Future plans for hack evenings
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Russ Garrett
Nov 22, 2009, 4:30:30 PM11/22/09
to London Hack Space
The current block booking of our fortnightly hack evenings in the Hub
ends in December (the last hack evening this year will be Wednesday
16th of December), and we've been discussing where to go from there.
Firstly, we've decided to move the hack evenings to be a monthly event
instead of fortnightly. We want to try and emphasize our Tuesday
meetups to get more people involved in the space, and it will also
hopefully improve attendance at the hack evenings and reduce our
overhead in organizing them.
Secondly, the Hub, who have been generously letting us use their venue
for free, have let us know that they now have interest from some of
their other members in the evenings we're using. So in order for us to
continue using the Hub, they are asking us to pay £2 per person (the
usual hire-out rate of the Hub is £200).
We aren't able to subsidize that price from the meagre surplus we make
from donations, and we don't want to run these evenings at a loss, so
we would have no option but to pass it directly onto people coming to
the event.
Jonty and I don't think this is a good idea - the whole point of these
hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking for a £2 entrance
fee will defeat that point.
We have provisionally booked a hack evening for Thursday 21st of
January at the Hub, but I think we should look for another venue. Any
help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Russ
ends in December (the last hack evening this year will be Wednesday
16th of December), and we've been discussing where to go from there.
Firstly, we've decided to move the hack evenings to be a monthly event
instead of fortnightly. We want to try and emphasize our Tuesday
meetups to get more people involved in the space, and it will also
hopefully improve attendance at the hack evenings and reduce our
overhead in organizing them.
Secondly, the Hub, who have been generously letting us use their venue
for free, have let us know that they now have interest from some of
their other members in the evenings we're using. So in order for us to
continue using the Hub, they are asking us to pay £2 per person (the
usual hire-out rate of the Hub is £200).
We aren't able to subsidize that price from the meagre surplus we make
from donations, and we don't want to run these evenings at a loss, so
we would have no option but to pass it directly onto people coming to
the event.
Jonty and I don't think this is a good idea - the whole point of these
hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking for a £2 entrance
fee will defeat that point.
We have provisionally booked a hack evening for Thursday 21st of
January at the Hub, but I think we should look for another venue. Any
help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Russ
Chris Adams
Nov 22, 2009, 5:20:28 PM11/22/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
Hi Russ,
A couple of points:
> Secondly, the Hub, who have been generously letting us use their venue
> for free, have let us know that they now have interest from some of
> their other members in the evenings we're using. So in order for us to
> continue using the Hub, they are asking us to pay £2 per person (the
> usual hire-out rate of the Hub is £200).
I don't think that was exactly what they were asking for - my
understanding at the meeting was the figure of £2 per head was
suggested, as a way to meet a figure of £80 for the hire of the space,
divided roughly by a guess of how many people were there at the time.
They weren't explicitly telling you to charge two pounds per person;
just to find a way to cover the costs of the venue hire.
If there's enough in the donations box at the end of each hackspace
meetup in the hub to cover the cost of the beer and the venue hire,
then there's need to ask for an entrance fee at all.
> the whole point of these hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking
> for a £2 entrance fee will defeat that point.
Hell, most of the people coming to Angel are regulars now, who clearly
believe there's some value to working on a project there at the space
instead of at home by themselves or they wouldn't turn up. If the
whole point of events at the Hub is drawing new people in, then simply
waiving the entrance fee for newcomers means that people coming for
the first time don't need to be put off, but people who think it's
worth using the space cover the costs of using it.
Having a decent size space for workshops, or working on other
projects, or simply having a drink with some other people is worth at
least 2 quid on top of what I might normally donate to the kitty.
Especially when at other venues, the profits have ended up going to
the venue anyway in the form of higher drinks prices.
---
Disclaimer - I currently use the Hub as an office (I pay between £70
and £200 per month to use it, depending on how much I'm there and who
I'm working for), so I'm accustomed to paying to use this space, and
I'm fairly involved as a member there, so I'm likely to be biased
here, but the point about the evenings in Angel being worth more than
2 quid to me still stands.
--
Chris Adams
mob: 07974 368 229
tel: 0207 558 8971
skype: chris.d.adams
twitter: chris_d_adams
A couple of points:
> Secondly, the Hub, who have been generously letting us use their venue
> for free, have let us know that they now have interest from some of
> their other members in the evenings we're using. So in order for us to
> continue using the Hub, they are asking us to pay £2 per person (the
> usual hire-out rate of the Hub is £200).
understanding at the meeting was the figure of £2 per head was
suggested, as a way to meet a figure of £80 for the hire of the space,
divided roughly by a guess of how many people were there at the time.
