[Trustee] Stefan Sabo banned for 12 months.

[Henry Sands]

Grievance procedure update - Stefan Sabo banned for 12 months

Dear Members,

We regretfully inform you that Stefan Sabo has been banned from London Hackspace for a period of 12 months, during this time he will not be able to access the premises, post on the London Hackspace mailing list or join any of the IRC channels maintained by London Hackspace.

The ban will start at 1:00am on Thursday the 22nd of December 2016.

We didn't take this decision lightly, and we expect that some of you will have questions. The remainder of this email outlines our reasons for finally agreeing on this unfortunate ban.

<<Why do we have these rules?>>

We rely on all members to be cooperative, communicative, and proactive in managing our shared space. The London Hackspace is not supposed to be a place where a small number of people have to police other members' actions, but instead a place where members can be trusted to take charge themselves. This only works when all our members agree to a basic level of appropriate behavior which is how our rules were formed. You can find them here:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules

<<What did Stefan do?>>

• Repeatedly sleeping in the space despite numerous warnings stating it was not acceptable
• Unacceptable behavior on the mailing list and IRC channels
• Using the London Hackspace address for business and/or personal financial actions and letting those actions fall into a state of disrepute.

We believe these actions constitute an egregious violation of rule 6 of the hackspace rules i.e treating the space like your home.

<<How did this escalate to a ban?>>

Our grievance procedure is a three strike system, which you can read more about here:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure/Warnings_Issued

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure/Bans_Issued

Stefan has previously received formal warnings on 2016/01/12 and 2016/03/13 for repeatedly sleeping in the space despite previous informal warnings.

We have also issued Stefan with a "final informal warning" on two occasions since this for similar behavior and misuse of the hackspace mailing list.

Regards,

Henry Sands.

On behalf of the London Hackspace Trustees.

[Patrick Dent]

I personally think the trustees are talking out of their collected arses.

Yes he has been known to nod off, but so have other members who have not been reprimanded in any way. He has been making a concerted effort to not be in the space if he's that tired recently.

Secondly,what was his unacceptable behaviour, apart from his essays in broken English? Most of what he said raised important points and he's voluntarily blocked his own access so as not to do it again any time soon.

Thirdly, using hackspace as a business address. Have you seen the amount of crap that regularly piles up on our mailbox under this heading?

I think the board are just having a purge of anyone they don't currently like.

[Mentar .]

Personally I think the reason you say that is because you don't like following rules either, as you stated "it's not conducive to good rule-abiding, but it's how I often work".

This isn't trustees purging anyone, it's just them actually holding people to account and I hope this continues.

Mentar

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[David Dorward]

On 20 Dec 2016, at 19:07, Patrick Dent wrote:

Thirdly, using hackspace as a business address. Have you seen the amount of crap that regularly piles up on our mailbox under this heading?

Read to the end of the sentence:

Using the London Hackspace address for business and/or personal financial actions and letting those actions fall into a state of disrepute

I would imagine this could lead to problems such as bailiffs turning up at the Hackspace. I had enough fun when the prior occupant of my flat didn’t inform their creditors that they had changed address. I wouldn’t want to deal with that sort of problem in a shared space. Do we still have a problem with people letting non-members in without checking just because they pressed the buzzer?

[Lex Robinson]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:07 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the board are just having a purge of anyone they don't currently like.

First they came for the sleepers and I did not speak out -

Because I had a house

Then they came for the people who didn't bother to spell check their mailing list posts and I did not speak out -

Because I had gone to school 

Then they came for the people who used the hackspace as their registered address and I did not speak out -

Because the space is not my home

Then the space was a bit better tbh

[Luca Torrente]

Just out of curiosity... did he "nod off" 30 min on his laptop or did he crashed on the sofa at night? 

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[JJ]

>"Thirdly, using hackspace as a business address. Have you seen the amount of crap that regularly piles up on our mailbox under this heading?"

There's a world of difference between the junk mail that follows having an order from CPC/RS/Maplin/Screwfix delivered to the space and giving the address to your bank/HMRC/DVLA/etc. as your place of residence.

[Patrick Dent]

He doesn't spell check / grammar check his posts because he's Czech and his fluency in English is not perfect so he often can't see that anything is wrong. I'm British and I bugger mine up sometimes! (...although not to that extent)

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[Lex Robinson]

Do the Czechs not have proof reading in their culture?

