Secure Bicycle Parking

[Ciarán Mooney]

Hi,

As much as it pains me to start a discussion on this particular topic,
and I do appreciate that it could quickly become de-railed we should
probably consider it.

Bikes have always been around at the hackspace getting in the way, so
we had to ban them from being in the space. We've also continually had
problems with members bikes being stolen. Some of this was down to
individual decisions (locks, and locations), others down to poor
facilities (bike shed at Cremer St).

After TurboMonkey's recent experience and the fact we now have a
sizeable car park it may be time to seriously think about proper
facilities to (a) stop people bringing bikes into the space, and (b)
have happy hackers whose bikes don't get stolen.

As far as I know there are a couple of pre-made commercial bike sheds,
with locks or other fancy stuff but I haven't the first clue where to
source these. Or we could just do with reliable sheffield stands. Plus
multitude of others.

Also what is the situation with modifying the carpark? Can we dig
bloody deep holes and stick stands in or is that against the lease?

Ciarán

ps. First person to talk about the colour gets a kicking.

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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I may be misunderstanding your point A - you're not saying banning people bringing bikes *to* the hackspace? Just banning people from bringing them *into* the hackspace, right?

I haven't been to the new space yet (university projects are getting in the way), but is it possible to put a shipping container in the carpark as mentioned before? Or a metal cage?

If so it would be possible to tie access to the container/cage to people's oyster card/door entry card, I think that would be a reasonable use of technology. And maybe a web camera to satisfy those who see the need for them.

The issue then would be to secure the container/cage, but I would think thats easier?

The lack of secure bicycle storage has been #2 reason I do not come to the hackspace as much as I'd like to. I can hear the chorus of "you're not being missed too much" but thats ok. (#1 has been university and lack of time to play, but that'll change)

Just a comment.

Bernard

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Ciarán Mooney]

Hi,

> I may be misunderstanding your point A - you're not saying banning people bringing bikes *to* the hackspace? Just banning people from bringing them *into* the hackspace, right?

You are correct.

[David Sullivan]

On Wednesday, 1 May 2013 11:07:18 UTC+1, Bernardo Neumaticos wrote:

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I may be misunderstanding your point A - you're not saying banning people bringing bikes *to* the hackspace? Just banning people from bringing them *into* the hackspace, right?

I haven't been to the new space yet (university projects are getting in the way), but is it possible to put a shipping container in the carpark as mentioned before? Or a metal cage?

The devil is in the detail. This is the 4th or 5th time the idea of shipping container in the car park as a bike shed has been brought up. I've nothing against shipping containers per-se, a converted shipping container might do the job. A normal shipping container with normal shipping container door I feel wouldn't as it'd be a door that would be more or less in constant use, container doors are a bit of a pig to open and close and wouldn't work that well for the frequency we'd be opening it. The other issue would be capacity, there are sometimes a large number of bikes parked outside which would mean some way of properly parking/organising them inside a container, a bare container wouldn't cut it there either.

Sully.

[Aaron Sokoloski]

What about just making the existing fences more secure?  Is it possible that the landlord would let us add this stuff?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_tape

It seems like it would solve 90% of the problem with a lot less effort than building custom bike storage.

[Nigel Worsley]

Beefing up the fence between the car parks would help a lot, or building a separate secure compound within our car park - this could
house the gas cylinder store as well as bicycles.

It needn't be horrendously expensive either:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121103453482

Nigle

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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On 1 May 2013, at 11:14, David Sullivan wrote:

> On Wednesday, 1 May 2013 11:07:18 UTC+1, Bernardo Neumaticos wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>

> I haven't been to the new space yet (university projects are getting in the way), but is it possible to put a shipping container in the carpark as mentioned before? Or a metal cage?
>
> The devil is in the detail. This is the 4th or 5th time the idea of shipping container in the car park as a bike shed has been brought up. I've nothing against shipping containers per-se, a converted shipping container might do the job. A normal shipping container with normal shipping container door I feel wouldn't as it'd be a door that would be more or less in constant use, container doors are a bit of a pig to open and close and wouldn't work that well for the frequency we'd be opening it.

Yes, I had thought the same thing. It might not be very accessible . I guess the cost of solution would be taken into account. If a purpose made bike shed / bike cage is better priced, then its possibly a better solution.

> The other issue would be capacity, there are sometimes a large number of bikes parked outside which would mean some way of properly parking/organising them inside a container, a bare container wouldn't cut it there either.

Absolutely agree. I have seen solutions with cross beams and "essentially" meathooks being hung from beams. Bike owner hangs bike from hook by front/back wheel.