They weren't explicitly telling you to charge two pounds per person;
just to find a way to cover the costs of the venue hire.
If there's enough in the donations box at the end of each hackspace
meetup in the hub to cover the cost of the beer and the venue hire,
then there's need to ask for an entrance fee at all.
> the whole point of these hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking
> for a £2 entrance fee will defeat that point.
believe there's some value to working on a project there at the space
instead of at home by themselves or they wouldn't turn up. If the
whole point of events at the Hub is drawing new people in, then simply
waiving the entrance fee for newcomers means that people coming for
the first time don't need to be put off, but people who think it's
worth using the space cover the costs of using it.
Having a decent size space for workshops, or working on other
projects, or simply having a drink with some other people is worth at
least 2 quid on top of what I might normally donate to the kitty.
Especially when at other venues, the profits have ended up going to
the venue anyway in the form of higher drinks prices.
---
Disclaimer - I currently use the Hub as an office (I pay between £70
and £200 per month to use it, depending on how much I'm there and who
I'm working for), so I'm accustomed to paying to use this space, and
I'm fairly involved as a member there, so I'm likely to be biased
here, but the point about the evenings in Angel being worth more than
2 quid to me still stands.
--
Chris Adams
mob: 07974 368 229
tel: 0207 558 8971
skype: chris.d.adams
twitter: chris_d_adams
Russ Garrett
Nov 22, 2009, 5:56:51 PM11/22/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 22:20 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:
> I don't think that was exactly what they were asking for - my
> understanding at the meeting was the figure of £2 per head was
> suggested, as a way to meet a figure of £80 for the hire of the space,
> divided roughly by a guess of how many people were there at the time.
Regardless, £80 is a lot of money for us - it's equivalent to 4 peoples'
> I don't think that was exactly what they were asking for - my
> understanding at the meeting was the figure of £2 per head was
> suggested, as a way to meet a figure of £80 for the hire of the space,
> divided roughly by a guess of how many people were there at the time.
membership subscriptions, and I don't think we should pay that much if
we can avoid it.
We are investigating a couple of places which are as suitable as the Hub
for our needs and won't charge us.
> If there's enough in the donations box at the end of each hackspace
> meetup in the hub to cover the cost of the beer and the venue hire,
> then there's need to ask for an entrance fee at all.
average to about £20. We have made a small net loss on a couple of
occasions. I am still trying to get an answer on a tax question which
would basically change that £20 surplus into a loss.
> > the whole point of these hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking
> > for a £2 entrance fee will defeat that point.
>
> Hell, most of the people coming to Angel are regulars now, who clearly
> believe there's some value to working on a project there at the space
> instead of at home by themselves or they wouldn't turn up. If the
> whole point of events at the Hub is drawing new people in, then simply
> waiving the entrance fee for newcomers means that people coming for
> the first time don't need to be put off, but people who think it's
> worth using the space cover the costs of using it.
get new people involved and I don't
> Having a decent size space for workshops, or working on other
> projects, or simply having a drink with some other people is worth at
> least 2 quid on top of what I might normally donate to the kitty.
>
> Especially when at other venues, the profits have ended up going to
> the venue anyway in the form of higher drinks prices.
I don't mind that. We don't make money on the drinks.
> projects, or simply having a drink with some other people is worth at
> least 2 quid on top of what I might normally donate to the kitty.
>
> Especially when at other venues, the profits have ended up going to
> the venue anyway in the form of higher drinks prices.
Russ
Russ Garrett
Nov 22, 2009, 6:01:07 PM11/22/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
I sent my previous message before it was finished. Just answering this
point properly:
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 22:20 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:
waiving entrance fees is a good way of doing it. (Even ignoring the
administrative cost of tracking everyone, we'd have to subsidise them
from our lack of profit.)
Our space is great for working on projects and running small workshops,
and I want more people to use it that way. The hack evenings are more
for socialising, showing stuff off, and meeting new people.
Russ
point properly:
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 22:20 +0000, Chris Adams wrote:
> > the whole point of these hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking
> > for a £2 entrance fee will defeat that point.
>
> Hell, most of the people coming to Angel are regulars now, who clearly
> believe there's some value to working on a project there at the space
> instead of at home by themselves or they wouldn't turn up. If the
> whole point of events at the Hub is drawing new people in, then simply
> waiving the entrance fee for newcomers means that people coming for
> the first time don't need to be put off, but people who think it's
> worth using the space cover the costs of using it.
> > for a £2 entrance fee will defeat that point.