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[Patrick Dent]

Not in English they don't. If I tried to write a mailing list post in French, I think my grammatical errors would be far worse  due to my lack of any knowledge of the mistakes I was making.

On 20 Dec 2016 19:39, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do the Czechs not have proof reading in their culture?

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:36 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

He doesn't spell check / grammar check his posts because he's Czech and his fluency in English is not perfect so he often can't see that anything is wrong. I'm British and I bugger mine up sometimes! (...although not to that extent)

On 20 Dec 2016 19:33, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:07 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the board are just having a purge of anyone they don't currently like.

First they came for the sleepers and I did not speak out -

Because I had a house

Then they came for the people who didn't bother to spell check their mailing list posts and I did not speak out -

Because I had gone to school 

Then they came for the people who used the hackspace as their registered address and I did not speak out -

Because the space is not my home

Then the space was a bit better tbh

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[Lex Robinson]

But you would, I assume, read through your post at least once to make sure what you had posted made sense to your limited ability (and didn't have random unrelated English words in it?)

Or would you just type whatever and post it?

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:42 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not in English they don't. If I tried to write a mailing list post in French, I think my grammatical errors would be far worse  due to my lack of any knowledge of the mistakes I was making.

On 20 Dec 2016 19:39, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do the Czechs not have proof reading in their culture?

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:36 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

He doesn't spell check / grammar check his posts because he's Czech and his fluency in English is not perfect so he often can't see that anything is wrong. I'm British and I bugger mine up sometimes! (...although not to that extent)

On 20 Dec 2016 19:33, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:07 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the board are just having a purge of anyone they don't currently like.

First they came for the sleepers and I did not speak out -

Because I had a house

Then they came for the people who didn't bother to spell check their mailing list posts and I did not speak out -

Because I had gone to school 

Then they came for the people who used the hackspace as their registered address and I did not speak out -

Because the space is not my home

Then the space was a bit better tbh

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[Tom Sands]

I think it was less his spelling and grammar and more his content and tone, which would be the same if he was fluent in English.

Anyone who is given 6 warnings and treats the community with contempt by refusing to change their attitude doesn't deserve to be part of that community.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 19:42:30 UTC, Patrick Dent wrote:

Not in English they don't. If I tried to write a mailing list post in French, I think my grammatical errors would be far worse  due to my lack of any knowledge of the mistakes I was making.

On 20 Dec 2016 19:39, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do the Czechs not have proof reading in their culture?

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:36 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

He doesn't spell check / grammar check his posts because he's Czech and his fluency in English is not perfect so he often can't see that anything is wrong. I'm British and I bugger mine up sometimes! (...although not to that extent)

On 20 Dec 2016 19:33, "Lex Robinson" <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, 19:07 Patrick Dent, <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the board are just having a purge of anyone they don't currently like.

First they came for the sleepers and I did not speak out -

Because I had a house

Then they came for the people who didn't bother to spell check their mailing list posts and I did not speak out -

Because I had gone to school 

Then they came for the people who used the hackspace as their registered address and I did not speak out -

Because the space is not my home

Then the space was a bit better tbh

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[Tim Reynolds]

Nice one. This has been a long time coming. I hope there are more warnings and bans in the pipeline. 

[Patrick Dent]

He nodded off at his laptop a few times, trying to get some work done very late after his work shift.

In the last few weeks he has been purposely sending himself out of the space as soon as he starts nodding off to forestall the very action that has now occurred against him.

On 20 Dec 2016 19:34, "Luca Torrente" <lucator...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just out of curiosity... did he "nod off" 30 min on his laptop or did he crashed on the sofa at night? 

.

[Patrick Dent]

Tim, you forgot to add "*rubs hands and cackles ominously*".

[Tim Reynolds]

I thought that was obvious. 

[Henry Sands]

Can we please not have a slap fight on a public mailing list that is sent out to over 3000 people.

Regards,

Henry

*wearing his big trustee boots*

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 20:04:36 UTC, Tim Reynolds wrote:

I thought that was obvious. 

On 20 Dec 2016, at 20:01, Patrick Dent <kantp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tim, you forgot to add "*rubs hands and cackles ominously*".

On 20 Dec 2016 19:58, "Tim Reynolds" <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:

Nice one. This has been a long time coming. I hope there are more warnings and bans in the pipeline. 

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[Patrick Dent]

*mumbles, stares at shoes* "He started it, Sir".

