An Ultimatum [was: The webcam discussion returns]

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Russ Garrett

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Aug 11, 2011, 8:55:01 AM8/11/11
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OK, I'm getting fed up with this. There is little contribution on this
thread from the people who are actually concerned about the webcams,
and a lot of echo-chamber strawman arguments from people who aren't.

SO, I propose the following:

1) We make the webcams accessible to members only.
2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide
more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site.
3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed of the
webcams for non-members to look at.
4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time.

*Does anyone object to this? Does anyone think it doesn't go far enough?*

If there are no objections, I will implement it.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Kelly

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:00:06 AM8/11/11
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I approve of this, with one proviso - we should make it clear that people will be taking photos inside; that anyone who doesn't want to be photographed shouldn't be; and that anyone taking photos should make a reasonable effort to check with everyone in the room.

Sam

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

Charles Yarnold

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:02:11 AM8/11/11
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I would object if 3) is not inplace before 1) is implmented.

Sol

M

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:06:15 AM8/11/11
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I don't object.

--
>
++++++++++[>+>+++>++
+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.

Tim Storey

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:09:43 AM8/11/11
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+1 from me

Dave Ingram

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:10:10 AM8/11/11
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+1 from me, with point 3 being implemented soon after. I definitely
think that point 2 is important -- I have no idea what most people are
working on at the space, so it would be good to showcase projects.


D

Catherine Flick

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:46:29 AM8/11/11
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Sounds good to me. I think the focus on the awesome stuff that gets done in 2) would give us far more return than a bunch of webcam streams anyway :) Is there an easy place we can make albums or submit photos or something of projects? (I've done this to my own project page on the wiki, but not anywhere else).

C.

Mark Steward

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:47:49 AM8/11/11
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We have a blog. It's lonely:


Mark

Russ Garrett

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:49:57 AM8/11/11
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On 11 August 2011 14:46, Catherine Flick <lie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds good to me. I think the focus on the awesome stuff that gets done in
> 2) would give us far more return than a bunch of webcam streams anyway :) Is
> there an easy place we can make albums or submit photos or something of
> projects? (I've done this to my own project page on the wiki, but not
> anywhere else).

Photos should go to the Flickr group:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/londonhackspace

If someone wants to volunteer to look after the blog, we can give it
some more exposure.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Sam Kelly

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Aug 11, 2011, 9:57:39 AM8/11/11
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I just took a look, and did a test post, because I hadn't realised it was possible for any of us to post to it. Needs moderator approval, apparently - how many moderators do we have? Is it possible to eliminate that step entirely?

Sam

Martin Dittus

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:12:55 AM8/11/11
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A public form to post is a bit risky.

But let me know if you want to become a moderator and I can give you access, I think -- Elliot set up a notification email list for moderators which would need amending too.

Earthshine

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:19:29 AM8/11/11
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If this puts an end to the idiots that keep blocking/disconnecting/
pissing around with the cameras then I am all for it.

Sam Kelly

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:26:51 AM8/11/11
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Yes please. I do see what you mean about a public form, though I think griefing is unlikely - possibly another option would be to migrate to self-hosted Wordpress or similar, and then anyone who wants one can have a posting account.

Sam

tom

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Aug 11, 2011, 10:51:51 AM8/11/11
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Russ: Option number 2 requires user effort. It'll start off well and
eventually people will hit the CBA wall and it'll die. For example the
last photo posted there was on the 25th of may. Last webcam snapshot
was date.now() - 500



