Pledge: Heavy Duty, 3-in-1 Lathe, Mill, Drill

[AbbyKatt]

Hi,

We've just added a new pledge to the WIKI : Luke Graham and myself are
putting in the initial 40% needed for the pledge. It's for a 3-in-1
machine to augment the existing mill and lathe (the small lathe is
really not up to the task of many projects). This is large and serious
piece of equipment which will make possible many of the tasks I see
people trying to do but struggling - it means along with the welder we
actually have a true workshop capable of the tasks needed for
ambitious projects, rather than a model-only, small prototyping,
workshop where everything is limited to plastic (admittedly plastic is
very cool, but some things like wheels and pulleys are better done in
metal)

http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Pledges/Lathe_Milling_Machine_Combo

An example of the things this would allow us to undertake:

* 3" aluminium jog wheel for Arduino project, easy. (LATHE / CNC
LATHE)
* Bandsaw, SegWay? Make your own Pulleys and Wheels, up to 800mm
diameter, complete with recesses for bearings (LATHE)
* Metal gears, telescope gears? Check. (LATHE)
* Aluminium, brass, steel components for machinery. (MILL, CNC MILL)
* Complex pattern, Sheet metal cutting/drilling (MILL, CNC MILL)
* CAM Locks, clamps (LATHE using included 4-jaw chuck)
* PCB circuit board drilling + PCB board profile cutout (CNC MILL)
* Signmaking in metal? (MILL/CNC MILL)
* High-speed prototyping in Foam for lost-foam or plaster casting?
(MILL, CNC MILL)
* Canon? Air Canon? Net gun? Super-high pressure end-boss Nerf canon?
(LATHE)
* Make pneumatics for your robotic project? Check! (LATHE, CNC LATHE)
* To make the components for CNC conversion of this machine? - you use
this machine! (LATHE/MILL)
* Square-off Wood/Metal to be planar? (MILL + Included FlyCutter)

Thanks for your attention,
AbbyKatt + Luke G



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Repost apologies for full pledge below for those skim-reading it on
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This pledge is for a heavy-duty 3-in-1 machine to compliment the
existing machines at the hackspace. With the additional room now
available, this very capable machine would allow us to undertake much
more ambitious projects that the existing mill and lathe - furthermore
it's emminently hackable into CNC (man-u-matic - where the machine
works as both manual and CNC). The great benefit of this design is
once you CNC the mill, you automatically get a CNC lathe!

==The item==
* CLARKE 3-1 in Lathe, Mill, Drill
* CL500M
* http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cl500.pdf

==About this pledge==
So why this machine? We already have a lathe

Because it rules. The current mill is quite nice, but has a small
working area - the current lathe makes a lot of heat and noise but is
rather challenging to use for anything else. With this machine we can
do serious cuts in steel, we can machine huge components, it's shear
bulk and weighs mean it deflects less and can undertake huge projects
(the current lathe weighs 18KG, this one weighs 209KG!) Fully CNCed
this would be a serious compliment to our machining : reprap nozzle
broken? Make a new one from stainless! Reprap part not strong enough?
Make it from STEEL!

What can you do with this machine?

Large machines can do small projects, but small machines cannot do
large projects. The additional rigidity afforded by the weight of the
machine means that it takes smooth and precise cuts, and its large
size means we can undertake some quite serious projects, for example:

* 3" aluminium jog wheel for Arduino project, easy. (LATHE / CNC
LATHE)
* Bandsaw, SegWay? Make your own Pulleys and Wheels, up to 800mm
diameter, complete with recesses for bearings (LATHE)
* Metal gears, telescope gears? Check. (LATHE)
* Aluminium, brass, steel components for machinery. (MILL, CNC MILL)
* Complex pattern, Sheet metal cutting/drilling (MILL, CNC MILL)
* CAM Locks, clamps (LATHE using included 4-jaw chuck)
* PCB circuit board drilling + PCB board profile cutout (CNC MILL)
* Signmaking in metal? (MILL/CNC MILL)
* High-speed prototyping in Foam for lost-foam or plaster casting?
(MILL, CNC MILL)
* Canon? Air Canon? Net gun? Super-high pressure end-boss Nerf canon?
(LATHE)
* Make pneumatics for your robotic project? Check! (LATHE, CNC LATHE)
* To make the components for CNC conversion of this machine? - you use
this machine! (LATHE/MILL)
* Square-off Wood/Metal to be planar? (MILL + Included FlyCutter)


How much and who's contributing?

