Response to ultimatum in "Laser cutter out of order" thread

[deanforbes]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/nIO8aMcdkIc/IwbSqttAAwAJ

[deanforbes]

Russ I have seen your post on the list and read it as an ultimatum (not sure if it is meant as such) I could have a fairly robust response but question the benefit of escalating this further, I tried to call when I was called to be told you had posted – I would prefer to chat before posting – the irony is that I am in the process of withdrawing from the space anyway – I would be keen for a chat before the next step my number is 07906948725 I plan to sleep on this anyway before responding

 

 

My View / Planned Response

 

Russ

 

I am not sure how to respond to this ultimatum, the facts are the grievance procedure is little more than a political or kangaroo court, statements like the one you have made in this thread will inhibit members coming forward to have their say as I am sure you know.

 

Why did I post … well the abusive IRC post, I personally I don’t accept that it is satire, or Pub/Fireside chat it would not be tolerated in any other pub or other community I have been part of.

 

I have never sowed discontent but I have voiced a view which is held by many members I have no issue with Charles as I don’t know him as a person but I do with his behaviour around the laser cutter and a fair and even playing field. I see this attack on me as simply shooting the messenger.

 

Russ as I expect you will recall at a monthly meeting at the beginning of the year shortly after the EGM where several general members were present there was a discussion and consensus that to paraphrase “Charles fiefdom around the laser cutter needs to be addressed” You committed to addressing this with Charles and to bringing in new maintainers starting with Andy Tidman, You also asked that Mark Stewart not minute this aspect of the meeting to enable you time to address these issues. – this in its self demonstrates that you are aware of the view of members that Charles uses his position with regard to the laser cutter as a power base as you agreed to address it, I am not sure if there is a register of attendees but I know Andy, Ariel both have the same recollection as Iam sure yu and others do.

 

Charles attitude to finances was underscored at the EGM where it became clear he only paid sporadically and was only able to stand due to being in the grace period this was as a result of your response to questions from the audience . Limiting the number of maintainer's and charging for training on a machine is using the machine for financial gain at a basic level and this on its own is enough to warrant a claim of “personal revenue” it is not what but how this is done that is significant as I am sure you know.

 

In addition to this Andy Tidman has shared with me that he has witnessed Charles coming in putting the laser in service to do a job and then put it back out of service once he was done and then left it out of service, there is anecdotal evidence of other witnessing similar events.

 

That Charles chooses to respond on the list as a “victim”, was a founder member or has a following does not change the facts which you have in the past been aware of and I believe agreed to address

 

There has been a fair bit of armchair lawyering with claims of libel and defamation well I don’t agree and rather than blowing off steam look forward to legal action.

 

Shutting down a thread to censor members legitimate concerns is not a move in the interest of the community, I feel this action speaks for its self

 

 

[15:44:24] <YetiFiasco> We can fix the laser

[15:44:34] <YetiFiasco> But I'm enjioying it in its broken state

[15:44:45] <YetiFiasco> Its like a postmodern art installation

[15:44:52] <YetiFiasco> I think I'll call it

[15:44:59] <YetiFiasco> "Frustration"

[15:45:14] <tomwyatt> so do we actually have any maintainers atm?

[15:45:17] <oni> "entitlement"

[15:45:56] <YetiFiasco> Its interactive too

[15:46:08] <YetiFiasco> You can stand next to it and join the experience

[15:46:28] <oni> I think you need an arts council grant

[15:46:39] <YetiFiasco> Think I'd get it?

[15:47:40] <YetiFiasco> Someone got it for covering themselves in menstrual blood, so I imagine anythings possible.

[15:47:44] <oni> with enough flowery bollocks yeah

[15:48:37] <YetiFiasco> I could tell them its primary purpose is to piss off art students

[15:48:44] <YetiFiasco> Theyd love thay

[16:05:01] <-> MajorTennis is now known as Tennis

[16:21:27] <velyks> whats this in relation to?

[16:28:11] <KaiserPro> Naa, the only way you'll get cash is if you make a really bad laser cut trinket

[16:50:04] <Cadmus> Super quiet today, everyone on holiday?

