furnaces being thrown out at Queen Mary University

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Michael Trew

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Aug 30, 2013, 11:31:36 AM8/30/13
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at least 3 furnaces are being thrown out from the Queen Mary workshop in Mile End Road

 

we’d need to collect them from the main QMUL building anytime from 9am on Monday (doesn’t need to be on Monday)

 

they’re all bigger than the Hackspace kiln and I think they’re all different to each other in terms of size and intended function

 

perhaps if any of you furnace experts could come with me to Queen Mary on Monday we can chat to the technicians about what to take?!?

 

we’d also need to arrange transportation

Henry Sands

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Aug 30, 2013, 11:50:03 AM8/30/13
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Do we know the make/model of them and if they're functional? Also if we get these, can we throw away the old blue one?

Michael Trew

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Aug 30, 2013, 12:00:28 PM8/30/13
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I'm sure they're functional but I don't know anything about the
make/model --- we'd need to go there next week to find that out

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Henry Sands <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Do we know the make/model of them and if they're functional? Also if we get
> these, can we throw away the old blue one?
>
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Nigel Worsley

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Aug 30, 2013, 4:35:57 PM8/30/13
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The Reading hackspace has expressed an interest on one of these, if
available. Subject to size of course, if it needs a crane to move it
then it might be a bit too big!

Nigle

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Aug 30, 2013, 7:39:37 PM8/30/13
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A lot of things are bigger than the Hackspace kiln. PC cases, washing
machines, cars, bulldozers, the Earth..

Broadly a proper furnace could be a good thing. If it's of reasonable
size and runs on available utilities. If it's washing machine sized and
runs off gas or electric it'd probably do well. If it's the size of a
van and runs on oil, probably not.

On 30/08/2013 16:31, Michael Trew wrote:
> at least 3 furnaces are being thrown out from the Queen Mary workshop in
> Mile End Road
>
> we�d need to collect them from the main QMUL building anytime from 9am
> on Monday (doesn�t need to be on Monday)
>
> they�re all bigger than the Hackspace kiln and I think they�re all
> different to each other in terms of size and intended function
>
> perhaps if any of you furnace experts could come with me to Queen Mary
> on Monday we can chat to the technicians about what to take?!?
>
> we�d also need to arrange transportation
>
> --
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Liam Lynch

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Aug 31, 2013, 4:55:38 AM8/31/13
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Hi Michael,

Genrally kiln's are quite handy and could release the hackspaces ones to be sold on for funds or donate to other hackspaces. A good size Kiln for pottey and ceramics and a smaller one for the metal work shop would be hand, for tempering. Any chance you could get photos of them and the plates?

Its a bit too short noice to get the time off for Monday.

Liam

Simon Howes

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Aug 31, 2013, 6:27:29 AM8/31/13
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Please don't sell or chuck the kiln I donated.
I'd be happy to see us get a bigger one though, guessing we want electric as gas will be a problem (can't use indoors)

--

Henry Sands

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Aug 31, 2013, 7:36:44 AM8/31/13
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What should we do with it then if we get a larger replacement?

Colin Cooper

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Aug 31, 2013, 7:42:30 AM8/31/13
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There may be a hackspace starting in Colchester.  I imagine they might be interested.


On 31 August 2013 12:36, Henry Sands <hfs...@googlemail.com> wrote:
What should we do with it then if we get a larger replacement?

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Matte

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Aug 31, 2013, 7:46:03 AM8/31/13
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Put the small furnace inside the big furnace, thus creating the worlds first Russian furnace?

Billy

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Aug 31, 2013, 11:39:11 AM8/31/13
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I can be available on Monday.

Shout me with details of when and where.

Philip Roy

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Aug 31, 2013, 6:23:47 PM8/31/13
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As the case is asbestos, if disposed of it needs to be treated as hazardous waste. Some local authorities have a skip for non-industrial asbestos at their waste depot.

