Supporting Lojbanic babies.
Robin Lee Powell
I have recently had the pleasure to witness the birth of my two
amazing girl infants.
The mother is permitting me (it was a requirement of my helping her
have kids, actually) to natter at them in Lojban, with the intention
of them learning it as a language in the usual way (i.e. by having
it around, rather than by explicit teaching). This will be a bit
wonky as I'm the only person in the household who speaks it, but
it'll be interesting, at least.
Now, having said that, while I'm pretty good with the language, I
have the same sorts of problems as everybody else: I get stuck
saying things because I don't have the vocabulary or because of lack
of idiom.
This sort of thing takes a fair bit of effort to overcome (I've been
known to spend multiple hours creating a new word, for example), and
I don't have a lot of spare effort available, because, as previously
mentioned, I'm *raising infant twins*. This limits my available
time. Pretty extremely.
It is likely that the Lojban community has some pretty strong
interest in helping out with this project. :)
So, if you'd like to help, here's what I'd like:
1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with vocab/idiom
issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post here (perhaps
with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I tried to say "why is
your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so, and y'all figure it
out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone emails me directly
with the result. Knowing that there's a pool of people willing to
help there would be lovely.
2. Right now my sleep schedule has been modified to accomodate the
household's needs, and this is likely to last for a few weeks. In
particular, I have some dead time between about midnight and about
06:00 US/Pacific time. People being around to chat with in Lojban
would be lovely. Ideally, be on IRC and then we'll skype. I don't
necessarily need people to do any talking, I just need more practice
at emitting at full speed. If the other person understands me, so
much the better. :)
3. The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting. Would you
be interested in hearing it, in Lojban? I was thinking of doing it
on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would someone be
willing to turn it into something readable? I would need a variety
of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and "labour contraction"
and "cervical dilation". fu'ivla seem like decent choices there.
Or, hell, cmevla. We don't use cmevla enough for highly technical
things around here.
I think that's it.
-Robin
--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
Arnt Richard Johansen
>
> 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with vocab/idiom
> issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post here (perhaps
> with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I tried to say "why is
> your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so, and y'all figure it
> out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone emails me directly
> with the result. Knowing that there's a pool of people willing to
> help there would be lovely.
Sounds like a plan.
I reserve the right to respond with “Don't say that _at all_, that's malgli/malrarbau”, of course. :-)
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
<scenic> Rad: Nei, de er pene på innsiden.
<Rad> Paa innsiden har de kjoett og organer og slikt. Det er ikke pent.
Sebastian Fröjd
uicai.a'u. it sounds really wonderful having two baby girls at the same time, and also learning them lojban!!
I would love to contribute in whatever way I can for you to raise your girls in a loving and developing way.
Although my ability to communicate in lojban is very limited, I think I can invent new words, especially in the subject of childcare and pedagogy, since I'm both a pedagog and psychology-sociology student. Personally I don't like the concept of lojbanists using too much fu'ivla, so it would be much better I think using (scientific) adequate lujvo.
I've been thinking that if I someday will have another child (I've got a 8-year old daughter), I definitely would like to learn him/her lojban.
So some basic things I've been thinking about:
- Bilingualists seem to develop language slightly slower, but on the other side they perform better on some cognitive tasks, like creative thinking. Most important thing is to be consistent, that the same person use the same language under the same condition.
- Sign language can stimulate early language development. The ideal would be a lojban-based (simplified?) sign language, but since no such thing exists today maybe "baby signs" would be a pretty simple way of communicating with infant as complementary to lojban. Other famous sign languages are american sign language, british sign language, swedish sign language, and in fact every geographic region got their own version.
Another benefit of sign language is that it decrease the child's frustration in situations where the child is trying to express it's basic needs with the risk of being misunderstood by the adult.
- I don't know how much you have thought about gender issues, but I think no parent would like their children to have fewer chances to attain success. Unfortunately the "sex-typing" phenomena ("which involves treating others differently based on whether they are female or male") tends to form children into a gender-role that eventually will lead girls into a lower status and chance of less success compared to men under the same conditions. I think the gender-neutral potential of lojban together with a gender-critical thinking could be a good tool to help your daughters toward self-realization.
- Other good stimulants for infants are massage, baby swimming, natural materials of good quality, good nutrition (organic?), qualitative sensory inputs like warm colors in the environment and classical music (Mozart stimulates intellect and reggae is the favourite music for the baby to sleep according to some research), adults that can act as good behavorial models (they do as you do, not as you say to them) and of course a lot of love!. Not really a lojban topic, but anyway I'm just trying to give you some good advice! Good luck!
