Tools and the Tools who abuse them.

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cepm...@yahoo.co.uk

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Nov 22, 2011, 3:47:39 AM11/22/11
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Over the last week a number of tools have gone missing. Some have returned
after a quiet word with various perpetrators and some are still
outstanding. For some reason a lot of Philips/Pozidrive screwdrivers are
among them. Also missing is one of the wooden straightedges that hangs
from the side of the tool rack.

If you have any of these or know who has them please arrange their return.
Removing them (or any other equipment) from the space without informing
the mailing list in advance is very un-excellent behaviour.

Tools continue to be left strewn about the space, many of them abandoned
on the floor. This is also un-excellent. Much time is wasted by members
looking for tools because a few fuckwits cannot get it together enough to
put them where they belong after use. If you don`t know where something
belongs then a good hint is that the place where you found it might be
it`s home. Another tip is that generally similar tools are grouped
together. So, for example, if you are looking for somewhere to put a
screwdriver, the place where there are a number of others is likely to be
a good choice. Asking someone else can produce mixed results but is worth
a try. As a last resort you can leave them (neatly) on a bench so that
they can be seen and be replaced by someone who does know.

****** tl;dr "Don`t be a tool, look after them " *****


Phil


--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

Martin

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Nov 22, 2011, 4:35:23 AM11/22/11
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I know a few tools did get used at the bank of ideas occupation site, There is a hackspace being set up there, although obviously we want our tools back.  I won't be going back there until at least wednesday eve, so if anyone can check before then it would be really cool, otherwise I'll try to sort out the return of the tools then.

Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 4:54:14 AM11/22/11
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As much as im in favour providing resources to new hackspaces, im a bit annoyed we're now supplying a political group. Politics, imo, is a nastey business we should strive to distance ourselves from where ever possible. Politics means more drama and less hacking. It may also put off members or potential members who don't agree with this or that brand of political ideaology. Before someone does something like this again, could they ask the list?

tom

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:09:51 AM11/22/11
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<troll>also they're all thieving jobless scumbags and we probably wont
get the tools back! </troll>

Do we have a rule on tool-borrowing? Can I take the laser cutter home
for some private time?

On Nov 22, 9:54 am, Darren McDonald <dar...@dmcdonald.net> wrote:
> As much as im in favour providing resources to new hackspaces, im a bit
> annoyed we're now supplying a political group. Politics, imo, is a nastey
> business we should strive to distance ourselves from where ever possible.
> Politics means more drama and less hacking. It may also put off members or
> potential members who don't agree with this or that brand of political
> ideaology. Before someone does something like this again, could they ask
> the list?

> On Nov 22, 2011 9:35 AM, "Martin" <crysi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I know a few tools did get used at the bank of ideas occupation site,
> > There is a hackspace being set up there, although obviously we want our
> > tools back.  I won't be going back there until at least wednesday eve, so
> > if anyone can check before then it would be really cool, otherwise I'll try
> > to sort out the return of the tools then.
>

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:11:56 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 09:35, Martin <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I know a few tools did get used at the bank of ideas occupation site, There
> is a hackspace being set up there, although obviously we want our tools
> back.  I won't be going back there until at least wednesday eve, so if
> anyone can check before then it would be really cool, otherwise I'll try to
> sort out the return of the tools then.

Really not cool. They should have asked first.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:22:07 AM11/22/11
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I think theres a good chance we wont see the tools again if they remain where they are. Im sure the police will eventially raid the place and all our tools will tagged and bagged as evidence or thrown away by the owners of the building when they clear it out.

Mark Steward

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:34:36 AM11/22/11
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I tried to record what tools were there, but got told by a very grumpy troll not to take photos.  I think we need to get hold of one of the tech team.