Phil

Michael Trew

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Sep 1, 2013, 5:07:51 AM9/1/13
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sorry Liam I don't have any photos --- I'll be at the space early tomorrow (Monday) morning, so perhaps Billy we could go to Queen Mary together to at least investigate what's worth taking?!?

Michael Trew

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Sep 1, 2013, 5:16:27 AM9/1/13
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..here's the address: http://goo.gl/maps/CH0wl , in case it's easier
for us to meet there -- just let me know ;-)
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Ndlovu (aka) Dean

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Sep 1, 2013, 6:20:42 AM9/1/13
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Hi I will be meeting Micheal taking my car to QM and moving the relevant/approriate kit to the Hackspace we should be at the hackspace mid-late morning on Monday 

Mark Steward

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Sep 1, 2013, 7:10:16 AM9/1/13
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Hang on a second - Monday is the recce day. We have no information yet on whether they're worth taking.

Universities generally only give stuff away when it's not worth their while disposing of it. We don't want to take that cost on ourselves unless it's worth it.


Mark


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Nigel Worsley

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Sep 1, 2013, 8:49:38 AM9/1/13
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> Universities generally only give stuff away when it's not worth their while
> disposing of it.

True, but this is the same university that gave us the Staubli robot
arm just because they had lost the cable.

Nigle

Ian Lowe

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Sep 1, 2013, 2:31:48 PM9/1/13
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Hi guys,
            If there are enough going for the Hackspace's needs then I'd be VERY interested in having a look at what ever is left.  I could really use a burn out kiln/heat treating oven for the Forge.  I've got three phase power already and a gas or oil powered furnace wouldn't be an issue for me as its a hot working shop.

Billy, I've a Dr's appointment at about 10.30am Monday so might not be able to make it over when you guys do, would it be cool for you to have a look at whats on offer (after you've cherry picked for the space) in my stead and give me a ring after if there's owt left?

Otherwise I could probably make it over later in the morning or early in the afternoon.  If there's anything worth taking I could probably borrow the Farm van, pick what you guys want up and then drop off what the Hackspace wants first then go on to the Farm.

Let me know if that sounds cool (give me a ring or txt) my numbers 07899780703

as ever

IAN - The Blacksmith

Jasper Wallace

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Sep 1, 2013, 3:03:54 PM9/1/13
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On Sun, 1 Sep 2013, Mark Steward wrote:

> Hang on a second - Monday is the recce day. We have no information yet on whether they're worth taking.
> Universities generally only give stuff away when it's not worth their while disposing of it. We don't want to
> take that cost on ourselves unless it's worth it.

Seconded, it's not as if the existing kiln gets used much! I don't think
it's been used since the fimo incident :(

Please can we be a bit more thoughtful about what we're aquiring for the
space, esp. if it's a large, heavy, hard to dispose of kind of thing.

> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Ndlovu (aka) Dean <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
> Hi I will be meeting Micheal taking my car to QM and moving the relevant/approriate kit to the
> Hackspace we should be at the hackspace mid-late morning on MondayοΏ½
>
> On Friday, 30 August 2013 16:31:36 UTC+1, Michael Trew wrote:
>
> at least 3 furnaces are being thrown out from the Queen Mary workshop in Mile End Road
>
> οΏ½
>
> weοΏ½d need to collect them from the main QMUL building anytime from 9am on Monday
> (doesnοΏ½t need to be on Monday)
>
> οΏ½
>
> theyοΏ½re all bigger than the Hackspace kiln and I think theyοΏ½re all different to each
> other in terms of size and intended function
>
> οΏ½
>
> perhaps if any of you furnace experts could come with me to Queen Mary on Monday we can
> chat to the technicians about what to take?!?
>
> οΏ½
>
> weοΏ½d also need to arrange transportation
>
> --
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--
[http://pointless.net/] [0x2ECA0975]

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Sep 1, 2013, 7:20:43 PM9/1/13
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I suspect by being part of machinery it would be considered industrial.