Back of napkin figures, but I would think you can get 21 bikes hanging in a 20ft container, 30 bikes hanging in a 40ft container. (Based on a max handlebar width of 50cm with 30 cm clearance between each bike) [1,2]

Then you could build some stands on the floor of the container to possibly double (or as close as possible) the capacity. Simple slots to stand the bikes in would suffice..

How many, on average, bikes arrive to the hackspace? Anyway, glad to see a discussion on making things safer. I'm happy to contribute to the cost of this.


bernard

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container#Specifications
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_handlebar#Width

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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On 1 May 2013, at 11:21, Aaron Sokoloski wrote:

> What about just making the existing fences more secure? Is it possible that the landlord would let us add this stuff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_tape
>
> It seems like it would solve 90% of the problem with a lot less effort than building custom bike storage.

With the utmost respect, if I was a bike thief who saw a bike that was "worth the hassle", fencing isn't going to stop me.

Also, (with my experience), landlords will say "oh yes, its terrible bikes get stolen. Anyone dead? No, so anyway, bye." Maybe the new landlords are better. I hope so.

Bernard

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Aaron Sokoloski]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:32 AM, Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:

> What about just making the existing fences more secure?  Is it possible that the landlord would let us add this stuff?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_tape
>
> It seems like it would solve 90% of the problem with a lot less effort than building custom bike storage.

With the utmost respect, if I was a bike thief who saw a bike that was "worth the hassle", fencing isn't going to stop me.

I'm surprised, I thought that razor wire was a pretty good deterrent.  How would you get past it?

[Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb]

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Instructables to the rescue!

http://www.instructables.com/id/Get-over-a-barbed-wire-fence/

Or a thick mat/material lay it over and then climb over.

My main point was: scumbag thieves will get in to the carpark. Once they're in, make it more difficult for them to get at the bikes.

Maybe some fencing would act as an initial deterrent also. But, save using laser-guns as initial deterrent, once they've got past it, then they just need to carry on as before.


Bernar

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Nick Johnson]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Bernard Tyers - ei8fdb <ei8...@ei8fdb.org> wrote:

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On 1 May 2013, at 11:14, David Sullivan wrote:

> On Wednesday, 1 May 2013 11:07:18 UTC+1, Bernardo Neumaticos wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>

> I haven't been to the new space yet (university projects are getting in the way), but is it possible to put a shipping container in the carpark as mentioned before? Or a metal cage?
>
> The devil is in the detail. This is the 4th or 5th time the idea of shipping container in the car park as a bike shed has been brought up. I've nothing against shipping containers per-se, a converted shipping container might do the job. A normal shipping container with normal shipping container door I feel wouldn't as it'd be a door that would be more or less in constant use, container doors are a bit of a pig to open and close and wouldn't work that well for the frequency we'd be opening it.

Yes, I had thought the same thing. It might not be very accessible . I guess the cost of solution would be taken into account. If a purpose made bike shed / bike cage is better priced, then its possibly a better solution.

> The other issue would be capacity, there are sometimes a large number of bikes parked outside which would mean some way of properly parking/organising them inside a container, a bare container wouldn't cut it there either.

Absolutely agree. I have seen solutions with cross beams and "essentially" meathooks being hung from beams. Bike owner hangs bike from hook by front/back wheel.

Back of napkin figures, but I would think you can get 21 bikes hanging in a 20ft  container, 30 bikes hanging in a 40ft container. (Based on a max handlebar width of 50cm with 30 cm clearance between each bike) [1,2]

Then you could build some stands on the floor of the container to possibly double (or as close as possible) the capacity. Simple slots to stand the bikes in would suffice..

How many, on average, bikes arrive to the hackspace?  Anyway, glad to see a discussion on making things safer. I'm happy to contribute to the cost of this.

I really think we should avoid providing massively excess capacity for bikes. This will lead to people leaving bikes at the 'space semi-permanently, which brings with it its own set of hassles. If we provide sufficient bike racks - with some extra for busy days - and clear rules on when you can leave your bike there, I think we're less likely to have issues.

-Nick

 

bernard

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container#Specifications
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_handlebar#Width

- --------------------------------------
Bernard / bluboxthief / ei8fdb

IO91XM / www.ei8fdb.org

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[Russ Garrett]

Firstly, I suspect the bike was stolen by cutting the lock from next
door's car park and lifting it over the fence - so the thief didn't
even have to come onto our property.

I think installing some good, solid bike stands in the middle of the
car park (which is well-lit at night and covered by CCTV) would be a
significant improvement.