[16:50:35] <detonate> We're talking heaps in #NoCadmus

[16:53:36] <tomwyatt> irc cabal channel is buzzing

[16:56:45] <-> CyberJacob is now known as zz_CyberJacob

[17:00:15] <detonate> ssshhh

[17:02:47] <JamesHarrison> ?complain irc cabal

[17:02:57] <JamesHarrison> ?complain cabal

[17:03:01] <JamesHarrison> :(

[17:03:24] <-> booyaa is now known as robon0ught

[17:03:42] <robon0ught> tomwyatt is currrently the chief cabalist

[17:03:44] <-> robon0ught is now known as booyaa

[17:07:54] <cab0lt> ?help

[17:07:55] <tomwyatt> in your face shadowy members of our illustrious cult!

[17:08:05] <cab0lt> hmm, robonaut seems to need a kick

[17:09:12] <detonate> in the balls

[17:12:09] <Cadmus> ?pub

[17:12:14] <detonate> keen

[17:12:15] <Cadmus> :'(

[17:14:47] <-> booyaa is now known as robon0ught

[17:15:02] <robon0ught> cab0lt: if you need to ask you're not part of the cabal

 

On Friday, 22 July 2016 12:51:10 UTC+1, deanforbes wrote:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/nIO8aMcdkIc/IwbSqttAAwAJ

[Russ Garrett]

Firstly, as I'm sure you and everyone else on this mailing list is
aware, I'm extremely busy with organising EMF full-time at the moment
(for which I will note I don't get paid) and I have had to make time
for this issue over the last few days. This has not improved my blood
pressure.

I have been working irregular hours and your phone call on Thursday
morning, to my phone number which is marked on the wiki as
"emergencies only", woke me up as I had been working late. I didn't
answer as I didn't recognise your number.

I agree that many people in that thread were out of order, and that
the bad jokes did not help matters at all.

I also think that the Hackspace cannot operate if members don't assume
good faith, and there has been a massive deficit of that.

There have been actions that I promised to do and have not had time to
organise due to my EMF commitments, as well as my duties as treasurer
(which alone probably consume 4-5 hours per month). I hope to sort as
many of these out as possible before I stand down as trustee this
autumn.

I will recommend that the trustees produce a short policy to describe
how tool maintainers should operate.

I don't anticipate that I will have time to respond further after this email.

On 22 July 2016 at 12:51, deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
> Russ as I expect you will recall at a monthly meeting at the beginning of
> the year shortly after the EGM where several general members were present
> there was a discussion and consensus that to paraphrase “Charles fiefdom
> around the laser cutter needs to be addressed” You committed to addressing
> this with Charles and to bringing in new maintainers starting with Andy
> Tidman, You also asked that Mark Stewart not minute this aspect of the
> meeting to enable you time to address these issues. – this in its self
> demonstrates that you are aware of the view of members that Charles uses his
> position with regard to the laser cutter as a power base as you agreed to
> address it, I am not sure if there is a register of attendees but I know
> Andy, Ariel both have the same recollection as Iam sure yu and others do.

The minutes of that meeting are available here, and the specific
discussion is in point 4:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Monthly_Meeting_28-01-16

I cannot recall what, if anything, was not minuted, but I reject the
implication that I agreed with any accusation that Charles is using
the laser cutter for his personal gain.

I think my email yesterday fairly accurately mirrors what I said in
that meeting.

> Charles attitude to finances was underscored at the EGM where it became
> clear he only paid sporadically and was only able to stand due to being in
> the grace period this was as a result of your response to questions from the
> audience .

It is for Charles to respond to this allegation, not me. As a Trustee
I do not comment on members' financial matters without that member's
permission. I will again confirm that Charles was a valid member under
the terms of the constitution, and entitled to stand in the election.

> In addition to this Andy Tidman has shared with me that he has witnessed
> Charles coming in putting the laser in service to do a job and then put it
> back out of service once he was done and then left it out of service, there
> is anecdotal evidence of other witnessing similar events.

This is the first I have heard of these allegations and they have not
been reported to the trustees, and Charles has not been given a chance
to respond to them.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Adrian Godwin]

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

> In addition to this Andy Tidman has shared with me that he has witnessed
> Charles coming in putting the laser in service to do a job and then put it
> back out of service once he was done and then left it out of service, there
> is anecdotal evidence of other witnessing similar events.

