{zo'i} vs. {fa'a}

[la gleki]

Could you please provide some examples shoeing the difference?

[rden...@gmail.com]

The difference seems to be in the starting point:

“zo'i” and “ze'o” refer to direction towards or away from the speaker’s location, or
whatever the origin is.
“fa'a” and “to'o” refer to direction towards or away from some other point.
[CLL 10.28]

remod

On , la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could you please provide some examples shoeing the difference?
>
>
>
>

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[la gleki]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 5:23:38 PM UTC+4, remod wrote:

The difference seems to be in the starting point:

“zo'i” and “ze'o” refer to direction towards or away from the speaker’s location, or
whatever the origin is.
“fa'a” and “to'o” refer to direction towards or away from some other point.
[CLL 10.28]

Do you really think I haven't read this?

Anyway, what is the  ", or whatever the origin is"?

Give me examples showing the difference. I'd prefer those that would differ in this word only.

[selpa'i]

Am 06.11.2012 11:47, schrieb la gleki:
> Could you please provide some examples shoeing the difference?

I don't think "fa'a" and "zo'i" have much in common.
"zo'i" doesn't see much use, but I think it used to be thought of as
meaning "inward", whereas I understand it to mean "on the same side as".
Here is an example:

mi zutse lo rirxe korbi zo'i lo tolci'o cindu
I'm sitting by the river on the same side as the old oak.

However, I'm not sure whether or not zo'i should refer to the event of
the bridi or to one of its arguments, the former is more consistent. In
the case of fa'a, the event is put in relation to the tagged sumti:

mi cadzu fa'a lo bitmu
I walk towards the wall.

This is the same as:

lo nu mi cadzu cu se farna lo bitmu
My walking is oriented towards the wall.

This means that in the case of fa'a, the event is redistributed into
another place of the sumtcita's base brivla (farna2 in this case). This
is common among sumtcita with an event place.

This can be done for zo'i as well, but then it gets slightly less useful:

mi zutse lo rirxe korbi zo'i lo cindu
The event of me sitting by the river is on the same side as the oak.
[from what?]

The most coherent answer is that the reference point, just like with VA,
is bound by context or explicitly using ki. Then:

lo cipni cu zutse lo tricu zo'i lo verba
The event of the bird sitting on the tree is one the same side [from me]
as the child.

Which would then be the same as:

lo nu lo cipni cu zutse lo tricu cu tolragve lo verba lo manri [no'u mi]

Whereas under the first interpretation it would be:

lo cipni cu tolragve lo verba lo tricu

I'm not sure which of these two interpretations is preferred, or if in
fact a third, different one, is preferred. I think the first one is
easier to use, but it less consistent with the rest of the tags. In the
second interpretation, it is sometimes somewhat arbitrary which of the
sumti gets picked as tolragve1 and which as tolragve3, so it's less
semantically clear.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku


.


.

[selpa'i]

Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only the event
interpretation makes sense, so

mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe

would expand to

lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]

"I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."

The proposed BPFK definition lacks this manri, but I feel like it should
be there, overridable by context and ki. So my proposed definition would be:

zo'i == fi'o se tolragve be fi lo manri

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:

Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only the event
interpretation makes sense, so

mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe

would expand to

lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]

"I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."

Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?

Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?

[selpa'i]

Am 07.11.2012 15:57, schrieb la gleki:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only the event
> interpretation makes sense, so
>
> mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe
>
> would expand to
>
> lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]
>
> "I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."
>
>
> Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?
> Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?

As far as I am aware, no such table exists. In my personal opinion, any
tags whose root place structure allow an event place somewhere should
redistribute the event of the bridi into that place. For tags where an
event place doesn't exist, the solution is less straightforward, but I
think that in many cases, it can be systemized by use of thematic roles
(e.g. agent, patient, etc).
I don't think such a formalization has been done yet, but I would very
much like to work on it, because as of right now, many tags have very
blurry semantics.

mi sanga bau lo lojbo

What does bau semantically attach to? Leaving that up to context is not
satisfactory, so there must be an unambiguous machanism to determine the
relationship of a tag to the bridi or its sumti.
Does bau attach to the event of the bridi? Does it attach to mi? To sanga2?
My preferred solution for this particular example has been to say that
bangu3 takes the event of the bridi thus:

lo lojbo cu bangu fi lo nu mi sanga

Which means that bangu3 needs to be changed to something like "... [to
communicate] in situation x3". (Not a big deal because I have never seen
bangu3 used)

Under the light of this idea, many gismu need slight alterations (most
of which probably would not break usage). The reward is a robust
semantical system.

There are edge cases where both interpretations could be argued for, a
good example is {se rai}. As far as I can tell, it has always been used
to refer to a sumti, usually the place that would be assigned the
"agent" theta role:

mi bajra se rai lo ka sutra
I run as fast as possible.

I think this has questionable semantics, because none of the
interactions have been formalized. It could also be taken to mean:

lo nu mi bajra cu traji lo ka sutra

Which has a type error, since an event is not a sutra1.

Such examples exist all over the place, I think it's clear why something
has to be done about it, especially if one of Lojban's Goals is to
communicate with computers one day.

If anybody else is interested in discussing this - in my opinion - very
important topic, I'd be glad to exchange some ideas.

[la gleki]

I always intuitively hated sumtcita and {fi'o}. And the only thing that want is to have a clear explanation and solution.

How many gismu have to be affected? (of course i can mark all of them myself if I had a better understanding how to search for them)

If you can please write a short article to the wiki (to BPFK section or whatever).

[Michael Turniansky]

  Weirdly enough, a few days ago, before I read this message, I saw a sign on the campus of the hospital where I worked, stating "smoking not permitted beyond this point", and I was thinking that in lojban that would be "lo nu  sigva'u cu na se curmi zo'i ti"  Why zo'i?  Because it was specifically delineating the area closer to the buildings than that sign.   Of course, I didn't make that explicit, which I could do with something like "va ki lo spita dinju" at the beginning of the sentence

            --gejyspa

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