The machine costs £1020 including VAT and delivery, the initial plan
is for the machine to be manual, and we will convert it (by making the
various components on the machine and buying other components over the
duration of the year) AbbyKatt is a pretty competent machinist and has
done a few CNC conversions already (check his website at http://www.silverkatt.co.uk
for some examples). The idea is the machine will always be able to run
in Manual Mode, but will have an augmentive CNC capability.

==Pledges==
* £200 AbbyKatt
* £200 Luke Graham

Running total: £400
Approximate target: £1020

[Elliot West]

With this in mind - should we re-evaluate the plan to convert the mini-mill? Assuming there is consensus, our existing pledges and donations would go a fair way towards the acquisition of a larger mill. Also it appears that we now have in-house expertise for CNC conversion to be performed at a lower cost than an off the shelf kit.

Or should we stick with the current plans and eventually have 2 CNC mills!

I have no strong opinions about this myself - I just want to put the possibility out there.

Cheers - Elliot.

[Adrian Godwin]

Big machines need big CNC - expensive motors etc.. And , to be honest, people managed without CNC for very many years. If you're making one-offs and not doing difficult moves such as interconnected curves, it's not worth it. You don't need CNC to cut a square hole and there's a simple pleasure in doing the multiple passes you need to cut away a more complex form. Toolpath calculation is by no means simple for 3D objects, either.

I would suggest continuing to look at a small CNC setup for the Seig mill. And also look for a big mill that won't balk at cutting proper bits of metal. Compare the possibilities very carefully - a friend bought a bridgeport with glass DROs for what that 3-in-1 costs and it's 10 times the machine in both power and accuracy. Now we have decent space, we should get decent machinery.

Talk to good engineers - try the Usenet group uk.rec.model.engineering.

Get to the upcoming model engineers show, and study the chinese imports carefully. Clarke are amongst the poorer ones - there are a few smaller importers who take much more care to ensure that the mills have decent quality control (and they're still not great).

Also : allow as much money for tooling (cutters, vice, measuring equipment, etc. etc.) as you do for the machine. Seriously. After you've had it 5 years and done some major jobs on it, you'll realise that's an underestimate.

artag

[Adrian Godwin]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bridgeport-Interact-II-series-2-CNC-Milling-Machine-/320638651889

 

[Ken Boak]

I've got one of these multi-function machines - had it 15 years. Just like the one Clarke are selling.

Yes it can swing big stuff, but the rigidity and accuracy is poor. It's typical of what the Chinese are banging out at low cost.

It's neither a decent lathe nor a decent mill. The mill/drill head gets in the way of turning and the chuck gets in the way of milling.

Your £1000 would go a lot further buying a decent professional mill or lathe, second hand from a technical college.

I would assess other options before you rush out and buy what I found to be a disappointing machine.  A few months after buying this, I got a great 2nd hand Austrian lathe/mill for £300 - made the Chinese one look like a turkey.


Ken

[Simon Howes]

Hi Ken,

I've been considering all the options for some time now - obviously this machine is light compared to the heavy iron of a bridgeport. That said I've had variable success with buying secondhand machines, often there can be startlingly expensive problems with them and as they often come from somewhere like the midlands theres little chance to inspect them before they arrive. Chances are you can end up with a 2 ton machine you have to pay to have scrapped.

Yes the lathe is not the best possible lathe, yes, the mill could be better - but considering footprint, price, the fact the machine will be bashed about a bit, and that we intend to give it some initial tlc (like replacing the tapered roller bearings) the machine makes a very good choice. They've improved a lot since you bought your machine, and there is a lot online about ways to improve these machines.

Most importantly it needs to be in budget and time. Its all well and good to say "if you shop around for six months on ebay" and spend £1000 per machine... its another to actually raise the money. At the moment we're fifty percent of the way there - we can have the machine in a month! We can be making stuff with it right away.

AbbyKatt

[Simon Howes]

Very nice machine, but no manual capability.
Theres an awful lot of these nice machines around (I drool all the time at the amazing cnc turret lathes) but we really do need to start with a manual machine.

We can always buy these utopian wonders later...

On 8 Jan 2011 15:41, "Adrian Godwin" <artg...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bridgeport-Interact-II-series-2-CNC-Milling-Machine-/320638651889

[spooq]

FWIW, the Clarke weighs 160kg, and the Bridgeport weighs 2000kg.