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[Tom Sands]

I believe the disparity between the "actual" members and the mailing list posters isn't as wide as you think it is, as an example (nearly) everybody who has posted in this thread I have personally seen at the hackspace in the last month or two.

Us mailing list posters have genuine concerns too, the biggest in my case being the hackspace turning into a hostel and wifi cafe for those who want to do little more than sit somewhere warm and browse facebook, which has driven away of us mailing list posters from turning up to the space more frequently and I'm sure has had an effect on both new membership and membership retention.

On Wednesday, 21 December 2016 11:02:13 UTC, Alex McConnachie wrote:

treats the community with contempt

I've noticed a pattern of people who are regulars at the space who have genuine concerns about the running of the space being silenced and banned and given all sorts of grief. Yes they don't have much tact doing it but it doesn't make much sense to say they have more contempt for the community than many of you on the mailing list whom I never see in person  at the space and thus don't really regard as part of the community. This is London HackSPACE not London HackMailingList
 
Personally I see the hackspace going down the toilet in the long run,in part due to the paralysis caused by lack of addressing actual issues. Seeing what happens to those who do mention anything untoward I'll just sit back and let it happen so you won't see my ass getting banned :-)

[Tim Reynolds]

Stopping by to let us know that posting on the mailing list makes us less worthy members, gotcha. 

Alex I may very well have you confused with someone else - are you doing a project for a production company at the moment? 

On 21 Dec 2016, at 11:02, Alex McConnachie <mcconn...@gmail.com> wrote:

treats the community with contempt

I've noticed a pattern of people who are regulars at the space who have genuine concerns about the running of the space being silenced and banned and given all sorts of grief. Yes they don't have much tact doing it but it doesn't make much sense to say they have more contempt for the community than many of you on the mailing list whom I never see in person  at the space and thus don't really regard as part of the community. This is London HackSPACE not London HackMailingList
 
Personally I see the hackspace going down the toilet in the long run,in part due to the paralysis caused by lack of addressing actual issues. Seeing what happens to those who do mention anything untoward I'll just sit back and let it happen so you won't see my ass getting banned :-)

[Paddy Duncan]

As Tom rightly points out, most of those posting are regulars, however:

It’s probably worth mentioning that those who you do not regard as part of the community, are (roughly ish) paying 90% of our outgoings.

Also, anyone is more than welcome to advise the Trustees about any of the actual issues to which you refer and we will look into addressing them.

Endlessly battering us with bullshit and conspiracy theories (I’m not referring to you here) will not achieve much. Add endlessly ignoring rules, using the premises as a disposable address for potential fraud, claiming that only one’s own fantastical version of events is true and then yes you might end up getting banned.

You Alex will not get banned because you are a reasonable person who understands where the lines are. If you would care to pass on anything regarding the ‘actual issues’ we are all ears, but keeping quiet will absolutely not fix anything. Also note that  being in the space regularly does not enlighten you to everything that goes on. You only need to see the reaction of a newly appointed Trustee when given access to the history. I highly recommend you speak to them, they’re regulars at the space.

Paddy

 

From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex McConnachie
Sent: 21 December 2016 11:02
To: London Hackspace <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] [Trustee] Stefan Sabo banned for 12 months.

 

treats the community with contempt

I've noticed a pattern of people who are regulars at the space who have genuine concerns about the running of the space being silenced and banned and given all sorts of grief. Yes they don't have much tact doing it but it doesn't make much sense to say they have more contempt for the community than many of you on the mailing list whom I never see in person  at the space and thus don't really regard as part of the community. This is London HackSPACE not London HackMailingList
 
Personally I see the hackspace going down the toilet in the long run,in part due to the paralysis caused by lack of addressing actual issues. Seeing what happens to those who do mention anything untoward I'll just sit back and let it happen so you won't see my ass getting banned :-)

[Mentar .]

Alex you should dig more into how the hackspace was started, it was a community first and a physical place second. It's unfortunate that lately it has been taken over by loudmouths who scream about all that is wrong with the hackspace while making the hackspace an unwelcoming place and even scaring away long term members who have been instrumental in building out the physical and the social aspects of the hackspace.

What I see the trustees doing here is address the problem and that's a good thing.

I've spoken to you a few times and I know your heart is in the right place, can I ask you to keep an open mind and speak to all the parties involved (including the trustees) and I'm sure you'll realise that there are no conspiracy theories, clique groups etc etc.

