Fwd: [lojban-beginners] Re: Terminator for la

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Gleki Arxokuna

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Feb 1, 2016, 6:22:27 AM2/1/16
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By camxes experimental it's usually meant

not any other repos.

So you'd rather express yourself clearly what you mean by "camxes".


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>
Date: 2016-02-01 13:27 GMT+03:00
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Terminator for la
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-b...@googlegroups.com>




Le lundi 1 février 2016 06:34:25 UTC, la gleki a écrit :

2016-01-30 17:42 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
I recommend using camxes for teaching beginners, not the canxes-experimental that was deteriorated by la gleki.

I'm not aware it was deteriorated by me. Can you provide any explanation?



1. Your camxes-experimental parser does not parse even {la teris} written in basic lojban suitable for beginners, either the old version or the new one.

2. You said you would not select backward incompatible changes, but your camxes-experimental parser is incompatible with the official grammar for cmevla as selbrisle.

3. You destroyed all the ilmentufa parsers in the first two weeks of this year by modifying preproc.js.


Such a problem may occur again anytime in the future as long as you continue executing your dictatorship on the lojban.org server.

4. The solutions for the problem 1 and the problem 2 are incompatible, so you have no way to solve all the problems. 

Don't disturb anymore this thread for the defects of your camxes-experimental parser. If you have any objection, continue it on the general lojban list, not on the beginner's list.

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Ilmen

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Feb 1, 2016, 8:01:20 AM2/1/16
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The experimental Camxes-JS parser I initiated was by no mean intended to represent the official grammar of Lojban or any upgrade thereof; the experimental Camxes is there for testing implementations of various grammar change proposals, in order to check whether they are compatible with PEG or conflict with some other parts of the grammar, a little like a sandbox grammar; some of these changes might be approved to be part of official Lojban in the future, and others are either unlikely to be approved or are highly controversial.

The experimental Camxes-JS was thus by no mean intended to be able to parse the story called {la .teris.}. :-)

The official version of Camxes-JS should comply with whatever decisions the BPFK makes with regard to the grammar, and be updated accordingly. If you want to parse a text using the official grammar, please use the official version of Camxes-JS, and not the experimental version thereof.

As for other common dialects, they'd need their own dedicated parser, and I approve of Guskant's initiative to make Zantufa parsers for several of these dialects (for example the one used in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, which uses the Brivla-Cmevla Merger).

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

Gleki Arxokuna

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Feb 1, 2016, 10:03:40 AM2/1/16
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I suggest making a gh-pages branch of ilmentufa repo to make a stable accessible version of this app.
Relying on lojban.org isn't desirable in general.

Or maybe https://github.com/lojban/ilmentufa/ repo instead to get "lojban" substring in the url.

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guskant

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Feb 1, 2016, 10:34:06 AM2/1/16
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Le lundi 1 février 2016 13:01:20 UTC, Ilmen a écrit :
The experimental Camxes-JS parser I initiated was by no mean intended to represent the official grammar of Lojban or any upgrade thereof; the experimental Camxes is there for testing implementations of various grammar change proposals, in order to check whether they are compatible with PEG or conflict with some other parts of the grammar, a little like a sandbox grammar; some of these changes might be approved to be part of official Lojban in the future, and others are either unlikely to be approved or are highly controversial.

The experimental Camxes-JS was thus by no mean intended to be able to parse the story called {la .teris.}. :-)


I appreciate your initiative of experimental camxes-js parser.
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official soon. We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's course, because he has already concealed the evidence. The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org. Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki:


> 3. You destroyed all the ilmentufa parsers in the first two weeks of this
> year by modifying preproc.js.
>

I meant here the parsers of lojban.org URL, not the sources on Ilmen's repository.

If Gleki had maintained his experimental camxes-js parsers and other tools on a server other than lojban.org, I would not at all make any complaint. However, Gleki actually executes dictatorship on "vrici" server of lojban.org, as well as on some social media using official-pretending accounts.