This is the first I have heard of these allegations and they have not
been reported to the trustees, and Charles has not been given a chance
to respond to them.

I don't see a problem with this. There are many occasions when a machine can be used, carefully and with respect for its condition, by someone familiar with it yet cannot be left available for random users. Indeed, this applies to all the equipment in the hackspace which is not yet commissioned for general use.

[Samb1]

Just thought I'd point out that it was myself that closed off the previous thread. Not for the purpose of censorship of your or anyone else's views as these have already been made well known.

The reason as mentioned at the end of that thread was due to the negativity these kinds of confrontations tend to produce on the mailing list.

Also, the maintainers are volunteers who give their own time and effort to do (I will tend to assume) their best to keep a piece of kit running. 

So I feel it's unfair to publicly berate them regardless of your opinion of their standard of service. I will also, in good faith, give maintainers the benefit of the doubt that their decisions are in the best interest of the kit they maintain, as I'm sure you're aware.

It seems intuitive that were there to be any new maintainers that they would need to be able to work with current maintainers. Publicly arguing with current maintainers is probably a bad sign IMO.

The minutes from the meeting linked to by russ are quite interesting and a great reminder, especially point 1 in the current context. I'm aiming to reduce the general level of toxicity on here and so will be trying to help with moderation from here on.

What's needed is a presentation of ideas not accusations.

I do think we should keep the monthly meetings going as it's a much better format for these organisational issues. It will probably be quiet for a while due to EMF and summer but I'm happy to arrange and chair one if no one else wants to.

[Charles Yarnold]

On 22 July 2016 at 12:51, deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:

Charles attitude to finances was underscored at the EGM where it became clear he only paid sporadically and was only able to stand due to being in the grace period this was as a result of your response to questions from the audience . Limiting the number of maintainer's and charging for training on a machine is using the machine for financial gain at a basic level and this on its own is enough to warrant a claim of “personal revenue” it is not what but how this is done that is significant as I am sure you know.

It is correct that my payments have been sporadic, but it is an interesting narrative you are spinning here. My payments have been both a few days late on the month and a few days early, I don't use direct debits on my account or standing orders due to getting hit with fees in the past. My payments to the space are manual and much like with automated payments when we hit long weekends they can fall not directly on every 30 days.

What I can say for sure is that if you take all my payments over the course of the whole time this hackspace has existed and divided it up by that time, the number comes out to way more than the minimum amount.

I again say that my I have never spoken of my payment history outside of the trustees channel, how odd that Tom Hodder would hear about it and start emailing people moments after you accessed my personal records on the admin system.

Yes you are technically correct that the fact that there is a charge for training for the for the lasercutter and by doing training I obtain personal revenue.

What your narrative leaves out however is that, during the time I was the sole maintainer of the lasercutter there was never a charge. I opposed the charge several times when it was brought up. Henry ultimately took the decision to bring in the charge after the 3d printers did this, I agreed to let him take the lead and see how it panned out. Since the charge was brought in we have seen an up tick in those actually attending sessions as well as a perceived quality in those attending as they are more invested in the training due to payment.

Along with this Henry has taken far more training session than me this year, so to single myself out for this rather than any other trainer for any other tool who is taking more payments than me shows your obvious personal attacks.

Given the above and that I still feel odd taking payments at the end of a session I think you are far out of line.

 

In addition to this Andy Tidman has shared with me that he has witnessed Charles coming in putting the laser in service to do a job and then put it back out of service once he was done and then left it out of service, there is anecdotal evidence of other witnessing similar events.

I may well have done this, I don't know the situation in question. It could have been the explanation given by artag but I think its more likely that when I am performing maintenance on machines and I have something I want to cut, I might cut this rather than just drawing a random shape on the screen. This gives a real world example to work with and doesn't end up wasting materials.

Given you are trying to warp this to be an abuse of power, yet again shows your attempts to set up a narrative to attempt to personally attack me.

For all the above reasons and for all the people, both friends, those I don't always get along with as well as people I have yet to meet in the hackspace, contacting me with support and condolences on the way you try to attack and hound me in the name of fairness and speaking yourself for "the silent majority" I will be making a formal complaint to the trustees (and removing myself from the proceedings) as its now enough is enough, I won't be bullied any longer for loving this place and trying to improve it.