Billy

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Sep 2, 2013, 2:39:24 AM9/2/13
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I'd vote to keep the small furnace. It's functional enough, and the asbestos is sealed in. It does need someone who understands PID programming to look at it. Maybe a project for someone from the NJA group...

It also has a different range of uses to the big furnaces we're being offered.

The size and power of the furnaces will defines the running costs.

With the small one it wasn't a problem, think it's around 5-7 kW/hours. With the larger furnaces, it will be an issue. (If they are 3-phase, it will definitely be an issue. I've seen the power bills from a 3-phase potter's kiln in south London.)

Means that using them efficiently, would require a full load each time.

Set up a scheduling system for furnace runs, and we'll get the most effective use from them.

SamLR

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Sep 2, 2013, 4:59:20 AM9/2/13
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As some people seem to have missed it:

The small kiln is not the space's it's owned by AbbyKat. 

S

pad...@padski.co.uk

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Sep 2, 2013, 5:59:14 AM9/2/13
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Also, and in reply to an earlier post about how little use it gets:
It would get a lot more if it was slightly bigger, slightly hotter, or reported its temperature accurately. The last of these would probably have prevented the 'fimo incident'.
I think we should definitely consider a replacement if a suitable one is offered.
Paddy

Sent from my thing.


----- Reply message -----
From: "SamLR" <sam.lind...@gmail.com>
To: "Hackspace Mailing List" <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [london-hack-space] Re: furnaces being thrown out at Queen Mary University
Date: Mon, Sep 2, 2013 09:59


As some people seem to have missed it:

The small kiln is not the space's it's owned by AbbyKat. 

S
On 2 September 2013 07:39, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:

I'd vote to keep the small furnace. It's functional enough, and the asbestos is sealed in. It does need someone who understands PID programming to look at it. Maybe a project for someone from the NJA group...

It also has a different range of uses to the big furnaces we're being offered.

The size and power of the furnaces will defines the running costs.

With the small one it wasn't a problem, think it's around 5-7 kW/hours. With the larger furnaces, it will be an issue. (If they are 3-phase, it will definitely be an issue. I've seen the power bills from a 3-phase potter's kiln in south London.)

Means that using them efficiently, would require a full load each time.

Set up a scheduling system for furnace runs, and we'll get the most effective use from them.




On Monday, September 2, 2013 12:20:43 AM UTC+1, Sci wrote:
I suspect by being part of machinery it would be considered industrial.

On 31/08/2013 23:23, Philip Roy wrote:
> As the case is asbestos, if disposed of it needs to be treated as
> hazardous waste. Some local authorities have a skip for non-industrial
> asbestos at their waste depot.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 16:50:03 +0100, Henry Sands <hfs....@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>     Do we know the make/model of them and if they're functional? Also if
>     we get these, can we throw away the old blue one?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "London Hackspace" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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Simon Howes

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Sep 2, 2013, 6:36:07 AM9/2/13
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Billy,

I think you're correct re the running costs of larger kilns. Big drill, small drill, choose what's best for the job :)

Paddy: the pid controller is a bit annoying in that it only goes to 400c when you select a k type temperature controller.

Haskspace peeps: does anyone have a non K type thermocouple lying around that does 1000c? can has? It should be a simple job of swapping the probe and selecting a new thermouple type in the pid options.

Mark Steward

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Sep 2, 2013, 11:35:33 AM9/2/13
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So, how did the visit go? Are any of them capable of upgrading (in efficiency/power/lack of asbestos) the current kiln?


Mark

Billy

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Sep 2, 2013, 5:02:33 PM9/2/13
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Ok, apologies time.

I didn't realise that it was just supposed to be an inspection visit.