Mark

Martin

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:43:39 AM11/22/11
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I stayed there last night trying to set stuff up in the hackspace there, if I can get an idea of whats ours and whats not I can get the tools back, but, again I won't be there til wednesday eve.  If you can get there before me it would be better.
Darren: subverting tech and being a hacker is inherently political, we should support such movements, you never know when we might be the ones having our doors busted down by cops and would hope they would support us when that happened

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 5:52:43 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 10:43, Martin <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I stayed there last night trying to set stuff up in the hackspace there, if
> I can get an idea of whats ours and whats not I can get the tools back, but,
> again I won't be there til wednesday eve.  If you can get there before me it
> would be better.
> Darren: subverting tech and being a hacker is inherently political, we
> should support such movements, you never know when we might be the ones
> having our doors busted down by cops and would hope they would support us
> when that happened

Providing people with tools is not a political act, at any rate. I am
more than happy for OccupyLSX/Bank of Ideas to use our space. I am
more than happy for them to borrow our tools, if they ask first.

I'm quite unhappy that they've decided to take our tools without asking.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:01:17 AM11/22/11
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And when they came for the smelly bearded open source programmers, i did not speak out, because I was not a smelly bearded open source programmer?

Sorry, but thats bullshit, hacking is about going beyond the apprent technical limitations to do something interesting and/or useful.

Occupy movement is about forwarding the mixed political goals of a various political groups. I dont see how the two relate.

Besides, occupy is being persecuded because they borrowed a building without permission, just like they've done with our damn tools, not because of their views.

Martin

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:07:40 AM11/22/11
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So, what your saying is, that hacking is about breaking imposed rules to do something cool and useful and prove a point.  Where as the occupy movement is pushing legal limitations to prove a point and do something cool and useful ...... u'r right no similarity there ..... 
I agree they should've asked about the tools, but that building has been empty for 6 years and could house every single homeless person in london if put to good use, UBS has no right to keep a place like that empty while ppl die of cold on the street.

Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:26:07 AM11/22/11
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I don't care how noble or misguided thier aims may or may not be. Im disagreeing with our involvement. Hackspace should, imo, be apolitical.

Tim Storey

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:35:53 AM11/22/11
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On 22/11/2011 11:26, Darren McDonald wrote:
> I don't care how noble or misguided thier aims may or may not be. Im
> disagreeing with our involvement. Hackspace should, imo, be apolitical.

I personally like Occupy, but I agree with Darren, Hackspace should be
apolitical. It's good to help folk but we need our tools back...

\t


Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:36:50 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 11:26, Darren McDonald <dar...@dmcdonald.net> wrote:
> I don't care how noble or misguided thier aims may or may not be. Im
> disagreeing with our involvement. Hackspace should, imo, be apolitical.

Hackspace is apolitical, and being apolitical also involves not
refusing people access to our facilities because they're part of a
political group.

The issue here is nothing to do with politics, so let's stop that
discussion here.

The issue is that members have taken tools without asking.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Jonty Wareing

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:38:12 AM11/22/11
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On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:26:07AM +0000, Darren McDonald wrote:
> I don't care how noble or misguided thier aims may or may not be. Im
> disagreeing with our involvement. Hackspace should, imo, be apolitical.

The hackspace IS apolitical, hence why there is an outright ban on
political posters/materials in the space.

We support everyone equally with an attempted lack of bias. If you
actually survey the members of the space the political leanings are
incredibly diverse.

Martin: Just because you believe all hackers to be in support of the
occupy movement does not make it true. In fact I know of a number of
members who are actively opposed.

Anyone can borrow tools as long as they ask first. Anyone can use the
space as long as they ask first. Breaking these rules is not cool, and
this is the issue at hand. Please do not bring politics into this.

Regarding the tools that are "borrowed": When I was over at the BOI on
Sunday and discovered some of the tools in their proto-hackspace belong
to us I was incredibly displeased to say the least. Calum and Abs
informed me that they would be returned to the space on Tuesday night. I
left it at that, as the number of tools I recognised as ours was minimal
- limited to a few screwdrivers and potentially an angle grinder.

If the tools are not returned by tomorrow morning, martind will recover
them tomorrow night.

--jonty

Simon Howes

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:42:14 AM11/22/11
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I should mention i did actually challenge one of the chaps borrowing tools - as he was taking the working angle-grinder. He took the tool in the end anyway, with the premise being that there was another working angle grinder in the space.

Not sure what you're going to make with an angle grinder though, other than circumnavigating security.

I'm not happy with this, I dont want to be tied to anybody's poltical movement. You dont tell me who the fuck i am and how i am part of your movement anyway. I'm not. I want the tools to be in the space and it not to be filled with a nicked shopping trolley with a homeless blanket and an xbox in it.