As a non-expert, I'm also concerned about second-hand machines. A new
Chinese machine is known to have poor assembly, but we can fix that,
and factor it into the cost. There are potential wear problems with an
older machine that we have no chance of fixing at a reasonable cost.

I think the most important thing is to get the scale of the machine
right, rather than going over the same Chinese vs not-Chinese
arguments that seem to be on every forum. Do we want a 3-phase
industrial-scale machine, or do we want to take something smaller.
Power vs practicality, in other words.

Luke

[Sam Cook]

I have nearly no idea about the relative merits of the different machines but it would be nice to get something that just works. If we can buy a 2nd hand machine and get it working for £50 that's fine but if we need to spend another £1,000 and 6 months of hard labour to get it working I'd rather go with something that's new and maybe not as heavy duty but works out of the box (as it were)

Also: how much _more_ is it reasonable to expect that we pay on this? The clarke is advertised with basics but how much more will we need to get to make it fully usable (eg supports etc)? how much is this likely to cost?

Abby you are saying that you're looking at making some mods straight away with it to improve it (bearing replacements) how expensive is this likey to be?

Thanks

S

[Ken Boak]

The quality of any machine is down to the stiffness of the bed, and the rigidity with which the cutting tool can be held in relation to the workpiece.

Even a machine weighing 200kgs will have limited rigidity and stiffness.   On the Clark machine the tool post holder is not very rigidly mounted.  You will expect chatter and irregular cutting when the tool is cutting any distance from the centre.

The mill attachement is a simple derivation from a pillar drill and is neither rigid enough or suitably supported to allow serious accurate milling in anything other than soft alloys or plastics.

The lead screw are poor and suffer from noticeable backlash.

Please take my word for this and I advise you that this is not a quality machine. The design has not changed in 15years since I bought mine.

You might wish to look at Chester who sell similar but improved machines - with powered crossfeed and bed, and a separate motor for milling operations. 

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/centurion_3in1.htm

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/centurion_3in1_longbed.htm


Ken

[Adrian Godwin]

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 4:29 PM, spooq <spo...@gmail.com> wrote:

FWIW, the Clarke weighs 160kg, and the Bridgeport weighs 2000kg.

So, the bridgeport is 12.5 times better than the Clarke, right ?
In machines, mass is stiffness is accuracy.
 

As a non-expert, I'm also concerned about second-hand machines. A new
Chinese machine is known to have poor assembly, but we can fix that,
and factor it into the cost. There are potential wear problems with an
older machine that we have no chance of fixing at a reasonable cost.

It's not that simple. The chinese machines aren't just poorly assembled, they're poorly made. They come, effectively, ready-worn-out, just like a maltreated secondhand machine.

I do appreciate your wariness of buying secondhand and have been caught out myself that way .. but I'd still, having learnt from it, do the same thing again. Just get more experienced people to help me buy. And no, i wouldn't buy a secondhand machine unseen from the other end of the country. I'd inspect it, perhaps make some cuts, fiddle with it for a while and only then consider paying.

 

I think the most important thing is to get the scale of the machine
right, rather than going over the same Chinese vs not-Chinese
arguments that seem to be on every forum. Do we want a 3-phase
industrial-scale machine, or do we want to take something smaller.
Power vs practicality, in other words.

Luke

On 8 January 2011 16:12, Simon Howes <simonh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Very nice machine, but no manual capability.

Yes, fair comment. I was just pointing out what you can buy for a classy secondhand machine already fitted with CNC, as opposed to buying a chinese machine and fitting it out. I also would recommend a manual machine (and indeed I did, a couple of replies ago :-)

-adrian

 

[Simon Howes]

Woah-woah-woah,

Okay - I'd been a bit hesitant to post this to the forums and now I remember why - I know everyone is trying to help, and I'm glad for the replies but I can see we're ending up in the huge type of argument that I've seen on endless forums over the ages. I just can't be bothered to enter into what often becomes a flamewar on this type of thing, I'd rather just talk to people in person and secure the funding this way, and that's exactly what I intend to do - we're already half way there.

Okay, before I get blown away in a wave of hatin', let me try at least to explain why we've taken this approach - i.e. why have we chosen this machine?

