RepRap

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Kal

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Jun 19, 2012, 2:12:06 PM6/19/12
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Hi all,

Just to let everyone know that I have taken the Prusa mendel from the space and to my work, where I plan on working on it further.

There seems to have been some confusion that it was "the spaces", and it is not really clear to me who descided that was the case, particularly without ever asking either me or samthetechie.

However it has always been true that samthetechie and I started the build in the space as a personal project, with the full intension of eventually taking it for our own use, with the majority of the work and investment being done by the two of us intially.

I know that Chris specifically has put a lot of work into it recently, and I have spoken about this with him to make arrangements for it's future use.

Kal





Clare Greenhalgh

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Jun 19, 2012, 2:24:41 PM6/19/12
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I find it amazing that it just sat at the Space for so long, not working, with many other people there giving up their time to mend it and then when Chris has finally got it working really well you take it away. It may well have been yours and Sam's to start with, but after leaving such a large piece at the Space for so long, without a do not hack or any other form of ownership sticker I think this is very selfish.

You may have put it together, but getting it working well has certainly been done by others.

Have fun with it.

Noko

Billy

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Jun 19, 2012, 3:01:15 PM6/19/12
to London Hackspace

Don't worry about it.

Chris and Sol gave me another Reprap frame. Chris gave me a control
board that needs a little work, and he's running off a set of extruder
components, when he's got the Stratasys working. It needs the stepper
motors and the wires to hook it up.

I'll bring it back in tonight.

When we get it working, i'll need to print a set of Reprap parts for
my own machine.


On Jun 19, 7:24 pm, Clare Greenhalgh <claregreenha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I find it amazing that it just sat at the Space for so long, not working,
> with many other people there giving up their time to mend it and then when
> Chris has finally got it working really well you take it away. It may well
> have been yours and Sam's to start with, but after leaving such a large
> piece at the Space for so long, without a do not hack or any other form of
> ownership sticker I think this is very selfish.
>
> You may have put it together, but getting it working well has certainly
> been done by others.
>
> Have fun with it.
>
> Noko
>

Benjamin Blundell

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Jun 20, 2012, 4:15:49 AM6/20/12
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Hello Kal. I feel that I should explain. Originally, it was I who began work on it, with the help of Chris and Glen. I was under the impression it was the hackspace's as I'd seen it with the sticker on and had not seen either you or Sam working on it. Sam, on his return, did tell me about it but he'd been away for a while also. In addition, I had seen it and its parts left open in the workshop, not properly put away. I thought it was being prepared to be thrown out. I thought that was a waste. 

Im glad you've taken it and are back on it. I hope I havent ruined it for you.

B

tom

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Jun 20, 2012, 5:34:13 AM6/20/12
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can we at least get the steppers back off it?

Kal

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Jun 20, 2012, 7:00:05 AM6/20/12
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Noko, I certainly understand it looks quite selfish, but what you maybe don't know is that when I last left it in the space it had all the electronics working, was calibrated, with all the axis functioning perfectly well and the wiring neat and tidy. The only thing left was to add a working extruder and a heated bed and it would have been printing (and in case you wish, I have videos to proove this). If I remember correctly, at that stage Chris offered to get the extruder working, and so I left it with him/glen/sam. From that point on I had other commitments so couldn't provide oversight for the project.

In the time it was in the hackspace, many things were changed needlessly or damage/broken (out of carelessness, I assume), such as the wiring; several components on the brand new electronics which I bought and some of the mechanical components. All of which resulted in it being in disrepair. It is at this point that I assume Chris really started to put effort into making it functional and investing in parts for it(which is an issue I am going to resolve with him personally), and of course I appretiate that Chris made some good changes as well; like more powerfull steppers etc. (Tom, I will be sorting out what we do with the parts and ownership issues with Chris on Thursday, I've not just 'stolen' them and run away...)

Oni - Don't worry about it, I totally appretiate you wanted to move things forward, really it was my fault for not stepping in earlier before this got so complicated. I really hope you are still interested in rapid prototyping as I am, and that you don't feel like you wasted your time/effort on this reprap. Certainly I plan on contributing to the LHS's rapid prototyping capabilities once the issues around this particular machine are resolved and it'd be cool if you were part of that also.
 
Kal


On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 19:24:41 UTC+1, Noko wrote:
I find it amazing that it just sat at the Space for so long, not working, with many other people there giving up their time to mend it and then when Chris has finally got it working really well you take it away. It may well have been yours and Sam's to start with, but after leaving such a large piece at the Space for so long, without a do not hack or any other form of ownership sticker I think this is very selfish.

You may have put it together, but getting it working well has certainly been done by others.

Have fun with it.

Noko

Clare Greenhalgh

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Jun 20, 2012, 8:45:47 AM6/20/12
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I would say two words about it eve working properly - complete bollocks.