[David Murphy]

>"Russ as I expect you will recall at a monthly meeting at the beginning of the year shortly after the EGM where several general members were present there was a discussion and consensus that to

>paraphrase “Charles fiefdom around the laser cutter needs to be addressed” You committed to addressing this with Charles and to bringing in new maintainers starting with Andy Tidman, You also asked

>that Mark Stewart not minute this aspect of the meeting to enable you time to address these issues. – this in its self demonstrates that you are aware of the view of members that Charles uses his

>position with regard to the laser cutter as a power base as you agreed to address it, I am not sure if there is a register of attendees but I know Andy, Ariel both have the same recollection as Iam sure yu

>and others do."

Which monthly meeting was this? I was at the couple after the EGM and I have no memory of anything like this. I'm curious which meeting this was and whether anyone else remembers.

>In addition to this Andy Tidman has shared with me that he has witnessed Charles coming in putting the laser in service to do a job and then put it back out of service once he was done and then left it out

>of service, there is anecdotal evidence of other witnessing similar events.

It seems likely that a casual observer would have great trouble distinguishing a test run to see if a fix has worked from a job and even if they're right the machine might be out of order for something very specific which ordinary users couldn't be trusted to avoid while a maintainer might not.

For example a while back I remember a specific fault where they they couldn't leave the machine up when something went wrong with the hinge that could allow a user to open it while it was running: too likely someone would end up blind but a maintainer could be reasonable trusted to run something while being ultra careful about when to open it.

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[deanforbes]

Russ

You are a board member and have responsibilities, I called during normal working hours and have spoken to you on your phone previously when you have answered in the past, you personally gave me your mobile I did not see it on the wiki,  you made the time to issues an ultimatum which is interesting, if you now say you are busy that's fine 

In my view it is a fact you asked for the discussion about Charles not be minuted - the minutes weren't circulated to me at the time so won't know if they have been amended but that is irrelevant. they would not reflect what was said due to your request , Two witness I spoke to and named confirm my recollection. I have no doubt that some people will have selective amnesia. 

In my view it is a fact you referred  to Charles at the monthly meeting as being territorial and responsible for the problems around that time and agreed to take these up with Charles at the time, there were similar statements at the time to the one made by Andy now - it's nothing new., 

I heard today of similar behaviour to Charles by Henry which I was not aware of however untill this afternoon, I am not sure that the person reporting this wants to subject himself to the same treatment as me and will leave it to him to come forward  (this behaviour is toxic destructive and infectious) this dovetails with your statement  "I also think that the Hackspace cannot operate if members don't assume good faith, and there has been a massive deficit of that." I would agree with this however I would point out that this is a case of members mirroring some trustees and selected member behaviour (and being protected while doing so) - the comment in the previous thread about 3 types of members is not mine despite being attributed to me, but I have to say it is precisely what I see.

The people making these claim at that time of the members meeting have now left or are not comfortable doing so to the trustees due to the state of the grievance procedure and that it does not have any oversight , or have now left the London Hackspace, The issues are the same issues that have prevailed for some time 

abuse is not a bad joke it is abuse plain and simple no matter how you try to dress it up 

 

Have a good festival 

[Henry Sands]

Me using the laser cutter when it's broken is a flat out lie, I have never done anything except test cutting while the cutter is out of order. I have no idea where you're getting this nonsense from.

[deanforbes]

Henry ... similar not the same 

[Henry Sands]

Ok, let me clarify, I have never done anything untoward with th laser cutter, when it was in a broken state or not.

[deanforbes]

Charles regarding financial conduct the details are in EGM minutes I expect the details are Tom Hodder asked me a question, I referred him to Russ who as I understand it answered him, It really is quite simple 

[deanforbes]

Charles regarding financial conduct the details I expect are in the EGM recording/minutes. For the recoletion is Tom Hodder asked me a question, I referred him to Russ who as I understand it answered him, It really is quite simple! 

[Charles Yarnold]

Yet you don't deny accessing my personal records from your admin account moments before this happened, how telling.