I will prepare in near future a summary of those two points of the dictatorship of Gleki, that are the "vrici" server and the social media accounts, though I will do it on the private LLG list, not here, because I think most readers of lojban list are not interested in his dictatorship. Maybe I am the one and only victim of his dictatorship: I cannot join any lojbanic session because of his expelling me, a zantufa speaker, from Lojban community. I cannot even create the second period of {bripre jikca} because of his expelling me. I am so much hurt by his dictatorship. 

 

Gleki Arxokuna

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Feb 2, 2016, 1:39:15 AM2/2/16
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2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official soon.

It's simply not true.
 
We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's course, because he has already concealed the evidence.

Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic.
What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain nothing.
 
The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org.

You simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. not me. You as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to Lojban you like.

Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki:

You as well publish different unofficial resources on lojban.org

The only reason for me to publish it there was and is to provide a faster way of accessing them.

guskant

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Feb 2, 2016, 5:09:30 AM2/2/16
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Le mardi 2 février 2016 06:39:15 UTC, la gleki a écrit :

2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official soon.

It's simply not true.
 


There is no evidence that it's not true, while there are evidences that it's true.
Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use the wayback machine here:

The first archive above shows that your personal beginner's course deals with "modern dialects of Lojban". 

The second one shows that the followers of your personal beginner's course should use the parser http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is experimental camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences.

Besides, you made some modifications on the experimental camxes-js that were reflected on the parser on lojban.org.

Those three records are evidences for your dictatorship that you abused your authority on lojban.org by freely modified the tool on official server for your personal beginner's course.

 
We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's course, because he has already concealed the evidence.

Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic.
What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain nothing.
 


You gained "modern Lojban" suitable to your ideal, and deprived me of my citizenship of Lojban community. The evidences are below.

You differentiated Zantufa grammar on #lojban channel of IRC:
--- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015
10:43 < gleki> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma'oi GA i ma'i la zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se nitcu jecu ku'i binxo lo cmavo be ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi mo li'u ja lu ro mo ge cu mo gi mo li'u cu se stura lo simsa be tu'a lo catni gerna sei ku'i na'e dunli
10:43 < gleki> i di'u se cusku la guskant
10:43 < gleki> i ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau

This record and above three records are evidences for your egocentrism of asserting that I am not Lojbanist, while you keep some dialects that you permit to be modern Lojban.

 
The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org.

You simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. not me. You as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to Lojban you like.



I don't know about the whole administratorship on that server. However, at least your modifications on tools are all reflected on the web contents of lojban.org.
(I don't know why that folder is kept visible to public.)

 
Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki:

You as well publish different unofficial resources on lojban.org

The only reason for me to publish it there was and is to provide a faster way of accessing them.



I only modified pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when necessary, while you modified any tools on lojban.org as you like. You have the whole power on lojban.org web contents, and abused the power for your personal unofficial contents. I call it dictatorship, and I have no other suitable word to express your activities.


Gleki Arxokuna

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Feb 3, 2016, 4:18:31 AM2/3/16
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2016-02-02 13:09 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:


Le mardi 2 février 2016 06:39:15 UTC, la gleki a écrit :

2016-02-01 18:34 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:
The problem is that Gleki the dictator have been maintained the parser on the official lojban.org server so that it fit to his personal beginner's course, asserting that the grammar of experimental camxes-js is of new Lojban, as if it were de facto standard, or would be official soon.

It's simply not true.
 


There is no evidence that it's not true, while there are evidences that it's true.
Because you have concealed the evidences for that on lojban.org, I use the wayback machine here:

The first archive above shows that your personal beginner's course deals with "modern dialects of Lojban". 

Of course. I use users' feedback to improve it. It has been so and will be so. That's the nature of the course.

If a person uses this course then he/she sends feedback back.

All constructive criticism is taken into consideration. Yelling "it's wrong" is not taken into account.


The second one shows that the followers of your personal beginner's course should use the parser http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html , that is experimental camxes-js, for checking the grammar of their sentences.

The Crash Course is a draft. I wasn't careful enough to study this parser. By now, the "more official" ilmentufa parser is more or less fine so I changed to it.

Most "problems" with the course is due to lack of care because the language is big.

Not because of hidden intentions that don't exist.


Besides, you made some modifications on the experimental camxes-js that were reflected on the parser on lojban.org.