When i got to the hackspace this morning, there was a new kiln sitting on the loading bay. I thought that things had all been sorted out, so we picked  up the rest of them and brought them to the hackspace. :))

There were four Carbolite Air recirculating furnaces, http://www.carbolite.com/products.asp?id=2&doc=166 and an older model of a Lenton Thermal Design furnace. I'm googling for the manuals.

Ian took one of the Carbolite furnaces to the Stepney Farm forge, and if we don't want them, he's willing to take the others.

The other three Carbolite furnaces need testing, as one of them is supposed to be "a little twitchy" with respect to the temperature gradients. Though the usual failure modes are either the PID's or the elements. Either way, if we can't find replacements,  we can cannibilise it for parts.

Nigle, could you contact the people from Reading hackspace and find out when we can arrange for them to pick it up?

The Carbolite furnace's, have a maximum temperature of 750 degrees C, which is more than is needed for aluminium.

I'd like us to keep one of the Carbolite furnaces.

The Lenton goes up to 1400 degrees C, though it only has an internal box size of 200 by 110 by 140mm. So it can hold crucibles of a different size to Abby's kiln..We could cast copper and bronze with this... :D

Peter "Sci" Turpin

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Sep 2, 2013, 5:43:04 PM9/2/13
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Oooh, they have shelves??

The Carbolites max out at the minimum temperature for enamel work, but
the Lenton passes the upper limit.

One of each sounds good given the specs, if there's space for them.
Though I would ask that we look into ways of ensuring "dirty" casting
doesn't foul up the insides for work needing a cleaner environment like
aforementioned enameling or glasing. Perhaps a catch-tray for when doing
crucible work? Particularly if using dirty recycled metals likely to put
off vapour residues.
> On Sep 2, 2013 9:58 AM, "pad...@padski.co.uk <javascript:>"
> <pad...@padski.co.uk <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> Also, and in reply to an earlier post about how little use
> it gets:
> It would get a lot more if it was slightly bigger, slightly
> hotter, or reported its temperature accurately. The last of
> these would probably have prevented the 'fimo incident'.
> I think we should definitely consider a replacement if a
> suitable one is offered.
> Paddy
>
> Sent from my thing.
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "SamLR" <sam.lind...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> To: "Hackspace Mailing List" <london-h...@googlegroups.com
> <javascript:>>
> Subject: [london-hack-space] Re: furnaces being thrown out
> at Queen Mary University
> Date: Mon, Sep 2, 2013 09:59
>
>
> As some people seem to have missed it:
>
> The small kiln is not the space's it's owned by AbbyKat.
>
> S
>
>
> On 2 September 2013 07:39, Billy
> > an email to london-hack-sp...@__googlegroups.com..
> > For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/__groups/opt_out
> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.
>
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Mark Steward

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Sep 2, 2013, 6:07:38 PM9/2/13
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Cool, it definitely sounds like a Carbolite could replace the current kiln then.

How much demand is there for the 1400 degree furnace? I get the impression people generally manage with softer metals, but is there stuff this would draw people in for, that can't be easily done in the yard?


Mark

Billy

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Sep 2, 2013, 6:49:35 PM9/2/13
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Yes, copper is 1080-ish and bronze is around 950.

Iron is 1150.

The Corbalite maxes out at 750. Abby's kiln maxed out around 950-1000 (and the temperature gauge wasn't that accurate at 900+)

The Lenton would give us a better range of materials to play with.

That said, if we don't want it, Ian will happily have it.

I'd like to experiment with bronze casting though.

Steampunk reprap. :D

SamLR

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Sep 2, 2013, 7:13:13 PM9/2/13
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When I have time* I'd love to do some more casting; I was getting pretty good using Al in Abby's but haven't had a chance to do anything** recently. 

More practically do we have power consumption info on these (as well as warm up times?) Given the look of the carbolite it might even be more efficient than Abbys (as it has what looks like a proper sealing door rather that a slide block).

Also how large are these and is Abby happy to take his home as it looks like it's been fairly effectively replaced?

S

*HA!
**like leaving the house...