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 6:59:36 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 11:42, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I should mention i did actually challenge one of the chaps borrowing tools -
> as he was taking the working angle-grinder. He took the tool in the end
> anyway, with the premise being that there was another working angle grinder
> in the space.

Well, I was going to say that the rule is that you should never borrow
anything from the space without asking the mailing list first. But
that isn't actually a rule. So I feel another rule coming on :/.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Jim MacArthur

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:03:30 AM11/22/11
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If you know stuff is missing, it'd be useful to mail the list even if you weren't involved in taking it. I can bring tools with me to the space, but turning up and then having to go out to buy new tools is a pain. We won't shoot the messenger.

On 22 November 2011 09:35, Martin <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Paddy

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:03:29 AM11/22/11
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A rule already exists for that, because borrowing without permission is not
borrowing.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

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Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:05:38 AM11/22/11
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Totally agree, permission should be roughly defined as 'i ask the mailing list, and no one shot me down with 24 hours', i also think being a member should be a requirement to borrow kit.

Charles Yarnold

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:07:36 AM11/22/11
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Iw would be best imho if tools were rarely borrowed as it deprives the space of said tools.

Darren McDonald

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:08:53 AM11/22/11
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That would also neatly side step this political issue. Its not a orgnaisation which various members may or may not agree with, but simply a member borrowing equipment which if they have permission, is simply someone using one of their membership perks.

This also means someone is then responsibile for the care of the equipment and its safe return.

Sam Cook

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:50:31 AM11/22/11
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I'm with Charles on this. Tools shouldn't be being borrowed, certainly not for longer than a day. 

If it is a tool that we only have one of it certainly shouldn't be borrowed (sorry Abby, no laser cutter one-on-one time). 

I had a hell of a time using the mini-lathe the other day because half the spanners were missing (those in the range 16-22 IIRC), this meant that it was a real challenge to adjust the tail. 

I can understand nabbing a tool for a few hours because you need to put up shelves or whatever but longer than that you're potentially stopping other people working and that's decidedly un-excellent. 

</2cents>

S

Billy

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:53:21 AM11/22/11
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Does anyone have a list of what they have borrowed?

I have a few spares of some tools that they can have, which would mean
that we get those ones back without anyone feeling that they've been
deprived of the facilities.

'Twas in a workshop in Hackney, in a squatted community centre, that
Hackney Council were dodgily trying to sell to property developers,
that i first got to play with arc welding. I'll ask those guys if they
have any tools going spare...

On Nov 22, 12:08 pm, Darren McDonald <dar...@dmcdonald.net> wrote:
> That would also neatly side step this political issue. Its not a
> orgnaisation which various members may or may not agree with, but simply a
> member borrowing equipment which if they have permission, is simply someone
> using one of their membership perks.
>
> This also means someone is then responsibile for the care of the equipment
> and its safe return.
> On Nov 22, 2011 12:05 PM, "Darren McDonald" <dar...@dmcdonald.net> wrote:
>
> > Totally agree, permission should be roughly defined as 'i ask the mailing
> > list, and no one shot me down with 24 hours', i also think being a member
> > should be a requirement to borrow kit.

> > On Nov 22, 2011 11:59 AM, "Russ Garrett" <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> On 22 November 2011 11:42, Simon Howes <simonhowes...@googlemail.com>


> >> wrote:
> >> > I should mention i did actually challenge one of the chaps borrowing
> >> tools -
> >> > as he was taking the working angle-grinder. He took the tool in the end
> >> > anyway, with the premise being that there was another working angle
> >> grinder
> >> > in the space.
>
> >> Well, I was going to say that the rule is that you should never borrow
> >> anything from the space without asking the mailing list first. But
> >> that isn't actually a rule. So I feel another rule coming on :/.
>
> >> --
> >> Russ Garrett

> >> r...@garrett.co.uk

Jonty Wareing

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Nov 22, 2011, 8:06:29 AM11/22/11
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On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 04:53:21AM -0800, Billy wrote:
> Does anyone have a list of what they have borrowed?

Unfortunately not, and that is exactly why people need to ask if they
can borrow things before doing so.