-jongausib
"Meet the child with reverence, raise it with love and let it go in freedom" - Rudolf Steiner
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.arpis.
Congratulations!
I'll help however much I can with the word coinage (which may not be very much; I'm still new to this).
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
selpa'i
of baby-related vocabulary in Lojban (or anything that might be useful
when raising a jboverba).
It can be found at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnhMaqdmV_nJdEZEZGozRVQ1bExCVmNfbkF1N05RT2c&hl=de#gid=0
It would be great if some of you could add new words and fill in the
blanks.
I also believe that helping out Robin with this is certainly in the
interest of the whole Lojban community.
Muhammad Nael
Craig Daniel
"Just make sure they don't disobey the grammar!" is not how language
acquisition works with any natural language.
M. Nael
"Just make sure they don't disobey the grammar!" is not how languageacquisition works with any natural language.
M. Nael
Ummm... If they were sixteen year old, I would have been able to help. And I don't think my young sister could help here either so we're both out of the equation unfortunately...
Jonathan Jones
I have recently had the pleasure to witness the birth of my two
amazing girl infants.
Congratulations!
The mother is permitting me (it was a requirement of my helping her
have kids, actually) to natter at them in Lojban, with the intention
of them learning it as a language in the usual way (i.e. by having
it around, rather than by explicit teaching). This will be a bit
wonky as I'm the only person in the household who speaks it, but
it'll be interesting, at least.
I'm sorry, the wording is a bit unclear. Is she requiring you, or are you requiring her to let you, natter in Lojban?
Now, having said that, while I'm pretty good with the language, I
have the same sorts of problems as everybody else: I get stuck
saying things because I don't have the vocabulary or because of lack
of idiom.
This sort of thing takes a fair bit of effort to overcome (I've been
known to spend multiple hours creating a new word, for example), and
I don't have a lot of spare effort available, because, as previously
mentioned, I'm *raising infant twins*. This limits my available
time. Pretty extremely.
It is likely that the Lojban community has some pretty strong
interest in helping out with this project. :)
So, if you'd like to help, here's what I'd like:
1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with vocab/idiom
issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post here (perhaps
with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I tried to say "why is
your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so, and y'all figure it
out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone emails me directly
with the result. Knowing that there's a pool of people willing to
help there would be lovely.
Sounds good to me. I volunteer to be email-you-guy.
2. Right now my sleep schedule has been modified to accomodate the
household's needs, and this is likely to last for a few weeks. In
particular, I have some dead time between about midnight and about
06:00 US/Pacific time. People being around to chat with in Lojban
would be lovely. Ideally, be on IRC and then we'll skype. I don't
necessarily need people to do any talking, I just need more practice
at emitting at full speed. If the other person understands me, so
much the better. :)
3. The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting. Would you
be interested in hearing it, in Lojban? I was thinking of doing it
on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would someone be
willing to turn it into something readable? I would need a variety
of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and "labour contraction"
and "cervical dilation". fu'ivla seem like decent choices there.
Or, hell, cmevla. We don't use cmevla enough for highly technical
things around here.
I'm rather busy with college right now, so I can't help in either of those areas currently, but I am interested, and considering this is a long-term deal, my ability, time constraints, etc. will no doubt change. I don't see why you think fu'ivla or cmevla are preferable to lujvo, though.
I think that's it.
-Robin
--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Jonathan Jones
My previous post didn't get posted for some reason, so here it is again.
I recently created a google doc to help with the creation of jboverba
vocabulary.
It can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnhMaqdmV_nJdEZEZGozRVQ1bExCVmNfbkF1N05RT2c&hl=de#gid=0
It would be great if some people could contribute by filling in the
blanks, creating words etc. I believe this is in the interest of the
whole Lojban community.
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Pierre Abbat
> I have recently had the pleasure to witness the birth of my two
> amazing girl infants.
uicaidai!
> 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with vocab/idiom
> issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post here (perhaps
> with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I tried to say "why is
> your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so, and y'all figure it
> out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone emails me directly
> with the result. Knowing that there's a pool of people willing to
> help there would be lovely.
I am willing. "lo do ctebi cu desku ri'a ma?"
> 2. Right now my sleep schedule has been modified to accomodate the
> household's needs, and this is likely to last for a few weeks. In
> particular, I have some dead time between about midnight and about
> 06:00 US/Pacific time. People being around to chat with in Lojban
> would be lovely. Ideally, be on IRC and then we'll skype. I don't
> necessarily need people to do any talking, I just need more practice
> at emitting at full speed. If the other person understands me, so
> much the better. :)
I may be available, depending on whether I wake up before the alarm goes off.