Shipping containers would probably require permission from our
landlord, and may require planning permission. They're also quite
expensive.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

Is there any evidence the thief actually climbed the fence? I don't see
any reason they'd need to. Just cut the lock and hand-over-hand the bike
itself up over the fence. Simpler, faster, less chance of getting caught
and noticed.
The only things that'd stop that are either making the fence too fine to
get hands or a hook through, or making it too tall.

Or, you know, we could put the bikes on the other side of the car-park.
Where there's a brick wall you can't really put a hand through.

[tgreer]

In the middle of the carpark?

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

If I may make an off-the-cuff suggestion; I still say we need a
gas-bottle storage shed. Any mileage in combining the two into one frame
and save some work?
A simple welded steel angle frame, open front & sides, some A-frames or
steel guides at the back for bikewheels to be locked to, opaque
corrugated plastic roof to keep the rain off (can't be seen thru to
judge risk/reward odds and be too flimsy to be walked on). At one end
box the structure in with corrugated iron or mesh with a lockable door.
Chain-hooks in place of wheelguides for securing bottles. Rawl-bolt the
whole thing to the ground and the wall by the back door.

In that instance might want to put a canopy over the back door while
we're at it though, otherwise smoking members might be tempted to light
up under the bikestand and so near the gas shed.

[Rob Kam]

Only locking a bike by a wheel is not secure. It should at least be locked by the frame. Checkout the London Cycling Campaign recommendations at  http://lcc.org.uk/articles/cycle-parking-design. Sheffield stands work best. 

[Nigel Worsley]

> Sheffield stands work best.

Yep, they are my preference. They provide a nice firm base for hacksawing the cable locks on, it takes significantly longer
otherwise :)

Nigle

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

That inverted-U design seems potentially easier to build ourselves if
that hydraulic press that was sitting around at Cramer St is available
for use.

This is working on the assumption that we'd need to make a shelter
long-term removable (IE, secure rawl-bolted frame), rather than being
able to cement such stands permanently into the tarmac.

I do note this site has them for just �30 each in a bolt-down design
though: http://www.broxap.com/sheffield-cycle-stand

Sadly they also have a list of colours they're available in. -_-;;

[Mozsáry Zsuzsanna]

> The lack of secure bicycle storage has been #2 reason I do not come to the hackspace as much as I'd like to.

This.

Zs

On 1 May 2013 17:13, Peter "Sci" Turpin <s...@sci-fi-fox.com> wrote:

That inverted-U design seems potentially easier to build ourselves if that hydraulic press that was sitting around at Cramer St is available for use.

This is working on the assumption that we'd need to make a shelter long-term removable (IE, secure rawl-bolted frame), rather than being able to cement such stands permanently into the tarmac.

I do note this site has them for just Ł30 each in a bolt-down design though: http://www.broxap.com/sheffield-cycle-stand

Sadly they also have a list of colours they're available in. -_-;;

On 01/05/2013 15:03, Rob Kam wrote:

Only locking a bike by a wheel is not secure. It should at least be locked by the frame. Checkout the London Cycling Campaign recommendations at  http://lcc.org.uk/articles/cycle-parking-design. Sheffield stands work best.


----- Original Message -----

From: "Peter "Sci" Turpin" <s...@sci-fi-fox.com>
To: london-hack-space@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2013, 13:05
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Secure Bicycle Parking

If I may make an off-the-cuff suggestion; I still say we need a gas-bottle
storage shed. Any mileage in combining the two into one frame and save some
work?
A simple welded steel angle frame, open front & sides, some A-frames or
steel guides at the back for bikewheels to be locked to, opaque corrugated
plastic roof to keep the rain off (can't be seen thru to judge risk/reward
odds and be too flimsy to be walked on). At one end box the structure in with
corrugated iron or mesh with a lockable door. Chain-hooks in place of
wheelguides for securing bottles. Rawl-bolt the whole thing to the ground and
the wall by the back door.

In that instance might want to put a canopy over the back door while we're
at it though, otherwise smoking members might be tempted to light up under the
bikestand and so near the gas shed.

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[invent_or]

It's also possible that you'd risk becoming a victim of your own success if there were suddenly a couple of dozen bikes there and people coming and going at all hours, since that would likely attract thieves. Once one works out that they can walk in and borrow a disc cutter to remove the locks from the bikes (or all the bikes) then it'll be a fun day.