--jonty

Big Will

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Nov 22, 2011, 8:14:26 AM11/22/11
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Surely people walking in off the street with no affiliation to LHS and
removing tools shouldn't be encouraged at all.

It's not a long road until removing equipment out of members boxes
becomes common [bad - but even worse if this is by a person
unconnected with LHS].

What if they take the kinect and sell it for £50 for beer... There is
no comeuppance we can bring to them or way to prove anything.

I don't see how letting non-members take any tools they want to, even
if challenged by members (as above) is a duty of the LHS. And an
angle grinder does sound explicitly like a chain cutting device....

Billy

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Nov 22, 2011, 8:17:08 AM11/22/11
to London Hackspace

Just spoke to another mate who works with a charity shipping tools to
developing countries. He's got a batch spare that we can pass on to
them, and then get our tools back.

What tools do they need?

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 8:18:14 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 13:14, Big Will <william.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see how letting non-members take any tools they want to, even
> if challenged by members (as above) is a duty of the LHS.  And an
> angle grinder does sound explicitly like a chain cutting device....

Several OccupyLSX people (including the people who took the tools) are
members. They are not "people walking in off the street".

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Martin Dittus

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Nov 22, 2011, 8:39:59 AM11/22/11
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I just called one of their tech guys. They apologise for how things were done, and he says they had already planned to bring them back yesterday but other things came up.

It is worth pointing out that we're not a tool lending shop. In some circumstances it might be possible, but it needs to be discussed first, it can only be temporary, and it needs to be with people we can trust to bring them back unharmed.

m.

Sci

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Nov 22, 2011, 9:17:22 AM11/22/11
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Idea: Perhaps we should get a couple of tool boxes with a standard set
of tools in specifically for loaning out to people? Official and
monitored loans, like library books only possibly with a cover
fee/deposit in case of damage/theft.

I should note it's illegal for bailiffs to remove property that can be
shown as on lease or loan.

~ Sci

Alec Wright

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Nov 22, 2011, 9:39:38 AM11/22/11
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Surely we dont want to turn the space into a tool hire service though?

phil jones

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:01:36 AM11/22/11
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Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
a log book somewhere.

phil

tom

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:13:41 AM11/22/11
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BRING ON THE EVER COMPLEX TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS!

On Nov 22, 3:01 pm, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
> a log book somewhere.
>
> phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Alec Wright <ale...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Surely we dont want to turn the space into a tool hire service though?
>
> > On 22 November 2011 14:17, Sci <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:
>
> >> Idea: Perhaps we should get a couple of tool boxes with a standard set
> >> of tools in specifically for loaning out to people? Official and
> >> monitored loans, like library books only possibly with a cover
> >> fee/deposit in case of damage/theft.
>
> >> I should note it's illegal for bailiffs to remove property that can be
> >> shown as on lease or loan.
>
> >> ~ Sci
>
> >> On 22/11/2011 13:39, Martin Dittus wrote:
> >> > I just called one of their tech guys. They apologise for how things were
> >> > done, and he says they had already planned to bring them back yesterday but
> >> > other things came up.
>
> >> > It is worth pointing out that we're not a tool lending shop. In some
> >> > circumstances it might be possible, but it needs to be discussed first, it
> >> > can only be temporary, and it needs to be with people we can trust to bring
> >> > them back unharmed.
>
> >> > m.
>
> >> > On 22 Nov 2011, at 10:52, Russ Garrett wrote:
>

> >> >> On 22 November 2011 10:43, Martin <crysi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> I stayed there last night trying to set stuff up in the hackspace
> >> >>> there, if
> >> >>> I can get an idea of whats ours and whats not I can get the tools
> >> >>> back, but,
> >> >>> again I won't be there til wednesday eve.  If you can get there before
> >> >>> me it
> >> >>> would be better.
> >> >>> Darren: subverting tech and being a hacker is inherently political, we
> >> >>> should support such movements, you never know when we might be the
> >> >>> ones
> >> >>> having our doors busted down by cops and would hope they would support
> >> >>> us
> >> >>> when that happened
>
> >> >> Providing people with tools is not a political act, at any rate. I am
> >> >> more than happy for OccupyLSX/Bank of Ideas to use our space. I am
> >> >> more than happy for them to borrow our tools, if they ask first.
>
> >> >> I'm quite unhappy that they've decided to take our tools without
> >> >> asking.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Russ Garrett

> >> >> r...@garrett.co.uk

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:15:31 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 15:01, phil jones <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
> a log book somewhere.