>
> Hell, most of the people coming to Angel are regulars now, who clearly
> believe there's some value to working on a project there at the space
> instead of at home by themselves or they wouldn't turn up. If the
> whole point of events at the Hub is drawing new people in, then simply
> waiving the entrance fee for newcomers means that people coming for
> the first time don't need to be put off, but people who think it's
> worth using the space cover the costs of using it.
Well, although that may be the case, the point of these meetings *is* to
get new people involved and I don't think us absorbing the cost by
waiving entrance fees is a good way of doing it. (Even ignoring the
administrative cost of tracking everyone, we'd have to subsidise them
from our lack of profit.)
Our space is great for working on projects and running small workshops,
and I want more people to use it that way. The hack evenings are more
for socialising, showing stuff off, and meeting new people.
Russ
Paul Dart
Nov 22, 2009, 7:35:53 PM11/22/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
Charging £2 or whatever you want to charge would be enough of an
incentive for me not to turn up - most might see this as a bonus.
I say just find another venue. Prehaps we could go back to a pub now we
have a space for projects/work and the monthly evening thing could be
purely social (that's what I view it as anyway). Also that could solve
the food problem. The pizzas at the regent were nice iirc...
Otherwise we could just move the social to Jonty's house? ;)
Paul
incentive for me not to turn up - most might see this as a bonus.
I say just find another venue. Prehaps we could go back to a pub now we
have a space for projects/work and the monthly evening thing could be
purely social (that's what I view it as anyway). Also that could solve
the food problem. The pizzas at the regent were nice iirc...
Otherwise we could just move the social to Jonty's house? ;)
Paul
Luke Dodd
Nov 22, 2009, 5:24:57 PM11/22/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
*de lurk*
As someone who's been thinking about turning up for months now I can
honestly say a £2 donation would not put me off, especially with the
explanation that it pays to hire the place. (in fact it might make me
feel like less of a free loader :))
*re lurk*
2009/11/22 Chris Adams <ma...@chrisadams.me.uk>:
As someone who's been thinking about turning up for months now I can
honestly say a £2 donation would not put me off, especially with the
explanation that it pays to hire the place. (in fact it might make me
feel like less of a free loader :))
*re lurk*
2009/11/22 Chris Adams <ma...@chrisadams.me.uk>:
Adam McGreggor
Nov 23, 2009, 7:27:18 AM11/23/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 01:30:30PM -0800, Russ Garrett wrote:
> We aren't able to subsidize that price from the meagre surplus we make
> from donations, and we don't want to run these evenings at a loss, so
> we would have no option but to pass it directly onto people coming to
> the event.
I don't think it should be subsidized.
> We aren't able to subsidize that price from the meagre surplus we make
> from donations, and we don't want to run these evenings at a loss, so
> we would have no option but to pass it directly onto people coming to
> the event.
> Jonty and I don't think this is a good idea - the whole point of these
> hack evenings is to draw new people in, and asking for a �2 entrance
> fee will defeat that point.
nothing. We drink enough beer to cover places with minimum bar
takings.
> We have provisionally booked a hack evening for Thursday 21st of
> January at the Hub, but I think we should look for another venue. Any
> help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
--
``Tony Blair has made `morale boosting' visits
to the wives of servicemen serving in the Gulf.'' (BBC News)
Robert Leverington
Nov 23, 2009, 11:29:05 AM11/23/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
On 2009-11-23, Paul Dart wrote:
> Charging £2 or whatever you want to charge would be enough of an
> incentive for me not to turn up - most might see this as a bonus.
>
> I say just find another venue. Prehaps we could go back to a pub now we
> have a space for projects/work and the monthly evening thing could be
> purely social (that's what I view it as anyway). Also that could solve
> the food problem. The pizzas at the regent were nice iirc...
While a £2 entry fee would not put me off turning up, I would agree with
Paul here. I do not think hiring the Hub would be the best use of
donated money, given there are numerous alternatives.
Robert
Nils Toedtmann
Dec 2, 2009, 11:47:46 AM12/2/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com, Tom Salfield, The Hub Hosts
[Disclaimer: i work for the Hub hence i am biased.]
Hi,
i am a bit surprised. I consider the HackSpace meetup+workshops
happening at the Hub being a powerful combination. It has high
potential, particularly (human) networking wise. I think you should at
least give it a try before you give up on that.
Some thoughts:
* There are several options besides an entrance fee, e.g. a venue
donation box next to the drinks donation box, or a reminder to consider
a +�2 venue top-up on the donation.