You can show me whatever videos you want, but others at the Space (Chris included) have agreed it never worked, and the amount of time and money people here have invested are HUGE.

You are selfish, especially when you refuse to admit that the people here got it working when you failed completely.

Noko

Russ Garrett

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Jun 20, 2012, 9:10:54 AM6/20/12
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On 20 June 2012 13:45, Clare Greenhalgh <claregr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would say two words about it eve working properly - complete bollocks.

There's no need for this abuse.

There is no doubt that the reprap was originally Sam and Kal's, and I
support their right to take it away. The question of compensation for
the work done on it while it was at the space is an issue between Kal
and the people who spent their time/money on it. I hope that can be
sorted out, but I don't really see why it requires an argument on the
mailing list.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Kal

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Jun 20, 2012, 9:19:02 AM6/20/12
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Noko,

Your ignorance on the subject is astounding, and your attitude repulsive.

I wonder if it's even worth uploading videos of it working as I stated, considering that you have come to your own conclusions without the evidence I can easily provide.

Seeing as you clearly lack the required competancy to deal with this sitiuation like an adult (you seem to resort to tossing insults/accusations) and really have very little to do with the project yourself;  I suggest that you refrain from commenting on this issue.

btw, thanks for the support Russ :), I am in the process of sorting this mess out.

Clare Greenhalgh

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Jun 20, 2012, 3:24:02 PM6/20/12
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And you also pick what you want to follow. All is on your head. I am simply expressing an opinion you do not want to support.
Have fun!  

Amran

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Jun 20, 2012, 4:16:03 PM6/20/12
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Noko, I certainly understand it looks quite selfish, but what you maybe don't know is that when I last left it in the space it had all the electronics working, was calibrated, with all the axis functioning perfectly well and the wiring neat and tidy. The only thing left was to add a working extruder and a heated bed and it would have been printing (and in case you wish, I have videos to proove this).
 
i can remember it being in this, working, state. i think i even helped you with the hot end a little only to see it consistently fail. 

at that point i think we both parted ways with the space

Glen

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Jun 22, 2012, 7:25:29 AM6/22/12
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Kal & Noko, you're both being asses.
Kal you're being pompous, the Reprap should have gone in the three week box as an abandoned project, there's no room for everyone to store something the size of a Reprap in the Workshop for a few months.
Noko, the drama lama is one of the reasons I don't go to the Space to work any more.

Oni, can I give you a set of Reprap parts?

Glen

Kal

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Jun 22, 2012, 8:51:32 AM6/22/12
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Glen,

Those insult are unwarented and extremely un-excellent,

If you had a problem with the reprap being in the space for so long, you more than anyone else, knew it was my( and samthetechies) project and had my personal contact details. However, instead of contacting me to voice your concerns, you descided (of your own accord) that it was ok to just change things on the reprap without notice and as you saw fit (the Z stepper wiring for example), which often resulted in careless/substandard work and even damage to parts that worked perfect well previously.

I cannot believe that you would condem a project as abandoned without thinking to even contact the owner of said project, especially when you personally know that owner. I certainly wouldn't treat other members of the space that way, what makes you feel that you can?

Kal

Billy

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Jun 22, 2012, 10:21:50 AM6/22/12
to London Hackspace

I'm finding the arguments in this thread tedious.

Kal, you have a functioning Reprap.

Could you print the printable parts for an extruder, please?

The hot end, we can make out of stock brass, like Chris did last
night.

The steppers we can order, and the wiring we can improvise from stock
components.

Instead of arguing, let's make another printer.

cynar

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Jun 22, 2012, 11:49:33 AM6/22/12
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Just an FYI. 

There are a load of us based in the Thames Valley area (just to the west/north-west of london) working on Repraps. We have just finished build round 1, 20 machines, 15 are now operational. 

We are just organising build round 2 now and it looks to be another 20 machines. The machine is a Prusa with a few improvements. The electronics are a custom designed Open Motion set that is a big improvement on the older electronics designs that had a habit of running components WELL out of spec.

If anyone is interested, come message us here:

Details of the design are found here:

Billy

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Jun 22, 2012, 5:08:30 PM6/22/12
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Just to clarify, before any other flaming starts;

The reasons that i find the arguments on this thread tedious is
because of the banality of the problem.

It all stems back to communication.

Kal lends a nice resource, which is an almost functional Reprap to the
space.

It then bounces back and forth between varying levels of functionality
as members with varying degree's of skill and knowledge add in their
tuppence worth. As there was only intermittent communication between
each of these people, sometimes they ended up dismantling things that
someone else had just built. Cue more arguments.

When it's finally functional then, after it running for a couple of
months, Kal wants it back, as quite rightly, it is still his machine
that he LOANED to the space.

What you may not know, is that Kal works for a start-up creating
different recipes for materials for engineering firms. He's provided
several different kinds of filament, saying "Try this one. Let us know
how it works..." Sure he's interested in the results, but we're
getting to take part in his beta-testing and we're getting the
opportunity to try new materials, provided by the people who came up
with them in the first place.