I don't have Skype, just IRC and a phone.
> 3. The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting. Would you
> be interested in hearing it, in Lojban? I was thinking of doing it
> on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would someone be
> willing to turn it into something readable? I would need a variety
> of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and "labour contraction"
> and "cervical dilation". fu'ivla seem like decent choices there.
> Or, hell, cmevla. We don't use cmevla enough for highly technical
> things around here.
I am interested. My guess at those phrases is "gutryslu nuncpu" and "gutryne'o
nilganra".
Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.
Robin Lee Powell
> Ummm... If they were sixteen year old, I would have been able to
> help. And I don't think my young sister could help here either so
> we're both out of the equation unfortunately...
Wait, what?
What does their age have to do with anything? I was asking for
people to help *me*.
Robin Lee Powell
>
>
> 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with
> vocab/idiom issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post
> here (perhaps with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I
> tried to say "why is your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so,
> and y'all figure it out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone
> emails me directly with the result. Knowing that there's a pool
> of people willing to help there would be lovely.
Oh, and: put them in jbovlaste if appropriate.
Robin Lee Powell
wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 02:57:15AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >
> > 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with
> > vocab/idiom issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post
> > here (perhaps with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I
> > tried to say "why is your lip quivering?" today and failed" or
> > so, and y'all figure it out, and I ignore the thread, and then
> > someone emails me directly with the result. Knowing that
> > there's a pool of people willing to help there would be lovely.
>
> Sounds like a plan.
>
> I reserve the right to respond with “Don't say that _at all_,
> that's malgli/malrarbau”, of course. :-)
I've long since passed the urge to need to translate English
*idiom*. What I meant by idiom was *Lojbanic* idiom. So if I say
"How do I say [extremely English idiom]?", please don't respond with
"that's malgli!", please respond with "Here's a decent Lojbanic
idiom that covers the same concept/need/idea".
Robin Lee Powell
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have recently had the pleasure to witness the birth of my two
> > amazing girl infants.
> >
>
> Congratulations!
>
>
> > The mother is permitting me (it was a requirement of my helping
> > her have kids, actually) to natter at them in Lojban, with the
> > intention of them learning it as a language in the usual way
> > (i.e. by having it around, rather than by explicit teaching).
> > This will be a bit wonky as I'm the only person in the household
> > who speaks it, but it'll be interesting, at least.
> >
>
> I'm sorry, the wording is a bit unclear. Is she requiring you, or
> are you requiring her to let you, natter in Lojban?
The latter. She thinks it's pretty silly. :)
> > Now, having said that, while I'm pretty good with the language, I
> > have the same sorts of problems as everybody else: I get stuck
> > saying things because I don't have the vocabulary or because of lack
> > of idiom.
> >
> > This sort of thing takes a fair bit of effort to overcome (I've been
> > known to spend multiple hours creating a new word, for example), and
> > I don't have a lot of spare effort available, because, as previously
> > mentioned, I'm *raising infant twins*. This limits my available
> > time. Pretty extremely.
> >
> > It is likely that the Lojban community has some pretty strong
> > interest in helping out with this project. :)
> >
> > So, if you'd like to help, here's what I'd like:
> >
> > 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with vocab/idiom
> > issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post here (perhaps
> > with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I tried to say "why is
> > your lip quivering?" today and failed" or so, and y'all figure it
> > out, and I ignore the thread, and then someone emails me directly
> > with the result. Knowing that there's a pool of people willing to
> > help there would be lovely.
> >
>
> Sounds good to me. I volunteer to be email-you-guy.
Lovely.
Robin Lee Powell
> rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > 3. The birth story is somewhat unusual and interesting. Would
> > you be interested in hearing it, in Lojban? I was thinking of
> > doing it on IRC, so it could be preserved for posterity; would
> > someone be willing to turn it into something readable? I would
> > need a variety of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and
> > "labour contraction" and "cervical dilation". fu'ivla seem like
> > decent choices there. Or, hell, cmevla. We don't use cmevla
> > enough for highly technical things around here.
> >
>
> I'm rather busy with college right now, so I can't help in either
> of those areas currently, but I am interested, and considering
> this is a long-term deal, my ability, time constraints, etc. will
> no doubt change. I don't see why you think fu'ivla or cmevla are
> preferable to lujvo, though.
Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place
from the relevant gismu. If all you *actually* want is "x1 is a
foobie [of type x2]", that's a fu'ivle or cmevla. I can imagine
that a word for "labour contraction" with an actual interesting
place structure could be made ("x1 is having contractions x2 minutes
apart lasting for x3 minutes each" OSLT), but it's far from
necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu
places *anyways*.
IOW, if you can't look at the *place structure* and say "that's a
place from gasnu, and that's two places from krici, and that's two
places from kubli", then what you have is not naturally a lujvo
style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.
Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for
shouldn't be, IMO. Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;
"x1 is a motherboard" is all you want out of a word for
"motherboard", which means you're not going to use any of the places
of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it
shouldn't be a lujvo.
When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,
you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead. "ry lifri pa la
kyntraktcyn" is (if that's a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one
conversation; unless we're starting the Lojban obstetrical
department, who fucking cares?
Those of you who have known me for a long time, xorxes especially,
will note that this is a significant reversal of my previous stance.
I think it's about how much time you've spent trying to actually
spin whole sentences in Lojban in real time; IME most people who
have done a lot of that start to develop a fondness for fu'ivla.
I also think we, as a community, need to have less of a bug up our
ass about picking the "right" natlang word for fu'ivla. First off,
who cares if there's a bunch of English-based words floating around?
The won't sound like English after the conversion, and if it bothers
you, make your next fu'ivla from german, or swahili. Secondly, why
not do it based on Lojban? Look at a few relevant gismu or lujvo,
and make it sound like them. Avoids the whole problem very
effectively.
Jonathan Jones
On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 10:06:38AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
<snip>
I don't see why you think fu'ivla or cmevla are
> preferable to lujvo, though.
Lujvo should only be used, IMO, when you need more than one place
from the relevant gismu. If all you *actually* want is "x1 is a
foobie [of type x2]", that's a fu'ivle or cmevla. I can imagine
that a word for "labour contraction" with an actual interesting
place structure could be made ("x1 is having contractions x2 minutes
apart lasting for x3 minutes each" OSLT), but it's far from
necessary, and none of those places leap out to me as being gismu
places *anyways*.
IOW, if you can't look at the *place structure* and say "that's a
place from gasnu, and that's two places from krici, and that's two
places from kubli", then what you have is not naturally a lujvo
style place structure, and you should consider not using lujvo.
Many many many specific/technical terms people try to make lujvo for
shouldn't be, IMO. Pretty much all computer stuff, for starters;
"x1 is a motherboard" is all you want out of a word for
"motherboard", which means you're not going to use any of the places
of the 5 gismu you tacked together to make a lujvo for that, so it
shouldn't be a lujvo.
When you only expect to need the word for this current conversation,
you can and should (IMO) use cmevla instead. "ry lifri pa la
kyntraktcyn" is (if that's a legal cmevla) perfectly fine for one
conversation; unless we're starting the Lojban obstetrical
department, who fucking cares?<snip>
I see your point. However, my objection to fu'ivla specifically isn't related to that at all- I dislike them because they are ugly and/or difficult. To the best of my knowledge, all fu'ivla are either easy to make, but ugly and difficult to pronounce, like {cidjrspageti} and the rest of it's type, or else require a great deal of effort to make in such a way as to not be ugly and difficult to pronounce.
I have no objections to the use of cmevla- heck, my name is one. :) However, regarding your point about words in which we would only ever care about the first place, such as with motherboard, I personally prefer the idea that .xorxes.(?) suggested about allowing cmevla to be used a selbri, with the default meaning of such being "x1 is a (member of) <cmevla>": i.e.; {ti (cu) .materbord.} = "This is a motherboard."
Pierre Abbat
> - Bilingualists seem to develop language slightly slower, but on the other
> side they perform better on some cognitive tasks, like creative thinking.
> Most important thing is to be consistent, that the same person use the same
> language under the same condition.
I know a Brazilian man married to a Costa Rican woman. Both speak Portuguese
with their daughter, who is learning all three languages. He speaks English
with an American accent, having come here at the age of 5, and Spanish with a
Brazilian accent, which puzzles me, since I can pick up accents pretty well
when learning a language. I guess they speak Portuguese since that's the
least common of the three languages here.
I grew up speaking English and learning French as soon as I could read. I also
learned to hear Spanish when my mother talked on the phone; my father never
learned Spanish, and my comic books were mostly in French. I now speak
Spanish pretty well, with the same accent as my aunt, though some Salvadoran
accents sound different.
> - Sign language can stimulate early language development. The ideal would
> be a lojban-based (simplified?) sign language, but since no such thing
> exists today maybe "baby signs" would be a pretty simple way of
> communicating with infant as complementary to lojban. Other famous sign
> languages are american sign language, british sign language, swedish sign
> language, and in fact every geographic region got their own version.