Cheers

Mentar

On 21 December 2016 at 11:02, Alex McConnachie <mcconn...@gmail.com> wrote:

treats the community with contempt

I've noticed a pattern of people who are regulars at the space who have genuine concerns about the running of the space being silenced and banned and given all sorts of grief. Yes they don't have much tact doing it but it doesn't make much sense to say they have more contempt for the community than many of you on the mailing list whom I never see in person  at the space and thus don't really regard as part of the community. This is London HackSPACE not London HackMailingList
 
Personally I see the hackspace going down the toilet in the long run,in part due to the paralysis caused by lack of addressing actual issues. Seeing what happens to those who do mention anything untoward I'll just sit back and let it happen so you won't see my ass getting banned :-)

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[Samb1]

I think trying to make this seem like a crackdown on criticism is a bit of a 'straw man'.

Sleeping at the space is not OK and for Stefan it's been more than just occasional brief nodding off as some try to portray and has been an issue off and on for about a year now. 

Registering personal debts to our address for bank accounts and phone contracts is in no way acceptable and conflating that action with receiving general post and parcels from suppliers is quite ludicrous.

Further to that anyone else using the hackspace business address for such things as registering personal debts and other things such as registering vehicles with the DVSA (DVLA) or HMRC is obviously using the place as their home, that's blatantly not acceptable and other cases will also be looked into and dealt with appropriately.

Despite what Stefan and others may think this is nothing personal against him, he had already been given several warnings and yet continued to act in the same way leaving us with very few options.

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:02:13 AM UTC, Alex McConnachie wrote:

treats the community with contempt

[David Murphy]

Every action has been consistent with the rules.
There is nothing wrong with this ban I can point to.
Stefan was clearly being an ass in these things.

but it's like when a string of people writing critical articles of the local traffic cops suddenly start getting pulled over 5 times a week even if every single time there's a video of the traffic violation and every time it's indisputable that they broke rules.

it's made me quite uncomfortable with what's been happening lately.

Mainly in what I've found out is being blocked from the list through word of mouth. 
From the last ban thread "A S" showed me a post he tried to make which was blocked. I didn't agree with a lot of it but it wasn't block-worthy, was thought out, coherent and should absolutely have been allowed given that Stefans ramblings were allowed through moderation.

He was in the space with a print out of it a few days later and pinned it up when he was leaving (it was quickly removed from the board by someone.)

I believe he's quit the space now and even his post explaining his reasons for quitting was apparently blocked.

I don't know if it's simply that some new people have been given mailing list moderation powers but there's someone who's acting the ejit.

I also don't like the atmosphere that's been developing. I've been sitting in the space and been hearing jokes along the lines of "look what X just posted on the list, looks like *someone* is about get a 'random screening' " an assumption has developed that if you are loudly critical then

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[Tim Reynolds]

There is too much mailing list moderation and it is only feeding paranoia. Give people enough rope. There is a final email from Stefan that has been blocked and is being shared piecemeal on IRC by trustees. 

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[Tim Reynolds]

Alex, I've had someone confirm that you are who I thought.

I sat for over an hour with another member (who is now one of those dastardly trustees) and advised you on your current project and what to expect from clients in that sector. I'm sad to hear you don't consider me a proper member as I post on the mailing list. 

[Samb1]

OK, This was apparently the response message from Stefan dropped from the moderation queue.

Please remain civil in any following responses.

**********************

Dear Trustees,

there is partially TRUE of your observation,  but not at all.

Please allow me explain some things which at your eyes lead to my BAN.

YES, IT'S TRUE as I have delivered CORRESPONDENCE TO HACKSPACE ADDRESS.

Like general membership do it, I receive there letters, packages and other correspondence. 

It's long term consensus as member could do this.

It is NOT VIOLATION OF RULE 6 at all, at any view. 

You could take action like this against minimum 20 regular members and 2-3 non members only because they use HackSpace as their mail box.

Are you really mean this seriously?

Are you taking also action against whole other members who receive their post and package to HackSpace?

Are you taking action against recently registered LTD company, which from July 2016 using HackSpace address as REGISTERED company address?

I guess not...

Why yo going to take action against me? Where is connection between receive correspondence at space and violation rule 6?

I not agree with this point.

Yes, it's true as I have conflict with least of one debt collection agency, which at any case can't have nothing to do with HackSpace.

