i.e. not
particularly OK, but not going to get banned for it either). I've been
in the situation before where I intended to stay up working on stuff
but then found myself so sleepy I just couldn't. To say you can't stay
over all night and work on things removes the point of the space being
24 hours, but kicking someone out at 4am because they dozed off so
they have to wander around on the street looking for somewhere to
sleep doesn't sound very enjoyable.

I would be in favour of the discouragement being more social than
monetary - I think if we fix a £ price (cost or fine, whichever way
you word it) that this will make it seem more acceptable (as discussed
in The Undercover Economist). I think a big social stigma attached to
it would help more! Maybe a couple of signs around saying it is very
frowned upon and clear messages during introductions etc making clear
it is only a last resort and you should do something nice for the
space to make up for it. I do also think a big loud alarm at possibly
8am would be good idea, because this will clearly signify the start of
the period when it is plain NOT okay to still be asleep, basically
saying "We not best pleased if you've slept here but now that the big
siren has gone off, people are allowed to wake you via jugs of water
or fire extinguishers"! Anyone agree with the thinking?

Kevin

Tim Storey

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Nov 16, 2011, 2:48:28 PM11/16/11
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too many rules. sleeping should be discouraged. this is how, if someone
is in your way i.e. impeding your ability to hack away then wake them
up. same goes for cleaning really. the space is a hackspace not a sleep
space nor a make lots of mess that I cannot be arsed to clean up space.
the latter is punishable by electrocution the former by repeated waking.
I think there is no point making rules. as Morris says education is the
key my spin is we should not be afraid of confrontation. the lack of
willingness to engage in confrontation although entirely understandable
is in fact creating the problem, those that take the piss feel they can
take the piss because they get away with it thus the pattern is
reinforced. the problems must be dealt with socially i.e. by actual
physical confrontation otherwise we all get walked upon by the selfish
and inconsiderate. we get trampled upon and the selfish are not educated
in how to be a considerate human and not a useless component.

\t

SheraDreaming

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:01:51 PM11/16/11
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I like the idea of "real" sleepers (not dozers) having to do something
good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
or whatever.

However again there's the question of who tracks it, and it won't
happen.

Also not that we ever have, but we should avoid ever kicking people
out to find a hostel at night...I know it's 95% males here but as with
the sleeping in the van idea, speaking as a female that could be
dangerous and possibly liability-inducing. Let's have something that
works for all.

One problem with fines is that it means those who are well-off can
afford to stay and others can't. Not a binary I'd like to set up in
the space.

And Tom, you are hilarious. May I suggest Predator sensing + the
previously trolled "ooh ee" witchdoctor song[1] at progressively
louder volume IF you are doing this anyway--for sleeping, plate-
leaving or what have you. For a less annoying suggestion regarding
sleeping, perhaps the "alarm" could just consist of a very high-
powered fan pointing at the sleeper turning on. It'll soon freeze
them out if the fan's mooring is not easily accessible to the
sleeper. Then sleeping would need to be restricted to one area
though.


[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoBQWLE11NA

SheraDreaming

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:06:27 PM11/16/11
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To follow Tim's point, how much of this avoidance is caused by people
not knowing each other well or at all?

Should we institute some way of people knowing each other better, and
that way they won't be afraid of confrontation?

Tim Storey

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:13:55 PM11/16/11
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good point but there is the further point of culture, our (british)
culture is incredibly confrontation avoidance based as witnessed by the
problems of the hackspace, it's an issue that need addressing as it
creates no end of problems. in my experience confrontation only happens
when one party has reached the end of their tether and then reacts
(usually badly).
if you are upset say so with no fear. this is not to say that this is
easy but should be encouraged

Mark Steward

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:20:25 PM11/16/11
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On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:01 PM, SheraDreaming <killas...@gmail.com> wrote:
I like the idea of "real" sleepers (not dozers) having to do something
good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
or whatever.


That's actually a nice idea - it's much easier to ask "what are you doing for the space?" than repeat "sleeping is verboten".  It might even fit into the culture nicely.
 
However again there's the question of who tracks it, and it won't
happen.

Also not that we ever have, but we should avoid ever kicking people
out to find a hostel at night...I know it's 95% males here but as with
the sleeping in the van idea, speaking as a female that could be
dangerous and possibly liability-inducing.  Let's have something that
works for all.


Agreed, and I know this is why people have stayed on many previous occasions.
 
One problem with fines is that it means those who are well-off can
afford to stay and others can't.  Not a binary I'd like to set up in
the space.

And Tom, you are hilarious.

Oh no, he doesn't need encouraging!

tom

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:41:41 PM11/16/11
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this is all leading toward glados becoming an automated and
intelligent trolling-bot :D

I like the idea of "do something awesome for us and we'll do something
awesome for you" though, time to start building nice things for
everyone again*



*this does not include the monorail

On Nov 16, 8:20 pm, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Monty

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:52:55 PM11/16/11
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Income assessed fines. Simples.

Monty

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Nov 16, 2011, 3:56:12 PM11/16/11
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[citation needed]

SheraDreaming

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Nov 16, 2011, 4:06:45 PM11/16/11
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Ok Tom that I can help with, so put Glados on the new roomba so it can
travel and park under furniture, and put an extensible ski pole on top
so it can go under the sleeping hammock and poke sleepers in the
behind several hundred times come 8am, while blasting the witchdoctor
song and turning the ceiling fan on. (45 degree angle capability will
also enable crotch shots but that's another story.) Comedic value
high.

phil jones

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Nov 16, 2011, 4:52:23 PM11/16/11
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Perhaps this is a mind-hacker issue. Assertiveness workshops in the space?

Katie Sutton

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Nov 16, 2011, 5:16:07 PM11/16/11
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On 16 November 2011 20:20, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:01 PM, SheraDreaming <killas...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I like the idea of "real" sleepers (not dozers) having to do something
>> good for the space--hack something, clean something, paint something
>> or whatever.
>>
>
> That's actually a nice idea - it's much easier to ask "what are you doing
> for the space?" than repeat "sleeping is verboten".  It might even fit into
> the culture nicely.

+1 to that idea.

I've slept in the space before, occasionally when I probably shouldn't
have, but crucially another time the 'space provided me with somewhere
safe to go to after finding myself in central London at 3am with my
nightbus cancelled and a pretty mentally hectic evening - I needed
both sleep, and people around me, and I headed to the space where I
was able to decompress and kip for a few hours before going home once
buses were running again.

</tangent>

point being, seriously discouraging sleeping rather than outright
banning it, and asking people to give back to the space when they use
it in a way it's not meant to be used, is more useful to
members/visitors.

Expecting people to be up and hacking or off home by 9am is entirely
reasonable IMO, as is expecting them to provide something in kind to
the space. (Or financial, if they prefer to pay actual hard cash.)

Now I've moved out of London, last time I came I booked into a YHA
hostel. Starts at £15/night (+£3 for non-members) and most if not all
of them are open 24hrs, so phone numbers can be posted in the space
for people to call and see which ones have beds available. Other
budget options: St Christopher's and Backpackers.

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Earthshine

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Nov 16, 2011, 6:00:58 PM11/16/11
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The occasional sleeper that is on a mega coding marathon or that is in
a sticky situation like Katie is fine. It is the people that regularly
take the piss that gets my goat and who clearly sleep there as they
have nowhere else to go or so they don't have to pay rent elsewhere.
There are a small number of people that fall into this category and
who have overstayed their welcome in my opinion.

Christopher Fraser

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Nov 16, 2011, 7:07:00 PM11/16/11