> Another benefit of sign language is that it decrease the child's
> frustration in situations where the child is trying to express it's basic
> needs with the risk of being misunderstood by the adult.
I have a baby sign book; the signs are Ameslan, though some vocab is
simplified (IIRR only one of the three negatives is listed). One reason for
learning sign language is that hand-eye coordination matures earlier than
mouth-ear coordination. I suggest teaching a baby two closely related spoken
languages, a spoken language unrelated to the first two, and a sign language.
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.
Luke Bergen
You dirty dog. I was hoping to be the first to do this zo'oru'e. Very much congrats.
My wife and I have had a similar discussion/agreement. Whenever that should happen I hope our kids can be jbopendo :)
MorphemeAddict
Robin Lee Powell
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
>
> I see your point. However, my objection to fu'ivla specifically
> isn't related to that at all- I dislike them because they are ugly
> and/or difficult. To the best of my knowledge, all fu'ivla are
> either easy to make, but ugly and difficult to pronounce, like
> {cidjrspageti} and the rest of it's type, or else require a great
> deal of effort to make in such a way as to not be ugly and
> difficult to pronounce.
Oh, not at all; type-4 are very easy. You can usually make one by
starting with a lujvo and lopping off a letter or two in the middle
somewhere, for example.
Anything with a consonant cluster in the first 5 letters, that ends
in vowel, and isn't a gismu or lujvo, is valid. That's a *big*
space, and much of it is extremely easy to pronounce.
(Also, I don't find cidjrspageti that hard to pronounce, but I used
to)
> I have no objections to the use of cmevla- heck, my name is one.
> :) However, regarding your point about words in which we would
> only ever care about the first place, such as with motherboard, I
> personally prefer the idea that .xorxes.(?) suggested about
> allowing cmevla to be used a selbri, with the default meaning of
> such being "x1 is a (member of) <cmevla>": i.e.; {ti (cu)
> .materbord.} = "This is a motherboard."
That's not likely to become an official choice any time soon, so of
course you'd risk misunderstanding there. IIRC there's actually a
really good reason to disallow it, but I'm not remembering it off
the top of my head. {me la} isn't terribly difficult, too.
Robin Lee Powell
>
> > 1. An indication here if you'd be willing to help with
> > vocab/idiom issues. My ideal here would be that I send a post
> > here (perhaps with "jboverba" in the subject always?) with "I
> > tried to say "why is your lip quivering?" today and failed" or
> > so, and y'all figure it out, and I ignore the thread, and then
> > someone emails me directly with the result. Knowing that
> > there's a pool of people willing to help there would be lovely.
>
> I am willing. "lo do ctebi cu desku ri'a ma?"
That wasn't an actual example. :)
Robin Lee Powell
If they pick up any Lojban at all, which is hardly a guarantee. I'm
mostly treating it as a silly experiment.
If nothing else, I hope they at least receive the usual bilingualism
benefits, since no-one around them besides me speaks any other
languages.
Robin Lee Powell
>
> > - Sign language can stimulate early language development. The
> > ideal would be a lojban-based (simplified?) sign language, but
> > since no such thing exists today maybe "baby signs" would be a
> > pretty simple way of communicating with infant as complementary
> > to lojban. Other famous sign languages are american sign
> > language, british sign language, swedish sign language, and in
> > fact every geographic region got their own version. Another
> > benefit of sign language is that it decrease the child's
> > frustration in situations where the child is trying to express
> > it's basic needs with the risk of being misunderstood by the
> > adult.
>
> I have a baby sign book; the signs are Ameslan, though some vocab
> is simplified (IIRR only one of the three negatives is listed).
> One reason for learning sign language is that hand-eye
> coordination matures earlier than mouth-ear coordination. I
> suggest teaching a baby two closely related spoken languages, a
> spoken language unrelated to the first two, and a sign language.
Unfortunately, I'm the *only* person in the babys' circle that
speaks more than one language, and I speak English and Lojban, so
that limits our options rather a lot.
One of my gfs is going to try to learn baby sign to do with the
babies, but I don't know where she's going to find the time.
Robin Lee Powell
response besides "I agree" or "interesting".