Nigel Worsley

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Sep 2, 2013, 7:40:44 PM9/2/13
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> Ok, apologies time.
> I didn't realise that it was just supposed to be an inspection visit.

I would be amazed if that turns out to be a problem!

> Nigle, could you contact the people from Reading hackspace and find out when
> we can arrange for them to pick it up?

It will probably be picked up by me, subject to size and weight. These
are the 22 litre versions presumably?

Nigle

Philip Roy

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Sep 3, 2013, 9:50:33 PM9/3/13
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Sorry, what I meant was non-commercial. i.e. if you rock up to the council
site with a small amount of the stuff and you are a resident of the
borough then it will be treated as private waste. This only applies to
cementitious asbestos, not AIB or lagging. The kiln is made of asbestos
cement sheet and is easily small enough to be treated as a private
disposal. Just don`t tell them it`s not yours :) They usually want it
double bagged in thick polythene too.

Anyway, as Simon does not wish to have it thrown out then it`s sort of an
academic point.

Phil

Ndlovu (aka) Dean

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Sep 4, 2013, 2:13:02 AM9/4/13
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the hotter kiln would be good for me I have done a fair bit of gold which melts at 1083 and is genrally done in smaller quantities ;-(

On Friday, 30 August 2013 16:31:36 UTC+1, Michael Trew wrote:

at least 3 furnaces are being thrown out from the Queen Mary workshop in Mile End Road

 

we’d need to collect them from the main QMUL building anytime from 9am on Monday (doesn’t need to be on Monday)

 

they’re all bigger than the Hackspace kiln and I think they’re all different to each other in terms of size and intended function

 

perhaps if any of you furnace experts could come with me to Queen Mary on Monday we can chat to the technicians about what to take?!?

 

we’d also need to arrange transportation

Billy

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Sep 4, 2013, 4:13:04 AM9/4/13
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I'd like it too... :))

I've tested their functionality. The Lenton Thermal Design and one of the Carbolite's works as is.

The other two Carbolite's need new thermocouples, before i can check the functionality of the microcontrollers.

We fixed the loose wiring and the knackered power leads, so that side of things checks out ok..
.
There are three boxes of spares at QMC, and Vince said he'd check out whether they were going as well. Could you shout Mark and get in touch with him?

Or we need a couple of new thermocouples.

I'll report more when i've worked out which Eurotherm microcontroller they use.

Liam Lynch

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Sep 5, 2013, 7:05:51 AM9/5/13
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Hi All,

I gave a chap called Joe Bradwell from Carbolite UK 01433 620011 a call and asked the asbestos question to him.

He stated that without the serial numbers he can not confim anything.

However he did say it was most likely they ceramic fiber insulation.

If someone could checkout the serial numbers and the models of the units and email them to:-

Joseph....@carbolite.com

He will look them up for use and either confirm or deny.

I mentioned I was from the Hackspace, he is expecting an email or a call. So just do a line or two explaining the coniniuation of the conversation and that shoudl get us a result

Please CC me in on the email Li...@Dvrepairs.com

or else post the serial numbers and I'll ring him back as soon as I can

Liam Lynch

Wren Montgomery

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Sep 5, 2013, 12:43:12 PM9/5/13
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If it's a Eurotherm 902P/903P/904P  (square job with 6 buttons accross bottom), I have the manuafacturer manuals and the manual Lenton & Carbolite send out, which is considerably easier to understand.

Wren


--

Billy

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Sep 5, 2013, 6:38:07 PM9/5/13
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Great work. :D


The Lenton furnace has the serial number  2178

    The Eurotherm dial is model number 610553 with serial number 106-028-5-028-19-53-00

    The Eurotherm micro-controller is model number 612-070-005-619-12-112-00 with serial number 611554-003-009-07-86

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Carbolite furnaces, have the serial numbers, 2-83-90, 2-83-96, and 2-83-92

    The Eurotherm dial is model number 682858 with serial number 106-028-5-026-19-00

    The Eurotherm micro-controller is model number 610-047-001-005-618-13-0-0-00 with serial number 667270-1-5-3-93

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liam Lynch

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Sep 8, 2013, 9:22:10 AM9/8/13
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Thanks Billy,

I have emailed off those details and am awaiting a reply.