Even, they come into hackspace, there is common sense, as they can't at any situation touch nothing at possession of HackSpace or any other member. 

There is no any way to means, as they could mean, as it's my home or something else. It is commercial building with simply and clear use of.

I can't agree with this part of your meanwhile leading to my ban at all.

Yes, it's TRUE as I was at space yesterday whole day, and working on my things.

Yes, it's true as I come to be very sleepy, and very very tired. Immediately, at 23:45 when I explore it,   I follow my common sense and pack my stuff into box and go out of hackspace. It take aprox 20 minutes, within this I also help another member with his forgotten bag to secure it. It means, as soon as possible I explore as I am not able continue on my projects, I get necessary action and leave without any delay or trying to discuss about it.

After few hours of sleeping, I came back to hackspace continue on my things fresh.

It's exactly what you ask to me to do at past. If I explore as I can't continue at my projects due tired / sleepy, need break down my work and come later fresh.

I exactly follow this, perhaps, in meantime I was informed, as my behaviour was good at this.

It's very interesting as you do not take any action against our "winter lodger" which sleeping at space hours daily, and which was several times woken up by members (I personally was witness when it seen impossible to woken up him, but after some member use fire extinguisher from laser cutter to make silly noise/sound he finnaly woken up).

I understand as Samantha personally don't like me, and I understand as she initiate this part of my ban this time.

I am afraid, I can't comply with personal unlike from one of you at level, which Samantha provide last time when I was at space on OpenEvening. 

And also, I understand as my public support for Scooby can't be forgotten.

For whole combination of this, I still can't comply with your decision and action.

Grievance procedure can't be abused like this.

Grievance procedure can't be used to maintain personal hate of one particular person.

I can't be banned for 2 of 3 points, which you wrote as reason for my ban, simply for:

- it's wrong interpretation of situation. Receive correspondence haven't nothing with abuse of rule 6.

- I haven't receive first and second warning for particular 2 reasons used for my ban, what is necessary to continue at grievance procedure and raise it to lead to ban.

About 3rd point there is wrong accusation and wrong interpretation of situation.

I do everything to avoid sleeping at space at all. And I do my best also yesterday late evening, when I immediately leave from HackSpace after I explore as I am unable continue at my work due so much tired.

This part also I taken as personal revenge from Samantha. It's unacceptable behaviour from trustee.

For all this reasons I calling to cancel my ban, because there was abuse Grievance procedure.

If you will hold on this decision, I will arrange pick up my personal things from space.

I will probably need more then obvious 14 days to take out my project box (with valid storage request) because at my home (studio 24,5 m2) I can't imagine to keep it, and I am not sure if I will be able arrange more space at commercial storage which I using anyway, before my ban will start. I will work closely with one or two of you to do it smoothly as possible.

However, as obvious, when my storage request finish, I have plan to give away part of unused parts to other members. Simply I will do it little bit more quickly.

I believe, as your personal conscience will allow you to have Merry Christmas and Happy new ye, after this abuse.

I now understand why more and more members decide stop their membership. 

I always do my best to take care about basic things at space, even more and more people told me, as I am mad. It was useful one year at space, when I meet lot of interesting people there.

I will come to say bye bye to some of them before my ban take action.

I guess, I still could do it.

I meet also people, who behaving on other side. It's life. I believe, as life will treat them for their acts.

At all, it was very nice year with interesting people. And I thank to them.

*****************************

[Mark Steward]

For the record, it was not being shared piecemeal: there was a discussion about whether it would have been worth allowing through in order to share Stefan's own admissions. We're usually a lot more careful about allowing through messages from people who are banned, and my view is that it was right to drop this one.

Mark

[Charles Yarnold]

Just to clarify, by drop, do you mean drop it from being published, or drop it into the mailing list?

[Tim Reynolds]

12:21:38 <samb1> he admitted to the debts stuff and nodding off nasically
12:21:40 <samb1> basically
12:24:11 <samb1> but the usual babble and everyone is bad too stuff
12:28:29 <@solexious> also he seems to think you need to have 3 warnings for the same thing to be banned
12:29:41 <samb1> I explicitly explained to him in person that was not the case and he ackwoledged it after he had his final informal , so that's bs
12:30:04 <samb1> his final final informal
12:33:00 <@TimRTerrible> Having all of this relayed secondhand isn't going to convince the people who need it.
12:37:51 <@russss> I don't think that email is a smoking gun, it's just a long rant
12:51:05 <samb1> russss: maybe you read a different email to me, seemed smoking gun in the sense that he admits using the hackspace address for his personal debts

By being shared piecemeal I mean parts of it were being paraphrased by those that had read it. If you weren't in #london-hack-space this afternoon you wouldn't know any of this. Dropping the email was bad enough, but then people who had read it sharing parts of it in the IRC channel does nothing but fuel the conspiracy theories.

