Sentence translation

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Robin Lee Powell

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Jun 16, 2001, 10:34:24 PM6/16/01
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I was trying to translate:

"Get off my car or I'll crack your head open with this baseball bat."

I chose to ignore 'baseball bat' in favor of 'big stick', but here's my
result:

.o'onai ko na zutse lo mi karce seki'unai lo nu porpi le do stedu pi'o
lo barda grana

Does seki'unai do what I want? Any other ways to handle it?

-Robin

--
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest.
le datni cu djica le nu zifre .iku'i .oi le so'e datni cu to'e te pilno
je xlali -- RLP http://www.lojban.org/

Jorge Llambias

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Jun 17, 2001, 12:33:44 AM6/17/01
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la camgusmis cusku di'e

>"Get off my car or I'll crack your head open with this baseball bat."
>

>.o'onai ko na zutse lo mi karce seki'unai lo nu porpi le do stedu pi'o
>lo barda grana

(porpi -> popygau; pi'o -> sepi'o)

>Does seki'unai do what I want? Any other ways to handle it?

No, {seki'unai} is "nevertheless". I would say:

o'onai ko na zutse le mi karce i va'o na'e bo la'e di'u
mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o lo barda grana

{va'o na'e bo la'e di'u} is awfully long for "otherwise",
but the alternative (something with jo/ja) I try to avoid.

{la'e di'u} should be a one syllable cmavo, it is extremely
frequent. (Perhaps {lau}, once its old meaning becomes obsolete
for lack of use.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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jjlla...@hotmail.com

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Jun 17, 2001, 1:38:54 PM6/17/01
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la rab di'e cusku

> Well, I think that would be one situation where it's okay to lie,
but here's a
> version of the sentence which leaves open the possibility that he
gets off the
> car and the speaker hits him with the bat anyway:
>
> .i ko co'u zutse lo mi karce .ija mi porpi ledo stedu pi'o levi
barda grana
>
> "Stop sitting on my car, or I break your head with this large
stick. Or both."

I think the three possibilities can work:

i do co'u zutse le mi karce ijonai mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o
le vi barda grana
"Either you stop sitting on my car or I break your head..."

i do co'u zutse le mi karce ija mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o
le vi barda grana
"If you don't stop sitting on my car, I break your head..."

i do co'u zutse le mi karce inajanai mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o
le vi barda grana
"If you stop sitting on my car, I don't break your head..."

Which one is more effective depends more on your credibility
and capacity to carry out the explicit or implied threat. I find
the last one the most effective, as it leaves me at freedom as
to what to do in case you don't stop sitting on my car. Why should
you restrict your possibilities?

In any case, what I find most objectionable is using {ko} there
instead of {do}. What exactly is the command? Whatever {do} does,
the statement will be true anyway, or in any case it will be up
to you to make it true, so it is a promise/threat, not a command.

Unless you are interpreting it as both a command and a threat,
i.e. a blend of {ko co'u zutse le mi karce} and {do co'u zutse
le mi karce ijonai mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o le vi barda
grana}. But can it be both?

thin...@lycos.com

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Jun 17, 2001, 6:03:28 AM6/17/01
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--- In lojban@y..., Rob Speer <rob@t...> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:34:24PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > I was trying to translate:
> >
> > "Get off my car or I'll crack your head open with this baseball
bat."
> >
> > I chose to ignore 'baseball bat' in favor of 'big stick', but
here's my
> > result:
> >
> > .o'onai ko na zutse lo mi karce seki'unai lo nu porpi le do stedu
pi'o
> > lo barda grana
> >
> > Does seki'unai do what I want? Any other ways to handle it?
> >
> > -Robin
>
> Well, of course, I'd argue that logical connectives would make the
point quite
> clear.
>
> .i ko co'u zutse lo mi karce .ijonai mi porpi ledo stedu pi'o levi
barda grana
>
> I think {co'u} applies more than {na} here, because it is quite
clear that the
> listener is sitting on the car already. The tenseless "Don't be
sitting on my
> car" might be a bit difficult to fulfill.
>
> The .ijonai causes the sentence to mean:
> "Stop sitting on my car and I won't crack your head open with this
baseball
> bat." and
> "Keep sitting on my car and I'll crack your head open with this
baseball bat."
> simultaneously. And I think the listener will be certain which one
he wants to
> make true.
>
> --
> Rob Speer

oops i replied directly to you...anyways i was saying this is making
more of an assertion than you want. you are saying if the person
stops sitting on the car, you will not hit him with the bat. what if
he pulls a knife? i think you should use nu'o ba, and then a bai
modal.


