[lojban] Re: Imperative connectives

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John Cowan

unread,
Mar 16, 2003, 12:31:18 AM3/16/03
to Nick Nicholas, loj...@yahoogroups.com
Nick Nicholas scripsit:

> By way of clarification, I wish to add:
>
> > <para>So <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">ko
> > sisti .inaja mi ceclygau</foreignphrase> would seem to mean
> > <quote>Stop or I'll
> > shoot</quote>, but actually means <quote>bring about a situation
> > whereby,
> > if you don't stop, I'll shoot</quote> &mdash; not quite the same
> > thing. The sense
> > of <quote>stop or I'll shoot</quote> is properly conveyed by the
> > phrase <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">.i lenu do na sisti .e'u cu
> > rinka lenu mi
> > ceclygau</foreignphrase> &mdash; similar to what we saw above.</para>
>
> Is this a misunderstanding? And if so, what *is* the Lojban for "Stop
> or I'll shoot"?

1) I think the idea of this addition is a good one.

2) The use of "rinka" suggests to me that the addressee is running while
holding (or attached to) a rope that is tied to the trigger, but that's
easily fixed.

3) I think the best translation is to lose the imperative, and say
do bazi sisti .ijonai mi ba ceclygau, "You will stop xor I will shoot".

--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan co...@ccil.org
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
--_The Hobbit_

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Nick Nicholas

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Mar 15, 2003, 11:44:13 PM3/15/03
to loj...@yahoogroups.com
(John, you'll need to answer this first.)

This is a question that has come up in the Level 0 material, which I am
now finalising. I am asking it here, rather than on jboske (because it
is supplicative --- clarification requested from John, who wrote the
piece in question --- and presumably an already settled issue) or in
private email (because I want the answer on record.)

The question is, what is the proper interpretation of logical
connectives within imperatives.

The current text is:

> How can Lojban logical connectives be used in imperative sentences?
> Logical connectives work properly only on complete sentences, and of
> those, only those which actually assert something.
>
> There is a special imperative pronoun
> <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">ko</foreignphrase>. This is a second
> person pronoun logically equivalent to <foreignphrase
> lang="art-lojban">do</foreignphrase>, the normal Lojban word for <quote
> role="gloss">you</quote>, but
> conveying an imperative sense. Thus, an imperative can be understood as
> commanding the listener to make the assertion true which results when
> <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">ko</foreignphrase> is replaced by
> <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">do</foreignphrase>.</para>
>
> For example, <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">ko
> sisti</foreignphrase> (<quote role="gloss">Stop!</quote>) is logically
> equivalent to <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">do sisti</foreignphrase>
> (<quote role="gloss">you stop</quote>), and pragmatically may be
> understood
> as <quote>Make <quote><foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">do
> sisti</foreignphrase></quote> true!</quote>. This allows logical
> connection to be
> used in imperatives without loss of clarity or generality; the logical
> connection applies to the assertion which is in effect embedded in the
> imperative.</para>


By way of clarification, I wish to add:

> <para>So <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">ko
> sisti .inaja mi ceclygau</foreignphrase> would seem to mean
> <quote>Stop or I'll
> shoot</quote>, but actually means <quote>bring about a situation
> whereby,
> if you don't stop, I'll shoot</quote> &mdash; not quite the same
> thing. The sense
> of <quote>stop or I'll shoot</quote> is properly conveyed by the
> phrase <foreignphrase lang="art-lojban">.i lenu do na sisti .e'u cu
> rinka lenu mi
> ceclygau</foreignphrase> &mdash; similar to what we saw above.</para>

Is this a misunderstanding? And if so, what *is* the Lojban for "Stop
or I'll shoot"?

###
Momenton senpretende paseman mi retenis kaj # Dr NICK NICHOLAS.
kultis kvazaux # French & Italian,
senhorlogxan elizeon # Univ. of Melbourne
(Dume: # ni...@unimelb.edu.au
[Victor Sadler, _Memkritiko_ 90] # http://www.opoudjis.net


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