On Aug 11, 3:26 pm, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes please. I do see what you mean about a public form, though I think
> griefing is unlikely - possibly another option would be to migrate to
> self-hosted Wordpress or similar, and then anyone who wants one can have a
> posting account.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Martin Dittus <deks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > A public form to post is a bit risky.
>
> > But let me know if you want to become a moderator and I can give you
> > access, I think -- Elliot set up a notification email list for moderators
> > which would need amending too.
>
> > On 11 Aug 2011, at 14:57, Sam Kelly wrote:
>
> > > I just took a look, and did a test post, because I hadn't realised it was
> > possible for any of us to post to it. Needs moderator approval, apparently -
> > how many moderators do we have? Is it possible to eliminate that step
> > entirely?
>
> > > Sam
>
> > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Mark Steward <markstew...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > We have a blog. It's lonely:
>
> > >  http://blog.london.hackspace.org.uk/
>
> > > Mark
>
> > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Catherine Flick <lie...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Sounds good to me. I think the focus on the awesome stuff that gets done
> > in 2) would give us far more return than a bunch of webcam streams anyway :)
> > Is there an easy place we can make albums or submit photos or something of
> > projects? (I've done this to my own project page on the wiki, but not
> > anywhere else).
>
> > > C.
>
> > > On 11 August 2011 14:10, Dave Ingram <d...@dmi.me.uk> wrote:
> > > On 08/11/11 13:55, Russ Garrett wrote:
> > > > OK, I'm getting fed up with this. There is little contribution on this
> > > > thread from the people who are actually concerned about the webcams,
> > > > and a lot of echo-chamber strawman arguments from people who aren't.
>
> > > > SO, I propose the following:
>
> > > > 1) We make the webcams accessible to members only.
> > > > 2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide
> > > > more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site.
> > > > 3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed of the
> > > > webcams for non-members to look at.
> > > > 4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time.
>
> > > > *Does anyone object to this? Does anyone think it doesn't go far
> > enough?*
>
> > > > If there are no objections, I will implement it.
> > > +1 from me, with point 3 being implemented soon after. I definitely
> > > think that point 2 is important -- I have no idea what most people are
> > > working on at the space, so it would be good to showcase projects.
>
> > > D
>
> > > --
> > > Sam Kelly,http://www.eithin.co.uk/
>
> > > That's it.  We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger
> > dictionary.  -  Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.
>
> --
> Sam Kelly,http://www.eithin.co.uk/

Kal

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Aug 11, 2011, 11:27:33 AM8/11/11
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As ever the optomist Tom.

+1 from me Russ

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 11, 2011, 1:15:15 PM8/11/11
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On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:51 PM, tom <bollo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Russ: Option number 2 requires user effort. It'll start off well and
eventually people will hit the CBA wall and it'll die. For example the
last photo posted there was on the 25th of may. Last webcam snapshot
was date.now() - 500


Incentivise. Any month with 3 or more projects documented, we vote for the 'best'. Parameters of 'best' to be documented and varied from time to time to encourage change. Winner gets free pizza next time they attend on a tuesday. Pizza to be paid from general donations tin. I volunteer an initial fiver.


-adrian

Alex Pounds

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Aug 11, 2011, 1:29:04 PM8/11/11
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On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 02:00:06PM +0100, Sam Kelly wrote:
> I approve of this, with one proviso - we should make it clear that people
> will be taking photos inside; that anyone who doesn't want to be
> photographed shouldn't be; and that anyone taking photos should make a
> reasonable effort to check with everyone in the room.

I think this is a dangerous precedent to set; the Hackspace should not be
a photography-free zone. If you see someone with a camera, ask them nicely
to exclude you from the shot. The onus should not be on a photographer to
ensure that everyone in the photo is A-OK with it. The Hackspace is a
public/semi-public space, after all.

--
Alex Pounds .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

wyan

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Aug 11, 2011, 1:39:28 PM8/11/11
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This sounds reasonable.

Martin Klang

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Aug 11, 2011, 1:40:01 PM8/11/11
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On 11 Aug 2011, at 18:29, Alex Pounds wrote:

> I think this is a dangerous precedent to set;

A dangerous precedent?!
Explain, please!
What dangers are we facing here?

> The onus should not be on a photographer to
> ensure that everyone in the photo is A-OK with it.

Why not? It would seem common courtesy to ask, and to explain what the picture is for.