Rob Speer

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Jun 17, 2001, 12:08:19 AM6/17/01
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On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:34:24PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> I was trying to translate:
>
> "Get off my car or I'll crack your head open with this baseball bat."
>
> I chose to ignore 'baseball bat' in favor of 'big stick', but here's my
> result:
>
> .o'onai ko na zutse lo mi karce seki'unai lo nu porpi le do stedu pi'o
> lo barda grana
>
> Does seki'unai do what I want? Any other ways to handle it?
>
> -Robin

Well, of course, I'd argue that logical connectives would make the point quite

Value Yourself

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Jun 17, 2001, 5:53:21 PM6/17/01
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.ie .i le logji valsi cu melbi traji .i ko pilno le do logji kamvlipa
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Pierre Abbat

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Jun 17, 2001, 11:04:52 AM6/17/01
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Rob Speer wrote:
>Well, I think that would be one situation where it's okay to lie, but here's a
>version of the sentence which leaves open the possibility that he gets off the
>car and the speaker hits him with the bat anyway:
>
>.i ko co'u zutse lo mi karce .ija mi porpi ledo stedu pi'o levi barda grana

s/porpi/porpygau/
What you wrote means:
Stop sitting on my car, or I fall to pieces, one of which is your head, with
the big stick.

phma

Rob Speer

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Jun 17, 2001, 10:34:06 AM6/17/01
to loj...@yahoogroups.com
On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:59:20AM -0000, thin...@lycos.com wrote:
> > The .ijonai causes the sentence to mean:
> > "Stop sitting on my car and I won't crack your head open with this
> baseball
> > bat." and
> > "Keep sitting on my car and I'll crack your head open with this
> baseball bat."
> > simultaneously. And I think the listener will be certain which one
> he wants to
> > make true.
> >
> > --
> > Rob Speer
>
> no, this isn't right. you are asserting too much by saying that you
> won't hit the person with the bat if he is off the car. he could
> pull a knife on you at that point.

Well, I think that would be one situation where it's okay to lie, but here's a
version of the sentence which leaves open the possibility that he gets off the
car and the speaker hits him with the bat anyway:

.i ko co'u zutse lo mi karce .ija mi porpi ledo stedu pi'o levi barda grana

"Stop sitting on my car, or I break your head with this large stick. Or both."
--
Rob Speer


Robin Lee Powell

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Jun 17, 2001, 1:37:53 AM6/17/01
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On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:33:44AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote:
> {va'o na'e bo la'e di'u} is awfully long for "otherwise",
> but the alternative (something with jo/ja) I try to avoid.

Because of the arguments we've had here about it?

michael helsem

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Jun 17, 2001, 6:54:25 PM6/17/01
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>From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org>
li'o
>"Get off my car or I'll crack your head open with this baseball bat."
>

le'osai gu'o sedyda'i cfari gi karcytse ranji
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Pierre Abbat

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Jun 17, 2001, 12:35:33 AM6/17/01
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Rob Speer wrote:
>Well, of course, I'd argue that logical connectives would make the point quite
>clear.
>
>.i ko co'u zutse lo mi karce .ijonai mi porpi ledo stedu pi'o levi barda grana
>
>I think {co'u} applies more than {na} here, because it is quite clear that the
>listener is sitting on the car already. The tenseless "Don't be sitting on my
>car" might be a bit difficult to fulfill.
>
>The .ijonai causes the sentence to mean:
>"Stop sitting on my car and I won't crack your head open with this baseball
>bat." and
>"Keep sitting on my car and I'll crack your head open with this baseball bat."
>simultaneously. And I think the listener will be certain which one he wants to
>make true.

Not knowing the Lojban names of ball games, I'd use {bolci daxtci} for "baseball
bat", though that could just as easily be a racket. If I were to use a BAI
cmavo in that sentence, I'd use mu'inai or semu'inai (I get the two confused).

phma

Rob Speer

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Jun 17, 2001, 1:09:32 AM6/17/01
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On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:33:44AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote:
> {la'e di'u} should be a one syllable cmavo, it is extremely
> frequent. (Perhaps {lau}, once its old meaning becomes obsolete
> for lack of use.)

While I don't understand your reluctance to use jo/ja, I definitely agree with
you on this point. How about {xau} for the time being?
--
Rob Speer


Robin Lee Powell

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Jun 18, 2001, 8:00:18 PM6/18/01
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On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 05:38:54PM -0000, jjlla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In any case, what I find most objectionable is using {ko} there
> instead of {do}. What exactly is the command? Whatever {do} does, the
> statement will be true anyway, or in any case it will be up to you to
> make it true, so it is a promise/threat, not a command.
>
> Unless you are interpreting it as both a command and a threat, i.e. a
> blend of {ko co'u zutse le mi karce} and {do co'u zutse le mi karce
> ijonai mi popygau le do stedu sepi'o le vi barda grana}. But can it be
> both?

We've been over this before, but in my opinion, yes.

There's another way, as well:

va'o le nu do na sisti le nu zutse le mi karce kei kei mi popygau le do


stedu sepi'o le vi barda grana

I'm sure there's a better way to do the 'kei kei' though.

Robin Lee Powell

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Jun 18, 2001, 7:52:47 PM6/18/01
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On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:03:28AM -0000, thin...@lycos.com wrote:
> oops i replied directly to you...anyways i was saying this is making
> more of an assertion than you want. you are saying if the person
> stops sitting on the car, you will not hit him with the bat. what if
> he pulls a knife? i think you should use nu'o ba, and then a bai
> modal.

Can you construct a whole sentence that uses that? I'm not sure what
you mean.

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