On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 12:25:37PM +0100, Sebastian Fr�jd wrote:
>
> - Sign language can stimulate early language development. The ideal would
> be a lojban-based (simplified?) sign language,
I've been thinking about it for a while, and I think the idea of
"lojban-based sign language" is a bankrupt concept. The sorts of
things that you would do in a 2 or 3 dimensional spatial language
that have the same sort of coolness factor and rigorousness as
Lojban would look *NOTHING* like Lojban itself, at all, and would
not be remotely compatible. Imagine, as a random example, nesting
of lo-nu style clauses by moving down and to one side for each new
clause, rather than having terminators.
I can't see that Signed Exact Lojban, which is the other option
here, would have any advantages versus just learning ASL or
whatever. If there was a half-way decent or well supported
international sign auxlang I'd be very interested in that, but I
don't think there is.
> - I don't know how much you have thought about gender issues, but
> I think no parent would like their children to have fewer chances
> to attain success.
We have thought and talked about that a *great* deal.
Unfortunately, in a language with sex/gender specific pronouns,
our options are limited; refusing to disk the babies' sex just means
that people are hostile around them all the time, and that's not
fair to them.
> Unfortunately the "sex-typing" phenomena ("which involves treating
> others differently based on whether they are female or male")
> tends to form children into a gender-role that eventually will
> lead girls into a lower status and chance of less success compared
> to men under the same conditions. I think the gender-neutral
> potential of lojban together with a gender-critical thinking could
> be a good tool to help your daughters toward self-realization.
Yes, I certainly have gender-critical thinking, although I'd not
heard that term before, very high on my mental list of how to raise
them. As a side comment, my favorite baby book so far is
http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Rules-Baby-Raise-Smart/dp/0979777755
because it's got lots of great research.
> - Other good stimulants for infants are massage, baby swimming,
> natural materials of good quality, good nutrition (organic?),
> qualitative sensory inputs like warm colors in the environment and
> classical music (Mozart stimulates intellect and reggae is the
> favourite music for the baby to sleep according to some research),
Yeah, you really want to read the book I just linked; the Mozart
thing is crap, I'm afraid.
> adults that can act as good behavorial models (they do as you do,
> not as you say to them) and of course a lot of love!. Not really a
> lojban topic, but anyway I'm just trying to give you some good
> advice! Good luck!
Thanks!
selpa'i
po'o .i pe'i lo da'i nu tavla fo la. lojban .e ji'a lo drata cu ve
nadgau fi lo nu cilre fi la. lojban. vau lo re jbena .i ki'u bo ri djuno
lo du'u na nitcu ly. lo nu tavla do vau ki'u lo nu lo nu tavla fo lo
glico cu banzu lo nu se jimpe .i ku'i nai .e'u ko se jbobau po'o
Luke Bergen
Oh, not at all; type-4 are very easy. You can usually make one by
starting with a lujvo and lopping off a letter or two in the middle
somewhere, for example.
Anything with a consonant cluster in the first 5 letters, that ends
in vowel, and isn't a gismu or lujvo, is valid. That's a *big*
space, and much of it is extremely easy to pronounce.
(Also, I don't find cidjrspageti that hard to pronounce, but I used
to)
-Robin
Jorge Llambías
<rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
ui dai .i mi do gekykansa lo nu do patfu doi camgusmis
.i ku'i .e'o .e'o .e'o sai ko na cusku di'u
> Anything with a consonant cluster in the first 5 letters, that ends
> in vowel, and isn't a gismu or lujvo, is valid.
Except things like slinku'i or paprika.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Adam Lopresto
.i me la'oi contraction cei kantrakto .i co'e li'o
Ian Johnson
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/menseika'e
It makes sense for this to be a lujvo because I can write out what it means in lojban.
If you have legitimate trouble with a pure lojban definition, at least for the denotation of the word, it probably doesn't make sense for it to be a lujvo. At the very least it probably isn't jvajvo.
Incidentally, it would be kinda nice if type 4s could have rafsi, so that you could coin just a few basic jargon concepts and then interrelate the others using lujvo. For example you could have a lujvo of "integrated circuit" and a handful of others and with a little more work you could coin a lot of the jargon hardware terms as lujvo.
mu'o mi'e latros
Jorge Llambías
>
> Incidentally, it would be kinda nice if type 4s could have rafsi, so that
> you could coin just a few basic jargon concepts and then interrelate the
> others using lujvo. For example you could have a lujvo of "integrated
> circuit" and a handful of others and with a little more work you could coin
> a lot of the jargon hardware terms as lujvo.
The PEG morphology gives rafsi to every fu'ivla.
In last place, the rafsi is just the full fu'ivla, as with gismu,
except you need to preceed it with y-ending rafsi only (which is not a
problem because every brivla has at least one of those). In non-last
place, the rafsi is formed by adding 'y (apostrophe y) to the fu'ivla.