The problem with a log book is that then you have to combine it with a
long list of rules of what is acceptable to sign out for how long
(e.g. there are a couple of quite expensive specialist tools in the
space which I'd rather were not borrowed at all).

The advantage with asking the mailing list is that this can be decided
on an ad hoc basis.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:26:57 AM11/22/11
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On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The advantage with asking the mailing list is that this can be decided
> on an ad hoc basis.
>

The mailing list is going to *decide* something ? Good luck with that :)

-adrian

phil jones

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:26:53 AM11/22/11
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The point is that if someone wants a screw-driver, do they have to
wait 24 hours for mailing list approval? Surely a member in good
standing should just be able to note "I borrowed this screwdriver" and
we expect him / her to be responsibly for returning it.

If someone is a member of the hackspace and #occupy and they sign off
that they're responsible for the tools, we shouldn't have the problem.
It's just that member's responsibility to replace them / beg for
forgiveness if something goes wrong.

I agree bigger / uniquer items should ALSO require the 24 hour mailing
list approval.

phil

phil jones

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:28:41 AM11/22/11
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So what about one simple rule like :

If it costs more than 30 quid, ask approval on the mailing list with a
24 hour veto time. If it's less than 20 quid, note it beside your name
in the log-book.

phil

Monty

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:34:33 AM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
"Sorry, Gov'. I didn't realise crimping tools cost that much"


On Nov 22, 3:28 pm, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So what about one simple rule like :
>
> If it costs more than 30 quid, ask approval on the mailing list with a
> 24 hour veto time. If it's less than 20 quid, note it beside your name
> in the log-book.
>
> phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:26 PM, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The point is that if someone wants a screw-driver, do they have to
> > wait 24 hours for mailing list approval? Surely a member in good
> > standing should just be able to note "I borrowed this screwdriver" and
> > we expect him / her to be responsibly for returning it.
>
> > If someone is a member of the hackspace and #occupy and they sign off
> > that they're responsible for the tools, we shouldn't have the problem.
> > It's just that member's responsibility to replace them / beg for
> > forgiveness if something goes wrong.
>
> > I agree bigger / uniquer items should ALSO require the 24 hour mailing
> > list approval.
>
> > phil
>

> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:


> >> On 22 November 2011 15:01, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
> >>> a log book somewhere.
>
> >> The problem with a log book is that then you have to combine it with a
> >> long list of rules of what is acceptable to sign out for how long
> >> (e.g. there are a couple of quite expensive specialist tools in the
> >> space which I'd rather were not borrowed at all).
>
> >> The advantage with asking the mailing list is that this can be decided
> >> on an ad hoc basis.
>
> >> --
> >> Russ Garrett

> >> r...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Kelly

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:37:36 AM11/22/11
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I'd suggest something like "if you can't find another working one in the space, ask and wait".

Sam
--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

scary boots

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:39:13 AM11/22/11
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If it's between 30 and 20 quid add value or cause damage until it has a protocol?

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:41:26 AM11/22/11
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If we're going to brand / paint the handles, we could use different
markings for cheap / expensive tools.

"You can borrow blue tools for 24 hours. Ask the mailing list about red tools."

Russ Garrett

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:53:26 AM11/22/11
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On 22 November 2011 15:28, phil jones <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So what about one simple rule like :
>
> If it costs more than 30 quid, ask approval on the mailing list with a
> 24 hour veto time. If it's less than 20 quid, note it beside your name
> in the log-book.

It seems like all of the tools Occupy have borrowed have a value of
<£20. (In fact I'd wager that the majority of the tools in the
workshop are that cheap.) That doesn't make them any less useful -
sometimes the tools you miss the most are the cheapest. I'd say that
if you're that desperate to use a screwdriver, you should probably
just go out and buy one.

This is the kind of high-grade bikeshedding which writing rules ends
up causing, and this is why I fucking hate writing rules.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Monty

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Nov 22, 2011, 10:53:28 AM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
Too simple. Needs at least 3 colours and a tolerance rating if we are
to compete with resistors.