So, CCTV, with at least one obvious camera, some solid stands for locking things to, and I'd suggest an artificial choke point so that everyone has to go in and out via the same route, ensuring no-one can sneak past anyone else using the bikespace. (And one route means just one covert CCTV camera could get very nice close-up photos of anyone using the bike area.)

N

[Penguin]

Is one of these yours?

250 stolen bikes recovered in raid on Clapton underworld workshop

 

"Hackney had the second highest rate of bike thefts in London last year, after Westminster, with 1,557 cycles stolen.

Sergeant Louise Gill has arranged a series of open days at Hackney police station to trace bike owners. The next is on Wednesday from midday until 8pm. Cyclists must bring a proof of purchase and an identifying photograph, and call 020 8721 2836 beforehand to book an officer for the viewing."

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/is-one-of-these-yours-250-stolen-bikes-recovered-in-raid-on-clapton-underworld-workshop-8594262.html

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/is-one-of-these-yours-250-stolen-bikes-recovered-in-raid-on-clapton-underworld-workshop-8594262.html

[tom]

time for photoshop and a receipt printer...

[Ten Yen]

Heya,

I met a very vocal and active local cycle campaigning friend on Sunday
(also nearly attended: http://www.towerhamletswheelers.org.uk/workshop
on saturday)

and by-the-by mentioned the hackspace bike parking situation, which led
them to mail me. Hopefully I haven't been too forward in acting
"on behalf" of the space via the mail below.

werd,

----- Forwarded message -----

Heya,

X Gerry M [2013-05-19 10:23] :
> If you send me contact details of the Hub (?) I'll forward to R- M- with recommendation that cyle parking is put in. More is needed near there anyway for the delivery office queues; that has been a past THW list topic and I think T- got on the case hence the odd Sheffield stand.

thank-you!

The London hackspace:
http://london.hackspace.org.uk/
is at 447 Hackney Road. although the everyday entrance is via the
yard in Emma St.

there are some sheffield stands next to the Delivery office: but one
has been bent to quite a jaunty angle, and they are out of the line
of site of the yard, and are quite "isolated" (the space is open to
members 24/7). I haven't yet seen the fence used to capacity, but
there is a worry of component theft/ vandalism through the fence.
(Also I assume the slats are bolted on (from the inside) so may
need "spoiling" (small spot weld?) to prevent unbolting?)

On a recent open day the front entrance, exclusively, was used
and all the posts (even the worringly stubby parking one which could
have had bikes lifted over) were in use, so some "cyclehoops" on the
streetlighting would be great.

I saw this post (15/02/13), about the tfl "free" bike parking for
employers forwarded to the southwark list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/towerhamletswheelers/message/13243
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/22897.aspx

although the hackspace is registered as a company and has over 500
members (automated occupancy graphs from the last space can be seen
here:
http://hack.rs/cacti/graph.php?action=zoom&local_graph_id=35&rra_id=4&view_type=
)

they only "employ" 1 person (an occasional cleaner) and the above
scheme requires a minimum of 5 employees. Also interested in any
statutory requirement for the landlord or council to provide/fund facilities
(monthly rent is 7.5k and business rates 1.8k ukp!) and any discounts
from /recommendations of bike parking hardware providers.
there is a gardening sub-group:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Garden
so some "plantlocks":
http://www.frontyardcompany.co.uk/products/plantlock.html
might be considered.

> I'll have a look soon and hopefully call in.

do. Tuesday evenings are best.

thanks once again and I hope to see you soon,

--
http://tenyen.net/


----- End forwarded message -----

--
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[Si765]

Would this or similar solve the bike storage / security problem.

Http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/storage-container-GRP-Enclosure-/330927600993?pt=UK_BOI_Materials_Supplies_Electrical_ET&hash=item4d0cd27561

[Ndlovu (aka) Dean]

a sure that this would mitigate the bile loss problem (GPS and link to your phone) 

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:57:56 AM UTC+1, Ciarán Mooney wrote:

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

I wouldn't think so. Just means they only need to defeat one lock to get
all bikes within instead of a lock on each individual bike.

Still favour a regular bike stand with a simple cover over it.

[Si765]

I was not suggesting the bikes would not have their own locks.

Si

[Nigel Worsley]

Spotted this on ebay:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221230845914

Currently at £20 for a proper 10 slot bike rack, and in London too.

Finishes at 15:21 today though, so somebody needs to decide quickly if
we want it. Not a bike rider so I am not volunteering!

Nigle

[Jonty Wareing]

The issue with those is that there's really no easy way to lock your frame
to them unless you have a long chain or flexilock, which from previous
discussions generally results in your bike not being there when you return.

--jonty

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