--

[Tim Reynolds]

I find it amazing that someone who is on their last warning before a ban
for "Repeated CoC violations in the space and on the mailing list,
removing HS equipment against rule 13." getting upset about how other
maintain equipment and behave. You're quite the opposite of an authority
on at least one of those.

I've known you to mention "necklacing" in the hackspace - is that to be
taken at face value the same as the IRC jokes you've quoted? For those
unaware, necklacing is the act of restraining someone, placing a car
tyre around their neck, filling it with petrol and then lighting it.

That was just a joke though, right? Just hyperbole? Not like all the
complete factual and straight faced comments on the IRC channel.

You've been removed as a trustee by popular vote and are on the verge of
being banned. You've stated in this thread you're in the process of
withdrawing - please just go quietly into the night and leave us to our
toxic little hellhole. Please.

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[Eugene Nadyrshin]

Dean, what the hell,

No, it's not the board members' responsibility to pick up calls from you. If you have something to say put it in writing,     to   the   board.

For someone who was shouting at the EGM about providing evidence of your wrong doing, you keep relying on hearsay and rumour when accusing Charles and Henry.

Your claims about the trustees protecting anyone are rubbish. Except, in my opinion, in some cases where the trustees did not take complaints against you seriously enough.

The updated hackspace grievance procedure proposal that was put together primarily by Russ (supplemented by a few members) was then hastily rewritten by you to make it the "Dean's grievance procedure" effectively killing the proposal.

Yes, a lot of people have left the hackspace as a result of your toxic behavior, I've had people whom I have never met before ask me if I can watch over them when in the space because they are terrified of you!

If the next email from you is anything other than an apology to Russ, I'll put you on moderation. Don't like it? Feel free to call for an EGM and vote to remove me as a director.

I've had enough if this!

Evgeny Nadyrshin

Trustee of the London HackSpace

On 22 July 2016 at 21:35, deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:

--

[deanforbes]

Eugene historically people have moved on due to the nature of the so-called grievance procedure, what we currently have is a history of playing the man and not the ball (that does not mean it's always wrong but it does mean it is always the wrong way)  I am yet to see any proposal that has any separation of duties or oversight,  given this, it is not a surprise that many people won't take a stand, I ponder if this is deliberate and off course the privileged class will support anything that entrenches their privilege 

You view of me is well know however your actions, statements and nickname of power mouse say a lot for your conduct . I was asked by a member just this evening if he could start a petition in support of me - gee I must be really bad 

re phone call I was slated for calling early, I called at a reasonable time  and Russ has my number simple as no need to go off on a tangent 

[deanforbes]

I've really said all I am going to now 

[deanforbes]

as a trustee who is asked a question about a person's membership status I am entitled to look at your membership status - that is above board

over and out 

[Charles Yarnold]

So as you say, you needed to access that information for a request you said you didn't respond to but to forward him onto Russ. Right, that clears that up. You needed to access information you had no intention of using. Funny that ain't it?

--

[Charles Yarnold]

http://runningahackerspace.tumblr.com/post/117447389665/membership-reaction-when-board-starts-actually

--

[Stefan Sabo]

It is significant for LHS as it is running on TWO WAY CARRIAGEWAY...

On one side, you accusing Dean to accept EGM, as he was put down as Trustee.

On other side, you do not accept, as same EGM do not ban him.

Even, Dean is very complicated, and sometimes you need to be really calm to go over, I was lot of times witness, when he helping new people, or after ask for help, anyone, who asked.

Recently, I was witness of situation, when Dean walk in to space,  say hello to me, and person, who in this moment was with debate with me, goes to be mad and star shouting up to Dean, how he is "bla bla bla bla bla". Yes, of course, reaction of Dean can not be without emotions for this. Imagine, as you walk in the community space and someone, however should have conflict with you at past, start shouting to you. Of course, if this seen someone, who is not involved with all this situation, should take view as Dean is the Devil, especially, when come to this little bit later and do not seen who was ATTACKER.

 

There is recently 1248 members, probably less then 500 attending space minimum one time per month, and less then 200 often.

There is 1248 different personalities, and of course, there will be always opportunities to conflicts. It is life.

But come back to track...

Yes, Dean is one step from to be banned.