So why this machine?
Because the current facilities at Hackspace are limited. Yes, I know it's not an industrial machine - I have used my fair share of these. These lathes/mills are incredible machines, very powerful, very rigid. This machine will not be that rigid, but considering we're going from 0% capacity to do work to some capacity it matches the criteria of "good enough." And it's not to say this machine is not good, it will do an awful lot of what people actually want, which is often small projects. The small lathe would be OK for this, but it just isn't big enough to be rigid; this machine fills a niche by providing in an easy step the exact requirements we now need. If we find a Bridgeport later on, wheel it in, this machine will always remain useful.

I agree the Centurion (from Chester) is a far nicer machine, if funds are rapidly forthcoming I'd be happy to chose this instead - in fact, if we fall a little short I'd be happy to put a little extra in for that machine. I have a decent sized mill from Chester and can attest to their quality.

Why not just fix-up an old industrial Bridgeport, Myford, Denford etc?
Because we don't have the money; no one has pledged the time to actually refit one of these, and the risk with these machines is that they may not be economically viable. Have you seen how much components for Bridgeport's cost? Spindle Bearings? Gearbox? CNC bridgeport - check the price if the controller or one of the motors is dead. Also, many parts non-standard, so no happy hacking. Your bargain can easily end up needing twice the value in repair components, time, or just not be fixable. The free market regulates the price of these machine - a 300 quid bridgeport is that price because it's worth that price. It's nice to think we could wheel something in, turn it on and away we'd go, but bitter bitter experience tells me this will not be the case. Further, has anyone who suggested we buy these even considered how we would even get the machine into the Hackspace? They stand over two meters high, weigh two tonnes. We may well fit it into the freight elevator, the hall isn't so wide however,  the only way it's going to get it into the space is by dissasembling it. And that means putting it back together. I'm quite happy to unpack the 3-in-1 and clean it up, even switch out the bearings out of my own pocket and pay for tooling, I'm a lot less happy about spending the next six months trying to fix the spindle play/chatter/gearbox/backlash on a Bridgeport only to find that bearings cost twice as much as I paid for the machine. We'd have to be very lucky indeed to find two quality machines (a lathe and a mill) for under a thousand where one or both of them weren't utterly knackered. The 3-in-1 is nowhere near as advanced as these machines, and consequently, I know even if this gearbox is broken it's not going to cost a fortune to replace. We can go down MachineMart and buy new pulleys, the bearings are standard off-the-shelf types.

Approach?
The old addage applies, you can make machines, or you can make things. I want to make things. If you want a CNC Bridgeport, or CNC turret (and I initially did till I rethought it), create a pledge for one. I'll even help you oil it. But this isn't a pledge for a single purpose machine, this is a pledge to give us the capability we need right now. Not in six months time, not after we repair the gearbox, but right now.  This is the way we can have a machine which does an awful lot of what we actually need. It won't be the best of class, and sure, I know all too well about these chinese machines and their monsters, but this isn't about a utopian vision for the ultimate machine. It's about making a pragmatic decision and being able to make cool stuff.

[Adrian Godwin]

Fair enough - as long as you've thought about it and decided on that course then its up to you to choose the right compromise (and _anything's_ going to be a compromise).

I just didn't want you to think a 3-in-1 was going to be a perfect choice either - it's easy to choose an affordable machine without realising why industrial quality is so expensive.

-adrian

 

[Mike Harrison]

>I agree the Centurion (from Chester) is a far nicer machine, if funds are
>rapidly forthcoming I'd be happy to chose this instead - in fact, if we fall
>a little short I'd be happy to put a little extra in for that machine. I
>have a decent sized mill from Chester and can attest to their quality.

Something I noticed on the Chester site is the price appears to include a selection of tooling - not
clear what the Clarke includes, if anything
Looking at their website, they do a vast range from low to high-end, but mostly machine tools, so
they should know what they're doing, whearas Clarke do a very wide range of very cheap cr^h^h stuff.
Comments here from an owner of the Clarke suggest there are probably better options, even among
lower-priced machines

Another thing to bear in mind that you quite often get show-only discounts or inclusive accessory
offers from these sort of places.

As regards used industrial quality stuff, the biggest problem is you need to be very lucky and
really know what you're doing, so looking for a slightly-less-than bottom of the range new machine
seems to offer the most certainty. However should an opportunity for a super machine at a bargain
price, or a donation come along in the future, a machine bought new will still have a reasonable
resale value so it's not a completely one-way decision.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/lathe-mill-chester-centurion-/120646263991

[Niels]

I agree - "The perfect is the enemy of the good"

We need to the space to thrive and expand. To this end we need
facilities that people cannot find elsewhere. The proposed machine is
a considerable improvement on what we have now, and is within reach
financially.