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[Alex McConnachie]

I retract my comment and will wind my neck in.

As you can understand I am just a little frustrated when I see people I know walk away from the space due how things have gone down at times (the recent bans not being the only example) Such incidents don't leave me in the clearest frame of mind

[Pingless]

On Wednesday, 21 December 2016 13:20:53 UTC, David wrote:

From the last ban thread "A S" showed me a post he tried to make which was blocked. I didn't agree with a lot of it but it wasn't block-worthy, was thought out, coherent and should absolutely have been allowed given that Stefans ramblings were allowed through moderation. 

I saw the post. It was basically saying "There is a conspiracy, I have no proof, but here's what the proof would look like if it existed."

It was nothing more than shit-stirring, agitation and paranoid rambling, and added no value at all to the conversation. I completely agree with the decision to moderate that message.

I would like to take the opportunity to point out that there have been two bans. Two. Not 100, not 50, not even a whole clique. Two. And both those people have done things that are indisputably unexcellent.

Please take a step back and re-evaluate the scope, based on this (possibly new) information. It's not a "swathe" of bannings, not a "banwave." It's two bans. Nobody is being persecuted.

[Mark Steward]

Drop it from being published. It's antagonistic and shouty, targets Sam in particular with false claims, and really does nothing to help Stefan himself. Sending it to the list would have benefited nobody.

(This is another thing that will be helped by Discourse - we can leave the post on the system, but flag it as problematic at the same time.)

Mark

[tgreer]

Was there a concensus on that? Or did you decide to action the dropping of it on your own?

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[Pingless]

I would like to take the opportunity to point out that there have been two bans. Two. Not 100, not 50, not even a whole clique. Two. And both those people have done things that are indisputably unexcellent.

Please take a step back and re-evaluate the scope, based on this (possibly new) information. It's not a "swathe" of bannings, not a "banwave." It's two bans. Nobody is being persecuted.

Sorry, hit send too early.

The thing is that bans are such an unusual thing at LHS, because we really do try our hardest to resolve conflicts. The entire system is created to make it as hard as possible for trustees to abuse the system; nobody even considered that the problem might be members, which is why it's so damn hard to get rid of someone who's really toxic (see Peter Meadows).

Bans are very rare, and this event looks like a huge deal because we've had two in short succession. However, these two are unrelated and only look connected because Stefan was being vocal about Scooby's ban. His ban was a long time coming (IIRC he had 7 informal warnings). In any system, even low-probability events are going to occur close to each other eventually. This is what happened, and (like most random events) looks much more orchestrated after the fact.

[David Murphy]

Quick question: from the op I assumed he'd registered a ltd company at the spaces address or similar but i've been told that he ordered a sim card which was delivered to the space but not as a billing address and the mobile company went after the address the sim was posted to.

[tgreer]

Been told by who? Can we cut the bs, and get a clear answer from the trustees? 

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[Mark Steward]

I didn't drop it (as I mentioned on IRC at the time), and we drop non-spam emails so rarely that it's always obvious why the decision's been made.

Mark

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[Tim Reynolds]

Thanks for posting this, Sam.

It shows the ban was absolutely needed.

[Henry Sands]

I dropped the email after a brief discussion with the other trustees.

Reasons where later given to post it, some of which I don't agree with but the general consensus was that it should be shown so I agree with it being posted.

Henry.

[Adrian Godwin]

There are two points that ought to be addressed. Maybe there are already are ?

1. Someone used the hackspace address for a limited company in July.

2. Someone is regularly sleeping in the space.

Neither of these let Stefan off the hook (though I do think his debt error is mitigated if the phone company is doing it wrong .. perhaps that's a reason to not permit the space to be used for personal mail) but they should be investigated if true and officially corrected if not.

[Paddy Duncan]

They are.

 

From: london-h...@googlegroups.com [mailto:london-h...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Godwin
Sent: 21 December 2016 16:06
To: london-hack-space <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] [Trustee] Stefan Sabo banned for 12 months.