* Most geeks are good with numbers. They know that an evening in a pub
is more expensive than in the Hub, and that +�2 won't change that.
* If someone is defeated by �2 from a HackSpace Meetup+Workshop, how
likely will (s)he join a �20/month members space?
* The Hub is a great venue for a HackSpace meetup: you can socialize,
drink, work, solder, have a workshop, hack - all at the same time, in a
cool space. The only real downside is the Pizza issue (ok, and it gets a
bit chilly in winter). Is it really that easy to find an other venue of
the same quality for free? I doubt it.
Just my 2p. See you later, /nils.
Hi,
i am a bit surprised. I consider the HackSpace meetup+workshops
happening at the Hub being a powerful combination. It has high
potential, particularly (human) networking wise. I think you should at
least give it a try before you give up on that.
Some thoughts:
* There are several options besides an entrance fee, e.g. a venue
donation box next to the drinks donation box, or a reminder to consider
a +�2 venue top-up on the donation.
* Most geeks are good with numbers. They know that an evening in a pub
is more expensive than in the Hub, and that +�2 won't change that.
* If someone is defeated by �2 from a HackSpace Meetup+Workshop, how
likely will (s)he join a �20/month members space?
* The Hub is a great venue for a HackSpace meetup: you can socialize,
drink, work, solder, have a workshop, hack - all at the same time, in a
cool space. The only real downside is the Pizza issue (ok, and it gets a
bit chilly in winter). Is it really that easy to find an other venue of
the same quality for free? I doubt it.
Just my 2p. See you later, /nils.
Adam McGreggor
Dec 2, 2009, 12:06:00 PM12/2/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com, Tom Salfield, The Hub Hosts
On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 04:47:46PM +0000, Nils Toedtmann wrote:
> * If someone is defeated by �2 from a HackSpace Meetup+Workshop, how
> likely will (s)he join a �20/month members space?
I see that as comparable with paying one's own mortgage, or
> * If someone is defeated by �2 from a HackSpace Meetup+Workshop, how
> likely will (s)he join a �20/month members space?
someother sod's (i.e., renting). 20quid is more than a place, it's got
other bits and bobs involved (own project, access to the place, role
in governance, that sort of thing). Why pay twice? Being at others'
hospitality will have to end at some point.
> * The Hub is a great venue for a HackSpace meetup: you can socialize,
> drink, work, solder, have a workshop, hack - all at the same time, in a
> cool space.
> The only real downside is the Pizza issue (ok, and it gets a
> bit chilly in winter). Is it really that easy to find an other venue of
> the same quality for free? I doubt it.
--
``Every public action which is not customary either is wrong, or, if it is
right, is a dangerous precedent. It follows that nothing should ever be
done for the first time.'' (Francis Cornford, Microcosmographia Academica)
Ian Hiddleston
Dec 2, 2009, 12:11:44 PM12/2/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
From the point of view of a perennial lurker:
I only go along to the Hub meets, as I have other things happening on a Tuesday and can't afford the £20 a month full membership plus train fare each time I want to go into London. I also have no trouble paying £2 for a decent evening twice a month considering I'm already paying £5 in train fare every time I go, it still works out a lot cheaper than most of the things I do and gives me somewhere warm with decent priced alcohol, and a group of people who don't look at me like some kind of freak when I start pulling something apart to work on it.
Ian.
I only go along to the Hub meets, as I have other things happening on a Tuesday and can't afford the £20 a month full membership plus train fare each time I want to go into London. I also have no trouble paying £2 for a decent evening twice a month considering I'm already paying £5 in train fare every time I go, it still works out a lot cheaper than most of the things I do and gives me somewhere warm with decent priced alcohol, and a group of people who don't look at me like some kind of freak when I start pulling something apart to work on it.
Ian.
2009/12/2 Nils Toedtmann <nils.to...@gmail.com>
David W
Dec 2, 2009, 12:42:02 PM12/2/09
to London Hack Space
As another lurker who is considering coming along (and would be
tonight if something else hadn't got in the way)... I wouldn't be put
off by an entrance fee as such, but it feels less welcoming.
Other usergroup type gathering (I realise hackspace might be a little
different) are generally sponsored by a company who has a vested
interest in being associated with the tech being discussed. They can
then either pay for or provide some space in which it can take place.
Not sure how people feel about that - just an idea from someone who
may never actually get around to dropping in. Feel free to disregard.
dw.