They also can only be preceded by y-rafsi. If the fu'ivla starts with
a vowel, the dot becomes an apostrophe when not in initial position.
(Some fu'ivla also have somewhat shorter rafsi, formed by replacing
the last vowel with a y, but it is hard to precisely specify the class
of fu'ivla that allow this. Basically as long as it can't be confused
with an ordinary lujvo.)
Pierre Abbat
> of vocab, in particular words for "labour" and "labour contraction"
> and "cervical dilation".
zo zumjbe .abo zo puvjbe fa'u zo nuncpu fa'u lu gutryne'o nilganra li'u
Btw, we were talking about false friends on LHC and someone came up with a
Russian-Serbian one. Russian трудно means difficult (труд means labor), but
Serbian трудна means pregnant.
mu'omi'e .pier.
--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
Muhammad Nael
Ummm... If they were sixteen year old, I would have been able to help. And I don't think my young sister could help here either so we're both out of the equation unfortunately...
That sounded inappropriate... Look at my other thread to get what I mean...
Robin Lee Powell
> .i ta'o .a'o .e'u xu do doi la. camgusmis. tavla lo jbena fo la.
> lojban po'o
mi ca na go'i .i ku'i mi zu'edji .i mi nitcu lo nu rapcreze'a la jbobau
> .i pe'i lo da'i nu tavla fo la. lojban .e ji'a lo drata
> cu ve nadgau fi lo nu cilre fi la. lojban. vau lo re jbena
mi bilga lo nu cusku bau la glibau vi le verbi .i mu'i bo le mamta
se bangu la glibau po'o .i mi pu ciski le nu go'i
> .i ki'u bo ri djuno lo du'u na nitcu ly. lo nu tavla do vau ki'u
> lo nu lo nu tavla fo lo glico cu banzu lo nu se jimpe .i ku'i nai
> .e'u ko se jbobau po'o
na cumki
Robin Lee Powell
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh, not at all; type-4 are very easy. You can usually make one
> > by starting with a lujvo and lopping off a letter or two in the
> > middle somewhere, for example.
> >
> > Anything with a consonant cluster in the first 5 letters, that
> > ends in vowel, and isn't a gismu or lujvo, is valid. That's a
> > *big* space, and much of it is extremely easy to pronounce.
> >
>
> Wait, does that exclude 5 letter words? i.e. if I saw "gratu" I
> would assume that it was a gismu but technically it meets your
> criteria.
That's a gismu, it just happens to not be defined. We're talking
about word-shape here, not semantics. And yeah, I oversimplified a
lot. :)
Robin Lee Powell
> I think a lot of the arguments "against" lujvo in this thread
> vanish when you insist to yourself to at least give a pure lojban
> definition of a lujvo an attempt. Example from the other day that
> I made that I think illustrates the point pretty well:
>
> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/menseika'e
>
> It makes sense for this to be a lujvo because I can write out what
> it means in lojban.
I think that's a pretty excellent test, actually, although I do
believe that anything *can* be explained in Lojban with only the
words we have ... eventually. :) It just might take a page of
text. But "can be compactly described in Lojban" seems like a good
boundary condition for lujvo-making.
In that particular case, though, it doesn't really work; "menli
sepli" doesn't mean anything like "distinguish" to me at all. I'd
take that to mean "can keep two issues seperate in one's mind", like
a therapist who sees both of a married couple and has to keep their
issues seperated mentally. If you showed me your Lojban definition
there, I'd *never* have come up with a meaning remotely like the
English word "distinguish", which to me has nothing whatsoever to do
with {sepli}. "distinguish" is about being able to tell the
differences between things, which is {frica} I think. In other
words, and I'm sorry, menseika'e is a really bad word IMO for the
stated English meaning.
That doesn't change the fact that I agree with your assertion about
lujvo.
> If you have legitimate trouble with a pure lojban definition, at
> least for the denotation of the word, it probably doesn't make
> sense for it to be a lujvo. At the very least it probably isn't
> jvajvo.
+1
> Incidentally, it would be kinda nice if type 4s could have rafsi,
> so that you could coin just a few basic jargon concepts and then
> interrelate the others using lujvo. For example you could have a
> lujvo of "integrated circuit" and a handful of others and with a
> little more work you could coin a lot of the jargon hardware terms
> as lujvo.
IIRC xorxes had a proposal there?
Robin Lee Powell
Can you show me a few examples of use here?