But why?

Because small group of people, which part of them have power as trustees, wants it, and do it.

It is simply like that and personal attacks, which coming after my "open Pandora's box" prove it.

In this case, simply group of people put their power effort to goes agains EGM result and finish their wishes, nothing else.

In same time, same people ignore few other people, which count of their friends, and their PERSISTENT ATTACKS on IRC.

I do not care so much, as I am "in talks" on IRC very often.

Simply, I am at space very often and wrote to ML not always at really popular way and it could be taken as reaction.

But I really care, when some friends "Society of Brothers" attack me and dehonest me on IRC because they can.

I can prove minimum 30 example from IRC log, with alongside threads on ML, or anything else.

Even I wrote recently at one of the post, specially on FIRST ROW of it, as I found opened correspondence w/out envelope, it comes again to shits on IRC, how I can open correspondence which is not supposed to me (Yes Tgreer?)

If something is toxic at this space, it is especially this "prove of POWERS" and "Society of Brothers".

I am not perfect, and yes, I have also 2 warnings, but I try to improve my behaviour.

But do not expect, as I will shout my mouth, because you do not like it.

Need to say, as when I wrote original "Mollotow coctail" post, when I goes little bit behind the border, I expect very emotional debate under it.

And yes, it was simply happened.

More likely, then come to some solution, there was personal attacks and refusal of answers.

At this situation, moderators not come to moderate discussion, but simply lock thread.

It not lock people mouths! And it involve another dozen threads, because it is time to take answers.

Must to say, as I am amazed as some of people calm down and goes later to answer few questions, even, can be taken as not at all, but is good step for future.

Apologies to all, who are upset to me. I am simply complicated person and this was part of my contribution for space. I  clean space, take care about daily tasks, how I can. Unfortunately, not all of us are "miracle child" and know to do everything. I know, as lot of people do not like me, and likely wants to ban me too. And expect, as my original post, which start all this, could involve to grievance procedure, because I was literary put out Aladin from the bottle. If this happened, it will be nice evidence, as my little contribution at this case was done well :))

p.s.: for people who do not like my long post.. Take it as therapy.. Part at morning, part at lunch, and something left for dinner, if it is so much at once :]

BTW: hope, some effort and energy will be put today to "Hack the Space" day. Back yard needs several hands.

BTW: My personal exploration at space is, as 70 percent of people, who walk in, are unable say simply "Hello" or "Good Morning/Evening". I do not know, how at England, but me as child was learned, as when coming somewhere, where are other people, it is simply polite to say Hello. And this  show better, then personal attack, how far we are now from "community space". Can we take example from another Hackspaces and have time to time something called "Members Meal" meetup? Simply, each attended member bring food related to his country, may be also drinks. It may be moderated by some "theme" for concretely meetup. Or it is simply impossible, because apart nice talk over food and building "community" will be there fights of some groups, people and destroy it at all?

[Lex Robinson]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016, 05:48 Stefan Sabo, <stefan.do...@gmail.com> wrote:

p.s.: for people who do not like my long post.. Take it as therapy.. Part at morning, part at lunch, and something left for dinner, if it is so much at once :]

I simply skim read instead, since honestly who has enough time to care?

As far as I gathered, you are saying that the IRC Cabal and the trustees that are in it are the only ones that want to get rid of Dean and are using underhand tactics to get rid of him?

[deanforbes]

Charles

absolutely acknowledge I looked at your membership status when I was a Director , I am not sure what impression you are trying to create 

I was asked a question, looked at the data was unsure how to answer so referred this issue to the treasurer and chairman,  that my dear friend is quite normal and above board - I was fulfilling my role as a Director 

all of this as you know was dissected and discussed at the EGM etc it is nothing new

retrospectively as I understand it there are two reference to the grace period and you had the more lenient set applied to you as Russ decide this, which the person asking the question disagreed with  

[Mark Steward]

The website doesn't understand grace periods: you can only see whether someone is a member or not. Or, if you're a trustee, you can click through to their payment history.

Are you saying Tom's question was "did Charles pay his membership late this month"?

Mark

--

[Paddy Duncan]

There appears to be some quite serious collective amnesia going on, considering that this particular incident was dealt with in January.