On Dec 2, 5:11 pm, Ian Hiddleston <ian....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From the point of view of a perennial lurker:
>
> I only go along to the Hub meets, as I have other things happening on a
> Tuesday and can't afford the £20 a month full membership plus train fare
> each time I want to go into London. I also have no trouble paying £2 for a
> decent evening twice a month considering I'm already paying £5 in train fare
> every time I go, it still works out a lot cheaper than most of the things I
> do and gives me somewhere warm with decent priced alcohol, and a group of
> people who don't look at me like some kind of freak when I start pulling
> something apart to work on it.
>
> Ian.
>
> 2009/12/2 Nils Toedtmann <nils.toedtm...@gmail.com>
tonight if something else hadn't got in the way)... I wouldn't be put
off by an entrance fee as such, but it feels less welcoming.
Other usergroup type gathering (I realise hackspace might be a little
different) are generally sponsored by a company who has a vested
interest in being associated with the tech being discussed. They can
then either pay for or provide some space in which it can take place.
Not sure how people feel about that - just an idea from someone who
may never actually get around to dropping in. Feel free to disregard.
dw.
On Dec 2, 5:11 pm, Ian Hiddleston <ian....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From the point of view of a perennial lurker:
>
> I only go along to the Hub meets, as I have other things happening on a
> Tuesday and can't afford the £20 a month full membership plus train fare
> each time I want to go into London. I also have no trouble paying £2 for a
> decent evening twice a month considering I'm already paying £5 in train fare
> every time I go, it still works out a lot cheaper than most of the things I
> do and gives me somewhere warm with decent priced alcohol, and a group of
> people who don't look at me like some kind of freak when I start pulling
> something apart to work on it.
>
> Ian.
>
andrewblack
Dec 3, 2009, 5:13:01 AM12/3/09
to London Hack Space
As a first timer last night, I would make the following points
- £2 seems a reasonable charge for coming to the event
- Hub seems like a very good venue to hold it
- I cant see the company sponsorship route working for this type of
event (not least because it could make the event less regular)
- Not been to the space so I can't comment on its suitabilt, but its
distance from public transport puts me off a bit
PS - I really enjoyed the evening,
Andrew
- £2 seems a reasonable charge for coming to the event
- Hub seems like a very good venue to hold it
- I cant see the company sponsorship route working for this type of
event (not least because it could make the event less regular)
- Not been to the space so I can't comment on its suitabilt, but its
distance from public transport puts me off a bit
PS - I really enjoyed the evening,
Andrew
Russ Garrett
Dec 6, 2009, 4:57:14 PM12/6/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com, Tom Salfield, The Hub Hosts
I spoke to Nils on Wednesday and let him know our reasoning, but I'll
write it here for the purposes of completeness.
The reason we're moving is, bluntly, that we've got a better offer - the
Trampery (another co-working space) in Shoreditch has graciously offered
to lend us their space for free. It's a great space.
So the money talks, here.
More generally, we've had responses from a couple of people saying that
they wouldn't come if there was a £2 entry fee, and we really don't want
to deter anyone if at all possible.
I don't think the "free" beer is really the selling point, and it does
cost us quite a bit of administrative hassle (and potentially
corporation tax issues too). Considering the Trampery isn't in the same
proximity to Sainsburys, we're considering making the event BYOB. The
other alternative is to get beer delivered wholesale, but this is
starting to tread a fine line on the Licensing Act IMO.
One more option, now we are on a monthly schedule, is to work with the
Trampery to secure Temporary Event Notices for our events, which would
allow us to legally sell alcohol. But since these are limited to 12 per
year per location, we need to see if they're OK giving us their whole
allocation.
Cheers,
Russ
write it here for the purposes of completeness.
The reason we're moving is, bluntly, that we've got a better offer - the
Trampery (another co-working space) in Shoreditch has graciously offered
to lend us their space for free. It's a great space.
So the money talks, here.
More generally, we've had responses from a couple of people saying that
they wouldn't come if there was a £2 entry fee, and we really don't want
to deter anyone if at all possible.
I don't think the "free" beer is really the selling point, and it does
cost us quite a bit of administrative hassle (and potentially
corporation tax issues too). Considering the Trampery isn't in the same
proximity to Sainsburys, we're considering making the event BYOB. The
other alternative is to get beer delivered wholesale, but this is
starting to tread a fine line on the Licensing Act IMO.
One more option, now we are on a monthly schedule, is to work with the
Trampery to secure Temporary Event Notices for our events, which would
allow us to legally sell alcohol. But since these are limited to 12 per
year per location, we need to see if they're OK giving us their whole
allocation.
Cheers,
Russ
Colin Wright
Dec 15, 2009, 9:36:40 AM12/15/09
to london-h...@googlegroups.com
I agree. £2 is reasonable.
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