On Nov 22, 3:41 pm, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we're going to brand / paint the handles, we could use different
> markings for cheap / expensive tools.
>
> "You can borrow blue tools for 24 hours. Ask the mailing list about red tools."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, scary boots <scarybo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If it's between 30 and 20 quid add value or cause damage until it has a
> > protocol?
>

> > On 22 November 2011 15:28, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> So what about one simple rule like :
>
> >> If it costs more than 30 quid, ask approval on the mailing list with a
> >> 24 hour veto time. If it's less than 20 quid, note it beside your name
> >> in the log-book.
>
> >> phil
>

> >> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:26 PM, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > The point is that if someone wants a screw-driver, do they have to
> >> > wait 24 hours for mailing list approval? Surely a member in good
> >> > standing should just be able to note "I borrowed this screwdriver" and
> >> > we expect him / her to be responsibly for returning it.
>
> >> > If someone is a member of the hackspace and #occupy and they sign off
> >> > that they're responsible for the tools, we shouldn't have the problem.
> >> > It's just that member's responsibility to replace them / beg for
> >> > forgiveness if something goes wrong.
>
> >> > I agree bigger / uniquer items should ALSO require the 24 hour mailing
> >> > list approval.
>
> >> > phil
>

> >> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Russ Garrett <r...@garrett.co.uk>
> >> > wrote:


> >> >> On 22 November 2011 15:01, phil jones <inters...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
> >> >>> a log book somewhere.
>
> >> >> The problem with a log book is that then you have to combine it with a
> >> >> long list of rules of what is acceptable to sign out for how long
> >> >> (e.g. there are a couple of quite expensive specialist tools in the
> >> >> space which I'd rather were not borrowed at all).
>
> >> >> The advantage with asking the mailing list is that this can be decided
> >> >> on an ad hoc basis.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Russ Garrett

> >> >> r...@garrett.co.uk

Jasper Wallace

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Nov 22, 2011, 11:26:26 AM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, 22 Nov 2011, phil jones wrote:

> Surely, anyone who wants to borrow a tool should sign it out. We need
> a log book somewhere.

We have this on the wiki:

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Equipment#Things_being_borrowed

I think part of the problem with the current LHS/Occupy* clash is that the
Occupy* people arn't on irc/this list/the wiki and so there's a lot of
miss communication going on.

--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 22, 2011, 11:58:05 AM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Monty <mont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Too simple. Needs at least 3 colours and a tolerance rating if we are
> to compete with resistors.
>

A machine-readable colour-encoded barcode that can be applied by
dipping in a series of paint pots ? Sounds like it'd have some
advantages over machine-printed codes in some applications.

-adrian

Tim Storey

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Nov 22, 2011, 12:28:55 PM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
agreed.

how about...

If you want to borrow tools then we brand/etch/spraypaint/tattoo the
borrower. that should discourage it, those that are encouraged will at
least provide entertainment to make up for the lack of
screwdriver/hammer etc.

\t

Si765

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Nov 22, 2011, 12:52:46 PM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
Does this image help at all http://www.demotix.com/photo/930189/occupy-london-repossess-derelict-ubs-building-city


On Nov 22, 9:35 am, Martin <crysi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I know a few tools did get used at the bank of ideas occupation site, There
> is a hackspace being set up there, although obviously we want our tools
> back.  I won't be going back there until at least wednesday eve, so if
> anyone can check before then it would be really cool, otherwise I'll try to
> sort out the return of the tools then.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 8:47 AM, <cepmen...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Over the last week a number of tools have gone missing. Some have returned
> > after a quiet word with various perpetrators and some are still
> > outstanding. For some reason a lot of Philips/Pozidrive  screwdrivers are
> > among them. Also missing is one of the wooden straightedges that hangs from
> > the side of the tool rack.
>
> > If you have any of these or know who has them please arrange their return.
> > Removing them (or any other equipment) from the space without informing the
> > mailing list in advance is very un-excellent behaviour.
>
> > Tools continue to be left strewn about the space, many of them abandoned
> > on the floor. This is also un-excellent. Much time is wasted by members
> > looking for tools because a few fuckwits cannot get it together enough to
> > put them where they belong after use. If you don`t know where something
> > belongs then a good hint is that the place where you found it might be it`s
> > home. Another tip is that generally similar tools are grouped together. So,
> > for example, if you are looking for somewhere to put a screwdriver, the
> > place where there are a number of others is likely to be a good choice.
> > Asking someone else can produce mixed results but is worth a try. As a last
> > resort you can leave them (neatly) on a bench so that they can be seen and
> > be replaced by someone who does know.
>
> > ******    tl;dr  "Don`t be a tool, look after them "   *****
>
> > Phil
>
> > --
> > " et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