 

There are two points that ought to be addressed. Maybe there are already are ?

[Dave Mansfield]

When people ask, Stefan has always refused to provide details about claims of other sleepers to the trustees.

If they don't have the details, what is there to investigate?

[Adrian Godwin]

I would expect other people to be aware of it. But yes, if Stefan's the only witness and refuses to provide more details, there isn't anything that can be done. So he can hardly complain that no action has been taken.

However, Paddy says they're being addressed. No need for further pointless supposition.

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[Patrick Dent]

I have seen a few sleepers but I'm very bad with names (if i ever asked) so am of little help with that particular issue unfortunately.

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[Adrian Godwin]

Identify a time and place, then. It much reduces the amount of work involved in searching for CCTV images.

[Samb1]

Just to reply re the phone sim issue. I'm aware he's receiving regular mail from the phone company . However this also relates to other personal debts connected to his name at our address for which debt collectors are now sending letters.

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 4:06:13 PM UTC, Adrian Godwin wrote:

There are two points that ought to be addressed. Maybe there are already are ?

1. Someone used the hackspace address for a limited company in July.

2. Someone is regularly sleeping in the space.

Neither of these let Stefan off the hook (though I do think his debt error is mitigated if the phone company is doing it wrong .. perhaps that's a reason to not permit the space to be used for personal mail) but they should be investigated if true and officially corrected if not.

[David Murphy]

if it was just a single case of a phone company going after the wrong address then I'd think it was being unfair but if there's others then that seems completely fair.

[Andy Focallocal]

agreed. it also seems like it was a reluctant banning given the number of previous opportunities to do so which resulted in informal warnings.

i'm very sad to see him go as he did put a lot of energy into the community. 

[Stefan Sabo]

There is another point, which need to be answered.

Have trustees poverty to RETAIN, perhaps open Members correspondence?
Why they done this at my case?
Why come this selectable access? Because need support to my ban?

Open others correspondence is at this country criminal offence.
And, on top, if they done it, they have still need to give it to me or inform me about reason why don't made it.


I going more deeply to problem...

It's true, as EE could have LHS Address as postal address (not as registered address).

My SPECULATION on it is, as someone there make mistake and send this address as "connected address" to credit file?


Because debt collection, which we fighting long time about subject of it, can't have LHS Address at any case, even it come, without my knowledge, to credit file.
Next update of my credit file is within few days, I will check it out.
But I repeat, as I don't abuse rule 6 this way.

Disclaimer: This post was published at 6PM 21/12/2016 BEFORE my ban take action. Even I don't want contribute on ML anymore after last conflict, when I inform trustees about it at 11:19 AM and they issue my Warning same day after 9 PM even only like poverty showing. I m not going anymore to public debate about this, I will solve this issue with Trustees and of not with police, because Grievance procedure can't go over UK LAW and at this time it's gone...

P.s: I am not going excuse self about sleeping.
It's angle of view which consensus are impossible. This part of my ban should be untouched, it's Trustees decision and if they hold this, they can't do nothing with it. Is only interesting, as more abusers ate still untouched, or was on silent accepted efejbforn6 months lodging at space without any one warning at the past.

[David Dorward]

On 21 Dec 2016, at 18:03, Stefan Sabo wrote:

> Open others correspondence is at this country criminal offence.

Only if done to said others detriment.

https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/12/can-you-open-someone-elses-mail/

[Stefan Sabo]

E12 is my old address at UK, up to 1/6/2015

I joined LHS 16/11/2015

SOME stupid monkey at EE send my address to one of three main credit file companies, but this is signed as PREVIOUS ADDRESS...

It's simply impossible to be true, because I joined E12 address 4/2/2014 and have registration for vote there from May 2014

It should be means as I used LHS Address BEFORE 2/2014, means, more then 21 months before I joined LHS.

I get knowledge about LHS ONE WEEK BEFORE I JOINED...

I checked all correspondence address everywhere, and even I have used it for few things, only at one place is postcode at wrong format, instead E2 9DY is there E2 9dy with lower case last two characters. And, surprise, it's at EE file, where is this address used for one particular delivery as delivery / correspondence address..

From this source, it was published deliberately at 1 od 3 credit references agencies.

And folks, from debt collection company need to take this address and start spam it with their letters while it was new address for them.
Doesn't matter, as in case, we fighting about object of this debt, which is irrelevant for LHS.