Robin Lee Powell
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> ui dai .i mi do gekykansa lo nu do patfu doi camgusmis
ki'e xorxes
> .i ku'i .e'o .e'o .e'o sai ko na cusku di'u
ki'a sai .i xu do djica lo nu mi na cusku lu mi do gekykansa lo nu
do patfu doi camgusmis li'u .i lo nu da'i go'i cu se mukti ma
Robin Lee Powell
And yeah, I meant all of them. Except maybe stage-3, which are kind
of awful. :D
But mostly I wasn't even thinking of *importing* words from other
languages so much as *coining* new words in fu'ivla space.
-Robin
Jorge Llambías
<rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 11:08:39AM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote:
>
>> .i ku'i .e'o .e'o .e'o sai ko na cusku di'u
>
> ki'a sai .i xu do djica lo nu mi na cusku lu mi do gekykansa lo nu
> do patfu doi camgusmis li'u .i lo nu da'i go'i cu se mukti ma
.u'i .i na'i .i mi na se fanza lo nu do cusku ra do .i mi djica lo nu
do na tavla fi lo mumlerfu javni noi lo ka tolsidju cu zmadu lo ka
sidju .i je'u mi ciska jy lo cnita be zo di'u .i ku'i do cusku jy pu
lo nu mi sitna .i .i'a .ei mi cusku zo di'e .e nai zo di'u
And Rosta
> In that particular case, though, it doesn't really work; "menli
> sepli" doesn't mean anything like "distinguish" to me at all. I'd
> take that to mean "can keep two issues seperate in one's mind", like
> a therapist who sees both of a married couple and has to keep their
> issues seperated mentally. If you showed me your Lojban definition
> there, I'd *never* have come up with a meaning remotely like the
> English word "distinguish", which to me has nothing whatsoever to do
> with {sepli}. "distinguish" is about being able to tell the
> differences between things, which is {frica} I think. In other
> words, and I'm sorry, menseika'e is a really bad word IMO for the
> stated English meaning.
frica, or drata, or na zei du.
Robin Lee Powell
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:31 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> >
> >> .i ku'i .e'o .e'o .e'o sai ko na cusku di'u
> >
> > ki'a sai .i xu do djica lo nu mi na cusku lu mi do gekykansa lo
> > nu do patfu doi camgusmis li'u .i lo nu da'i go'i cu se mukti ma
>
> .u'i .i na'i .i mi na se fanza lo nu do cusku ra do .i mi djica lo
> nu do na tavla fi lo mumlerfu javni noi lo ka tolsidju cu zmadu lo
> ka sidju .i je'u mi ciska jy lo cnita be zo di'u
.ua sai zo di'u cu srana da poi mi pu cusku .e nai le purlamji jufra
.i .oi ru'e ko pilno zo de'u
> .i ku'i do cusku jy pu lo nu mi sitna .i .i'a .ei mi cusku zo di'e
> .e nai zo di'u
.i la'a zo di'e cu xagmau fi mi lo du'u la'a mi pu jimpe da'i .i
ku'i le te frica be zo di'e bei zo di'u cu srana lo ka purci .e nai
lo ka cpana .i se ki'u bo mi na nelci zo di'e do'e le ca casnu
Ian Johnson
IIRC xorxes had a proposal there?
> Incidentally, it would be kinda nice if type 4s could have rafsi,
> so that you could coin just a few basic jargon concepts and then
> interrelate the others using lujvo. For example you could have a
> lujvo of "integrated circuit" and a handful of others and with a
> little more work you could coin a lot of the jargon hardware terms
> as lujvo.
I of course meant "fu'ivla of "integrated circuit"". And maybe so; I know there's a proposal even in the CLL about cultural type 4 of a certain morphological form having rafsi.
Robin Lee Powell
> Any better ideas for {menseika'e}? Simply menficka'e isn't gonna
> work I don't think, and I'm not sure what else I can use. I was a
> little skeptical about {sepli}. The context, by the way, was that
> I had gotten two people mixed up in my head, and couldn't recall
> which was which.
I would do something like frica + sanji, or djuno, or ganse, or
morji.
I would keep menli out if I could.
Pierre Abbat
> I created a google doc a couple of days ago to help with the creation
> of baby-related vocabulary in Lojban (or anything that might be useful
> when raising a jboverba).
> It can be found at
>
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnhMaqdmV_nJdEZEZGozRVQ1bExCVmNfbkF1N05RT2c&hl=de#gid=0
Is anyone else working on this? I haven't seen anyone else edit it since I
started.
Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
Michael Turniansky
Congratulations, Robin!After a certain time, the twins will speak between themselves, and the burden on you will thereby be lessened (I'm guessing).
stevo