/m

Monty

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Aug 11, 2011, 1:59:15 PM8/11/11
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On Aug 11, 6:29 pm, Alex Pounds <a...@alexpounds.com> wrote:
> I think this is a dangerous precedent to set; the Hackspace should not be
a photography-free zone.

Straw man. No one suggested making it a photography-free zone.

Katie Sutton

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Aug 11, 2011, 2:27:12 PM8/11/11
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As a photographer, if someone said to me "you have to get permission
from everybody in the room before you take a photograph" I would
think, fuck it, I'm not going to take photos then - effectively making
it a photography-free zone, because I expect I'm not alone in feeling
that way.

--
Katie Sutton
http://tajasel.org

"The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
it." ~ William Gibson

Charles Yarnold

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Aug 11, 2011, 3:29:24 PM8/11/11
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Shouting "any one mind if i take a photo" only takes a moment to do...

M

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Aug 11, 2011, 3:29:19 PM8/11/11
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Good.

--

Monty

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Aug 11, 2011, 3:32:27 PM8/11/11
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On Aug 11, 7:27 pm, Katie Sutton <ka...@tajasel.org> wrote:
> On 11 August 2011 18:59, Monty <monty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 11, 6:29 pm, Alex Pounds <a...@alexpounds.com> wrote:
> >> I think this is a dangerous precedent to set; the Hackspace should not be
> > a photography-free zone.
>
> > Straw man. No one suggested making it a photography-free zone.
>
> As a photographer, if someone said to me "you have to get permission
> from everybody in the room before you take a photograph" I would
> think, fuck it, I'm not going to take photos then - effectively making
> it a photography-free zone, because I expect I'm not alone in feeling
> that way.
>
> --
> Katie Suttonhttp://tajasel.org
>
> "The ‘Net is a waste of time, and that’s exactly what’s right about
> it." ~ William Gibson

I'm an amateur photographer myself and I still seek consent (whether
explicit or implicit) or get model release forms signed where
appropriate, but you know, each to their own.

Adrian Godwin

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Aug 11, 2011, 4:39:28 PM8/11/11
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Surely it depends what you're going to do with the photo ?

Snap with a phone, someone random in back of shot, put it on personal Flickr account : no need to ask.

Photo for main website / newspaper / syndication, ask either before taking or before distribution.

I rarely even carry a phone so I've got no axe to grind, but I find the current obsession with ownership of images - including children - completely bizarre and unnecessary.

-adrian

Monty

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Aug 11, 2011, 4:41:23 PM8/11/11
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"where appropriate"

Russ Garrett

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Aug 11, 2011, 5:05:14 PM8/11/11
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This is bikeshedding of the highest order. Just use common sense and
be aware that some people aren't that keen on having their photo
publicised.

If you've taken a photo which predominantly includes one person, check
with them before using the photo anywhere.

If you're in the space, be aware that it's a semi-public place and you
might be incidentally included in peoples' photos.

Common sense, I hope.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Monty

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Aug 11, 2011, 5:10:43 PM8/11/11
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chris henson

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Aug 12, 2011, 3:56:25 AM8/12/11
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sounds like a compromise

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Russ Garrett

Sent: 08/11/11 01:55 PM

To: london-h...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [london-hack-space] An Ultimatum [was: The webcam discussion returns]


 
OK, I'm getting fed up with this. There is little contribution on this 
thread from the people who are actually concerned about the webcams, 
and a lot of echo-chamber strawman arguments from people who aren't. 

SO, I propose the following: 

1) We make the webcams accessible to members only. 
2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide 
more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site. 
3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed of the 
webcams for non-members to look at. 
4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time. 

*Does anyone object to this? Does anyone think it doesn't go far enough?* 

If there are no objections, I will implement it. 