The Stratasys was having problems that were caused by the hot end of
the extruder being sized for the materials that they had in 1992, but
we're using materials developed in 2012. Different grades and flavours
of filament giving Chris the chance to get some great practical
experience in extruder construction and repair...

Kal, using his machine, that he loaned to the space, will now need to
do more testing on the filament recipes that he's creating. So, yes,
he needs his Reprap back. We'll probably have to help him extend and
re-build parts of it too, as the new materials with different
properties come out.

I vaguely remember some form of sticker on the machine (PH/DNH, can't
remember.) It didn't stay there long, as the reprap was being tweaked
and poked by enthusiastic hackers, including me. This lack of
communication via temporary stickers is one communication problem.

There was no documentation on the wiki, about the fact the reprap was
on loan, not a donation. There's another communication problem.

The "Too Many Cooks" problem that caused some of the other
functionality issues, is another aspect of the same communication
problem.

There's a number of us who have helped get it working. Clare's
reaction is understandable, as she sees someone walking off with what
she sees as a shared community resource. The fundamental dis-respect
that she sees for the effort that was put in by volunteers, is
possibly one of the things she feels most strongly about. ( Clare, If
i have got the wrong end of the stick, then please correct me.)

Dont get me wrong. I knew that the reprap i was working on was Kal's
and Sam's. When i was re-soldering the leads, i knew i was repairing
someone else's machine. The mini-lathe is the same. We put work into
it, to get the functionality we needed, and to learn how to do this
for ourselves. It is still Nigle's machine, and if he wants it back,
then it's his. Thank you for the loan of a fascinating tool.

If there are other people like Clare, who didn't realise that it was
loaned, that put work and effort into working on it, then they
shouldn't feel bad or pissed off about Kal reclaiming HIS reprap.

It is HIS machine. He paid for it, bought the parts, and initially set
it up for other people to use, when he did not need to do this.

If we did not communicate any of this effectively, then collectively
it is ALL our fault, that we don't communicate well.

Half of the things that are currently being grumbled about in the
space tidying, could probably just be improved by better
documentation, so other members can see the utility of the tools that
we share.

As for practical solutions, rather than un-necessary argument, there
is an almost-complete set of Mendel Version 1 parts, that Sam and Kal
printed, that were donated by them to the space.

There is another complete Prusa frame, that Sol and Chris gave me,
that i brought back into the space. I'll happily donate it, as it was
a gift to me in the first place. That way it's explicitly stated, it
will be the Hackspace's Reprap.

It needs the Nema 17 stepper motors, and it needs someone with a
subtle hand at SMT soldering to debug the control board that Chris
gave me. And as i asked earlier, it needs an extruder.

If the space will pay for the motors, and someone can fix the board,
and someone prints the extruder parts, we can make the rest of the
components out of stock materials that the hackspace already has
available.

I don't want another on-line argument or flame-war, I just want a
functioning reprap to play with.

Russ; would you or someone else please order the necessary motors?

Will anyone with skill in SMT soldering please look at the control
board? Chris can fill you in as to what needs doing.

Glen, Kal, or anyone else with a functioning reprap, would you please
print us the parts needed for the extruder?

We'll work on making the extrusion nozzles from scrap brass stock.

The wiring we've got already, as stock material.

Volunteers to help please shout... :D

Adrian Godwin

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Jun 22, 2012, 5:43:37 PM6/22/12
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On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:
>
> Will anyone with skill in SMT soldering please look at the control
> board? Chris can fill you in as to what needs doing.
>
> Glen, Kal, or anyone else with a functioning reprap, would you please
> print us the parts needed for the extruder?
>
> We'll work on making the extrusion nozzles from scrap brass stock.
>
> The wiring we've got already, as stock material.
>
> Volunteers to help please shout... :D

I'm happy to have a look at the control board.

-adrian

Billy

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Jun 22, 2012, 6:06:31 PM6/22/12
to London Hackspace

The parts are boxed and bagged on the table next to the Stratasys.
I'll start setting them up tonight, and i'll set the board where you
can find it.

Please shout Chris and he'll tell you what the symptoms are.

phil jones

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Jun 23, 2012, 1:28:32 AM6/23/12
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Thanks Billy,

that's some excellent perspective giving.

phil

Eugene Nadyrshin

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Jun 23, 2012, 9:25:38 AM6/23/12
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Billy let me know if you are running for Parliment, I'll vote for you :D

Mentar

Daniel Sikar

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Jun 23, 2012, 11:56:02 AM6/23/12
to London Hackspace
> print us the parts needed for the extruder?
Billy - Send me the .stl (all parts on a single print bed if possible)
and I'll print the LHS a set.
Kal - I'm developing an extruder for grass trimmer filament, higher
melting point but cheaper than ABS/PLA. Will keep you posted.
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