On Jan 8, 7:12 pm, Simon Howes <simonhowes...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Woah-woah-woah,
>
> Okay - I'd been a bit hesitant to post this to the forums and now I remember
> why - I know everyone is trying to help, and I'm glad for the replies but I
> can see we're ending up in the huge type of argument that I've seen on
> endless forums over the ages. I just can't be bothered to enter into what
> often becomes a flamewar on this type of thing, I'd rather just talk to
> people in person and secure the funding this way, and that's exactly what I
> intend to do - we're already half way there.
>
> Okay, before I get blown away in a wave of hatin', let me try at least to
> explain why we've taken this approach - i.e. why have we chosen this
> machine?
>

> *So why this machine?*

> Because the current facilities at Hackspace are limited. Yes, I know it's
> not an industrial machine - I have used my fair share of these. These
> lathes/mills are incredible machines, very powerful, very rigid. This
> machine will not be that rigid, but considering we're going from 0% capacity
> to do work to some capacity it matches the criteria of "good enough." And
> it's not to say this machine is not good, it will do an awful lot of what
> people actually want, which is often small projects. The small lathe would
> be OK for this, but it just isn't big enough to be rigid; this machine fills
> a niche by providing in an easy step the exact requirements we now need. If
> we find a Bridgeport later on, wheel it in, this machine will always remain
> useful.
>
> I agree the Centurion (from Chester) is a far nicer machine, if funds are
> rapidly forthcoming I'd be happy to chose this instead - in fact, if we fall
> a little short I'd be happy to put a little extra in for that machine. I
> have a decent sized mill from Chester and can attest to their quality.
>

> *Why not just fix-up an old industrial Bridgeport, Myford, Denford etc?*

> *Approach?*

[Ciarán Mooney]

Hi,

It seems we have obtained the pledges required.

What's next?

Ciarán

[Ken Boak]

Before you settle on a machine, you might like to see one.

 

Warco, near Godalming in Surrey do the same range of machines as Chester.

 

http://www.warco.co.uk/WMT800-Combined-Metalworking-Lathe-and-Milling-Machine-6F646869F7.aspx

 

 

They also have some ex-demo/second hand machines for sale.

 

 

 

Ken

[spooq]

The machine you've linked to seems to be £1700?

Luke

[Ken Boak]

Luke,

 

Ok I linked to the long bed model - as the centurian comes in 2 sizes.

 

Basically its the same machine, made by the same Chinese factory and badge engineered and painted up for either Chester or Warco.

 

Warco are more expensive, but you have to check the complete package including any tooling supplied and make sure you are comparing like with like.

 

Chester have a showroom at Rainham in Essex, if that's more local for some. 

 

http://www.chesteruk.net/showrooms.htm

 

 

 

[spooq]

On 10 February 2011 11:12, Ken Boak <ken....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Luke,
>
> Ok I linked to the long bed model - as the centurian comes in 2 sizes.

No problem. :)

> Basically its the same machine, made by the same Chinese factory and badge
> engineered and painted up for either Chester or Warco.
>
> Warco are more expensive, but you have to check the complete package
> including any tooling supplied and make sure you are comparing like with
> like.

Yep, these machines are sold by lots of people. Don't worry, we will
make sure we are getting the most for the money.

Luke

[Adrian Godwin]

Warco and Chester are often compared in model engineering circles as they sell very similar machines. Axminster Power Tools are another option. However, customer service varies  - it's worth a bit of research to try to find out what the situation is before you make a decision.

This isn't just how nice they are on the phone - I recall a friend cancelling his purchase because of the extended delivery time he suffered. Unfortunately I can't remember which one it was, and things may have changed anyway. uk.rec.models.engineering is probably a good place to look or ask.

-adrian

[Adrian Godwin]

I notice that the Chester listing specifies '415 or 240v'.

Does this mean it's rewirable ? Or that you choose either a single-phase or a three-phase model ?

Single phase is most commonly chosen for small workshops, but if it's a choice at purchase time 3-phase might be worth considering, because :

1. We have 3-phase available, so there's no problem providing it

2. 3-phase motors are generally considered smoother and more reliable than single-phase

3. Most importantly,  if the intention to add CNC control is carried out, motor speed can be controlled using a variable frequency drive. The actual drive can be bought at any time, but such drives require 3-phase motors (even when the mains supply is single-phase) so retrofitting would require a change of motor.


-adrian