Those three records are evidences for your dictatorship that you abused your authority on lojban.org by freely modified the tool on official server for your personal beginner's course.

 
We can no more see that egocentric version of his personal beginner's course, because he has already concealed the evidence.

Because it's not egocentric and on the contrary altruistic.
What can even be egocentric in an activity for which personally I gain nothing.
 


You gained "modern Lojban" suitable to your ideal, and deprived me of my citizenship of Lojban community. The evidences are below.

You differentiated Zantufa grammar on #lojban channel of IRC:
--- Day changed Mon Aug 10 2015
10:43 < gleki> lo catni gerna cu te frica ma'oi GUhA ma'oi GA i ma'i la zantufa lo cmavo be ma'oi GUhA cu na'e se nitcu jecu ku'i binxo lo cmavo be ma'oi GA i lu ro mo cu ge mo gi mo li'u ja lu ro mo ge cu mo gi mo li'u cu se stura lo simsa be tu'a lo catni gerna sei ku'i na'e dunli
10:43 < gleki> i di'u se cusku la guskant
10:43 < gleki> i ja'o lo guskanbau cu banzu frica lo jbobau

This record and above three records are evidences for your egocentrism of asserting that I am not Lojbanist, while you keep some dialects that you permit to be modern Lojban.

Those are not my dialects. Those are from the community.

You banned yourself  from the community by not providing any feedback whereas a lot of people (at least 20) throughout the history of the development of the Crash Course has contributed to it.

If there are "dialects" in the Course and everyone thinks they are fine then I won't delete them.

However, when someone notices a problem and suggests a solution or others suggest a solution then the solution is implemented.
E.g. recently following users' feedback I removed experimental word {mi'ai} because users in general thought that it wasn't that useful.

If something else problematic is discovered then it will be reflected as it HAS ALWAYS been so.

When the number of issues drops to "not more than 1 issue once every two months" then IMO it will be time to call it "beta version" of the Course. But currently it's still a draft  (not that IMO any other courses in English are much more perfect).


 
The fact that Gleki's course reduced its egocentrism is an improved point, though his dictatorship will not stop as long as he continues administrating "vrici" server of lojban.org.

You simply don't understand who is administrating vrici. It's Robin. not me. You as well can get an account there and put everything relevant to Lojban you like.



I don't know about the whole administratorship on that server. However, at least your modifications on tools are all reflected on the web contents of lojban.org.
(I don't know why that folder is kept visible to public.)

 
Actually the problem occurred as I wrote to Gleki:

You as well publish different unofficial resources on lojban.org

The only reason for me to publish it there was and is to provide a faster way of accessing them.



I only modified pages of mediawiki with notes of "unofficial" when necessary, while you modified any tools on lojban.org as you like. You have the whole power on lojban.org web contents

No, it's not true. Those are your fantasies.
The folder mw.lojban.org/extensions/ is visible because it was faster to access them by users.
By various reasons it's indeed better to move them to other hostings.
But I had no time for doing so.
The whole code is open so everyone is free to do so.
DON'T COMPLAIN. INSTEAD DO BETTER.

 
, and abused the power for your personal unofficial contents. I call it dictatorship, and I have no other suitable word to express your activities.


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guskant

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Feb 3, 2016, 5:24:44 AM2/3/16
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Again and again, you changed the subject and would not answer to my remark. I don't complain about what you teach in your personal beginner's course. My remark is about your dictatorship of freely changing the tools on official website for your personal contents. You abuse your authority on official website for your personal contents. The tools on lojban.org don't contain any information about the responsibility of the tools themselves, and then no one doubt that the tools are maintained by the official body. The truth is that not the official body but you maintain the tools. 

I recommend that you maintain your tools as you like outside of official website. Don't abuse your authority on the contents of lojban.org. I appreciate that you finally informed us of the new page for ilmentufa parsers on lojban.github.io, where we all can join the maintenance and you cannot execute your dictatorship. Continue that way.

Gleki Arxokuna

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Mar 5, 2016, 2:01:45 PM3/5/16
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I will take out other courses later when I convert them to other formats. This will also mean that other people will no longer be able to edit them :( but as you wish, dictator.
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