Mark Steward

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Nov 22, 2011, 1:43:45 PM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
I'd say at least 3/4 of that, including Sir Stanley (TM), belongs to the space.


Mark

Martin Dittus

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Nov 22, 2011, 2:13:54 PM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
I'm told ours are all marked with white tape.

m.

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 22, 2011, 2:33:44 PM11/22/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm told ours are all marked with white tape.
>
> m.
>
>

Excellent. Well done, someone.

-adrian

SheraDreaming

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Nov 22, 2011, 2:55:48 PM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
If we're going to have one new rule, let's just have two, the second
one being

DON'T SAY BIKESHEDDING

Kal

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Nov 22, 2011, 3:10:29 PM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
Considering people can bairly manage to get tools back to the tool
racks when 'borrowing' tools for use in the space. I am totally
against any borrowing of tools expect for in the most exceptional
circumstances.

WRT the occupations, they aren't the kinds of enviroment that I have
confidence in having our tools and expecting to get them back. A
certain lack of accountability (which is already a hard enough issue
within the hackspaces as it is) is what worries me.

Jakob

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Nov 22, 2011, 7:24:37 PM11/22/11
to London Hackspace
The new Bosch angel grinder that was removed from hack-space looked
like it was a 50£+. The other working smaller one, also Bosch, left at
the space, I got at a car boot sale for less £.

It was actually very useful to have two angel grinders. What I like to
point out with this is that just because there is another working tool
of similar shape at hack-space doesn't mean that both, or all three or
all four are not very useful for the space and will be missed. Some
tools are used by more than one person at the same time.

I am in favour of restrict borrowing, rather bring your project to
hack-space than hack-space tools to your project! Imagine the hack
space with only half of its tools.

But sometimes borrowing might be the only good way around your
situation,(shops are closed, you only need to use it once...and for a
short time) for these occasion there should be a good and clear policy
from hack-space!

I put my vote for a compulsory combined mail list announcement/
question (any member should have the mandate to turn the borrowing
down if they think they have use of that tool at hack-space in the
time-frame, please be helpful to your fellow member and suggest when
you would approve, or suggest why never is your answer) and a paper
list signing system with Date+Name+Phone-number+Signature. A maximum
allowed time of borrowing should apply.

Anyway, I hope the tools borrowed earlier this week have come useful
and are back at hack-space by now.

Jakob

Martin

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Nov 23, 2011, 4:52:57 AM11/23/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
How about the standard rule of hackspace - USE YOUR DAMN BRAIN!!!, If we go down this route then someone using a screwdriver in the car park must have a form signed in triplicate and filed with the president of Botswana 3 lifetimes in advance.  Don't go running off with things for days without telling anyone, if its a big item that will be missed ask first, however if you just want some small tools for an afternoon working on something that will be returned fast (same day), then just tell the people at the space or leave a note, no need for rules, just common sense courtesy.

Russ Garrett

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Nov 23, 2011, 5:01:05 AM11/23/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On 23 November 2011 09:52, Martin <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> How about the standard rule of hackspace - USE YOUR DAMN BRAIN!!!

Regrettably, if people had followed that, we wouldn't be having this
discussion in the first place.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

phil jones

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Nov 23, 2011, 7:41:33 AM11/23/11
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
It's too subjective. One person's "reasonable use" isn't always the
same as another's. What rules or guidelines do is make explicit what
the community norms are about this.

phil

Monty

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Nov 23, 2011, 8:23:50 AM11/23/11
to London Hackspace

Tim Burrell-Saward

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Nov 23, 2011, 8:48:19 AM11/23/11
to London Hackspace
RFID tags on tools + reader at entrance + foghorn = win?
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