-- 
Russ Garrett 
ru...@garrett.co.uk

 

HaywardGB

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Aug 12, 2011, 8:39:49 PM8/12/11
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Does it?
>  OK, I'm getting fed up with this. There is little contribution on this thread from the people who are actually concerned about the webcams, and a lot of echo-chamber strawman arguments from people who aren't. SO, I propose the following: 1) We make the webcams accessible to members only. 2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site. 3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed of the webcams for non-members to look at. 4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time. *Does anyone object to this? Does anyone think it doesn't go far enough?* If there are no objections, I will implement it. -- Russ Garrett r...@garrett.co.uk

HaywardGB

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Aug 12, 2011, 9:24:05 PM8/12/11
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Yes it does..

HaywardGB

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Aug 12, 2011, 9:47:01 PM8/12/11
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Then it's agreed..

All non-hackers must die..

Seriously, I'll stop... right ......... now!

Russ Garrett

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Aug 13, 2011, 8:56:09 AM8/13/11
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On 11 August 2011 13:55, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:
> 1) We make the webcams accessible to members only.
> 2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide
> more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site.
> 3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed of the
> webcams for non-members to look at.
> 4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time.

This is done. Webcams are now available at:

http://london.hackspace.org.uk/members/webcams.php

There is an hourly snapshot visible for non-members, and if you log
in, you get the full stream.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Charles Yarnold

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Aug 13, 2011, 9:15:10 AM8/13/11
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Awesome, not that it matters too much but thats what I was hoping for. Thanks for making it happen.

Martin Dittus

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Aug 13, 2011, 11:28:32 AM8/13/11
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Indeed, thanks very much for the fast turnaround. 3 Days from proposal to implementation -- much respect.

m.

Catherine Flick

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Aug 13, 2011, 11:57:57 AM8/13/11
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That sounds like a fantastic compromise. Thanks Russ. :)

danny staple

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Aug 13, 2011, 12:02:30 PM8/13/11
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Yes - kudos. I tried it out - works fine. The non-members image makes
plenty of sense too.

--
Danny Staple

Director, ODM Solutions Ltd
w: http://www.odmsolutions.co.uk
Blog: http://orionrobots.co.uk/blog1-Danny-Staple

M

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Aug 13, 2011, 8:03:47 PM8/13/11
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I'm looking forward to doing hypnosis and making someone do something
embarrassing, to be frozen for an hour. :P

I quite like the solution. Thanks Russ.

--

Tim Storey

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Aug 14, 2011, 8:51:22 AM8/14/11
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On 13/08/2011 16:57, Catherine Flick wrote:
> That sounds like a fantastic compromise. Thanks Russ. :)
>
> On 13 August 2011 16:28, Martin Dittus <dek...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dek...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Indeed, thanks very much for the fast turnaround. 3 Days from
> proposal to implementation -- much respect.
>
> m.
>
>
> On 13 Aug 2011, at 14:15, Charles Yarnold wrote:
>
> > Awesome, not that it matters too much but thats what I was hoping
> for. Thanks for making it happen.
> >
> > On 13 August 2011 13:56, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk
> <mailto:ru...@garrett.co.uk>> wrote:
> > On 11 August 2011 13:55, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk
> <mailto:ru...@garrett.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > 1) We make the webcams accessible to members only.
> > > 2) We encourage people to take more photos of the space, and provide
> > > more emphasis on showing good photos of what we do on the web site.
> > > 3) (optionally) we set up a low-rate, potentially delayed feed
> of the
> > > webcams for non-members to look at.
> > > 4) We come back and review how this has done in two months' time.
> >
> > This is done. Webcams are now available at:
> >
> > http://london.hackspace.org.uk/members/webcams.php
> >
> > There is an hourly snapshot visible for non-members, and if you log
> > in, you get the full stream.
> >
> > --
> > Russ Garrett
> > ru...@garrett.co.uk <mailto:ru...@garrett.co.uk>
> >
>
>
very fast turn around Russ.
superb

t

Gausie

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Aug 14, 2011, 6:29:04 PM8/14/11
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Excellent!

Doorcam is down though. It's the only one people don't mind being on!
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