Liam

Liam Lynch

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Sep 9, 2013, 10:34:01 AM9/9/13
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Hi All,

Just to confirm what I believe we already know the Carbolite furnaces have ceramic insulation.

For completeness here is the reply I got from Joesph 
_____________________________________________________________________________________


Hi Liam,

I can confirm the furnaces do not contain asbestos as Carbolite stopped using asbestos in 1974. The furnaces do however contain ceramic fibre insulation, please see below our advice for disposal below;

The furnaces should be wrapped in an imperious membrane (Cling film or similar). Once the insulation materials have been adequately wrapped I recommend you contact your local council who should put you in touch with the appropriate people for disposal of the insulation materials (in this case a complete furnace).

Ceramic fibre insulation, once used is classified as “Special waste” and then when taken above 900°C it should be treated as “Hazardous waste”. 

I hope the above information helps.

Kind Regards
Joseph Bradwell
Service Administrator
Just to confirm what I belive we already know the Carvolite furnaces have ceramic insulation.

For completeness here is the preply I got from Joeseph 

Mark Steward

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Sep 9, 2013, 10:36:29 AM9/9/13
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Thanks, that also confirms that we want people to take these off our hands, rather than having to arrange disposal ourselves.


Mark



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Billy

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Sep 12, 2013, 11:41:57 AM9/12/13
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Did he mention anything about the manuals? I've tried digging round the tech-support parts of their website, but couldn't find the manuals for the older models of furnace.

Same for the Euroetherm website.

Any thoughts?

Liam Lynch

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Sep 12, 2013, 1:11:04 PM9/12/13
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Hi Billy,

Joseph seemed ammicable enough. A polite email might be a good start.

Regards

Liam

Mark Steward

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Sep 23, 2013, 7:08:21 PM9/23/13
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Did anyone follow up on this? I've done a bit of searching this evening, and found a scanned manual[1] which seems to be a slightly later model. It includes a wiring diagram and some maintenance instructions.

Our furnaces are from 1990-1996, use a Eurotherm 610 controller with 106 over-temperature cutout and are labelled HRF1. I assume this is Carbolite's first horizontal recirculating furnace, introduced at latest in 1987.

The manual I found describes a newer (but still pre-1990) 810 controller and refers to the HRF 7/22, whose internal dimensions and rating match ours. They still make a furnace designated HRF 7/22, although it seems that around 2003 they switched to their own controller, rewrote the manual, and only then added it to their website.

I've also put the Eurotherm 810 manual on the wiki[2].


Mark





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Ryan

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Sep 26, 2013, 6:15:26 PM9/26/13
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We're still interested, just need to know who to get in touch with to sort out pickup!

Let me know, and we'll organize something.

On Friday, 30 August 2013 21:35:57 UTC+1, Nigel Worsley wrote:
The Reading hackspace has expressed an interest on one of these, if
available. Subject to size of course, if it needs a crane to move it
then it might be a bit too big!

Nigle

Jasper Wallace

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Oct 18, 2013, 3:32:20 PM10/18/13
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On Thu, 26 Sep 2013, Ryan wrote:

> We're still interested, just need to know who to get in touch with to sort out pickup!
>
> Let me know, and we'll organize something.

Bump. can whoever is dealing with this please sort it out!

> On Friday, 30 August 2013 21:35:57 UTC+1, Nigel Worsley wrote:
> The Reading hackspace has expressed an interest on one of these, if
> available. Subject to size of course, if it needs a crane to move it
> then it might be a bit too big!
>
> Nigle
>
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