DOES MEAN, as even I don't make nothing wrong I was accused by trustees and baned for something g, which is out my control.

If they inform me, I can check it and ask particular credit agency to make correction and delete this from my file, while it is not true.

Instead this, they act unlawful and hold my letter(s), which was opened and information from it was used against me.

Unlawful evidence can't be used at UK LAW.

QUESTIONS:

WHY they do not make same with Ltd company (letters was at mailbox untouched yesterday) which use recently LHS Address?

Why they do not act same (hold and open letters) at other people case (there was couple of letters from HMRC (don't count new directors) yesterday at mailbox)

Why they don't make same with Alandra Ltd?!?

THEY MAKE IT ONLY AT MY PARTICULAR PERSON.

Why?

This answer will be stayed unanswered for while.

It nothing change their unlawful steps and it can't excuse it...

[Stefan Sabo]

[Lex Robinson]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016, 21:14 Stefan Sabo, <stefan.do...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why they don't make same with Alandra Ltd?!?

IIRC Alandra is the carpet wholesale company that owned the building before we moved in.

[Nigel Worsley]

> IIRC Alandra is the carpet wholesale company that owned the building before
> we moved in.

They sold "Wholesale fashion, jewellery and cosmetics" according to
the remnants of their sign over the door.

Nigle

[JJ]

Debt collectors will use any means to collect a debt.  They usually buy debts for a small percentage and use a scattergun approach to collecting.  My late father was harassed by a collection agency for no other reason that the name of his block of flats in west London was XXXXX Lodge and they had a debt for someone in XXXXX Street in south London, and he lived in flat 1.  Their business plan includes unrelated people paying up just to stop the harassment.

But back on topic this has doubtless wasted a huge amount of the trustees valuable and finite time, so surely a hard and fast rule needs to be made that the hackspace may not be used as either a business or private address other than for delivery of project-related supplies (and official hackspace correspondence)..

[Lewis]

As someone who is very much on the periphery of the Hackspace community even from being a member for many years and using the space quite a lot I actually feel quite supportive of this decision. I follow the mailing list for comments of tools and conversations on projects and feel that since Stefan has been involved in a lot of them, they change very quickly from a proactive conversation about getting stuff done and progressing the space to a much more negative and off-topic one. In my opinion, mostly unnecessarily. I know of 2 people that do not use Hackspace anymore, mainly because of this behaviour, stating that is has "become a place I don't want to be", I can agree to some extent.

I don't think that this kind of name and shame is the right thing to do but I also feel that it has got to the point that it is the first of many necessary steps to bring this place back to somewhere we all want to be, and can feel comfortable to talk in a positive way.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 18:12:10 UTC, Henry Sands wrote:

Grievance procedure update - Stefan Sabo banned for 12 months

Dear Members,

We regretfully inform you that Stefan Sabo has been banned from London Hackspace for a period of 12 months, during this time he will not be able to access the premises, post on the London Hackspace mailing list or join any of the IRC channels maintained by London Hackspace.

The ban will start at 1:00am on Thursday the 22nd of December 2016.

We didn't take this decision lightly, and we expect that some of you will have questions. The remainder of this email outlines our reasons for finally agreeing on this unfortunate ban.

<<Why do we have these rules?>>

We rely on all members to be cooperative, communicative, and proactive in managing our shared space. The London Hackspace is not supposed to be a place where a small number of people have to police other members' actions, but instead a place where members can be trusted to take charge themselves. This only works when all our members agree to a basic level of appropriate behavior which is how our rules were formed. You can find them here:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules

<<What did Stefan do?>>

• Repeatedly sleeping in the space despite numerous warnings stating it was not acceptable
• Unacceptable behavior on the mailing list and IRC channels
• Using the London Hackspace address for business and/or personal financial actions and letting those actions fall into a state of disrepute.

We believe these actions constitute an egregious violation of rule 6 of the hackspace rules i.e treating the space like your home.

<<How did this escalate to a ban?>>

Our grievance procedure is a three strike system, which you can read more about here:

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure/Warnings_Issued

https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Grievance_Procedure/Bans_Issued

Stefan has previously received formal warnings on 2016/01/12 and 2016/03/13 for repeatedly sleeping in the space despite previous informal warnings.

We have also issued Stefan with a "final informal warning" on two occasions since this for similar behavior and misuse of the hackspace mailing list.

Regards,

Henry Sands.

On behalf of the London Hackspace Trustees.