{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode} vs. {brode no'oi broda} vs. Lesniewski vs. NLP

[Gleki Arxokuna]

Can anyone tell me the difference between 

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode}

What is more interesting that latros entered a new cmavo {no'oi} which is the same as {noi} but applied to selbri.

And {lo=zo'e noi}.

If so what's the difference between

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode} vs. {brode no'oi broda}?

Next.

In Lesniewski's logic "a ε b" means "Earth is a planet", "Alice is a human" but not vice versa.

In Natural Language Processing there is a predicate "instance-of" so that "New York is a city" turns into "New York is an-instance-of a city".

How should I understand the same stuff in Lojban?

[.arpis.]

Not that I'm an expert, but I'd expect that you understand it the same way.

Assuming for simplicity one-place predicates, you can view them as sets.

{lo broda cu brode} asserts that a thing which is a broda is a member
of the set of brode, while {lo brode cu broda} asserts the
corresponding fact.

{broda je brode} creates a new predicate which is a set intersection
of broda and brode.

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--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Jacob Errington]

On 11 August 2012 05:42, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can anyone tell me the difference between 

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode}

What is more interesting that latros entered a new cmavo {no'oi} which is the same as {noi} but applied to selbri.

And {lo=zo'e noi}.

If so what's the difference between

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode} vs. {brode no'oi broda}?

It has to do with quantification, emphasis, and context. {lo broda} refers to a broda that is presumably already in context, and for which it is already somewhat known to be a broda, given the nature of the underlying mechanism {zo'e noi broda}. However, {lo broda cu brode} and {broda je brode} are drastically different. The former says that there are some broda (that are known to be broda and that in context) that are also brode, whereas {broda je brode} is explicitly assigning the properties broda and brode to something in context. In both cases, there is something in context, but in the {je} example, it is not presumed that the thing in context being a broda is known by the listener, not to mention that the {lo} form creates a sort of symbol that loosely always refers to the same thing(s).

Anyway, the implicit je thing is something that I personally dislike about loksan, if that's what this is about.

mu'o

 

Next.

In Lesniewski's logic "a ε b" means "Earth is a planet", "Alice is a human" but not vice versa.

In Natural Language Processing there is a predicate "instance-of" so that "New York is a city" turns into "New York is an-instance-of a city".

How should I understand the same stuff in Lojban?

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone tell me the difference between
>
> {lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode}

I would say it's a matter of information structure, "lo" marking the
topic and "cu" the comment.
(See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic%E2%80%93comment )
In "lo nixli cu limna" you are talking about girls and saying that
they are swimmers, in "lo limna cu nixli" you are talking about
swimmers and saying that they are girls. "nixli je limna" is more
complex: you are talking about something implicit in the context, and
making the compound claim that they are girl swimmers.

> What is more interesting that latros entered a new cmavo {no'oi} which is
> the same as {noi} but applied to selbri.
> And {lo=zo'e noi}.
> If so what's the difference between
> {lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode} vs. {brode
> no'oi broda}?

"noi" introduces an separate clause, which is not part of the main
claim. It will usually be incidental information, or something the
speaker is taking for granted rather than advancing as a claim. The
noi-clause has its own independent illocutionary force too, so you
could make it a question or a command while the main clause is a claim
or vice versa.

> Next.
> In Lesniewski's logic "a ε b" means "Earth is a planet", "Alice is a human"
> but not vice versa.
> In Natural Language Processing there is a predicate "instance-of" so that
> "New York is a city" turns into "New York is an-instance-of a city".
>
> How should I understand the same stuff in Lojban?

It sounds like "me": "ko'a me ko'e"

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Gleki Arxokuna]

Well, so many answers. I have to adhere to jbocertu's, i.e. xorxes' position then.

On Saturday, August 11, 2012 6:51:14 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone tell me the difference between
>
> {lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode}

I would say it's a matter of information structure, "lo" marking the
topic and "cu" the comment.
(See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topic%E2%80%93comment )
In "lo nixli cu limna" you are talking about girls and saying that
they are swimmers, in "lo limna cu nixli" you are talking about
swimmers and saying that they are girls.

That makes sense. Now I can compare it with {zo'u} 

[Gleki Arxokuna]

On Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:53:58 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

On 11 August 2012 05:42, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can anyone tell me the difference between 

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode}

What is more interesting that latros entered a new cmavo {no'oi} which is the same as {noi} but applied to selbri.

And {lo=zo'e noi}.

If so what's the difference between

{lo broda cu brode} vs. {lo brode cu broda} vs. {broda je brode} vs. {brode no'oi broda}?

It has to do with quantification, emphasis, and context. {lo broda} refers to a broda that is presumably already in context, and for which it is already somewhat known to be a broda, given the nature of the underlying mechanism {zo'e noi broda}. However, {lo broda cu brode} and {broda je brode} are drastically different. The former says that there are some broda (that are known to be broda and that in context) that are also brode, whereas {broda je brode} is explicitly assigning the properties broda and brode to something in context. In both cases, there is something in context, but in the {je} example, it is not presumed that the thing in context being a broda is known by the listener, not to mention that the {lo} form creates a sort of symbol that loosely always refers to the same thing(s).

Anyway, the implicit je thing is something that I personally dislike about loksan, if that's what this is about.

loksan's feature is something that I decided myself without asking anyone.

If optional topic/comment markers are added to loksan default {je} construction can be modified to reflect xorxes' view on {lo .... ku}.

No advantages over Loccan2=Lojban, though.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 4:09 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, so many answers. I have to adhere to jbocertu's, i.e. xorxes' position
> then.

Notice that tsani's answer was essentially the same as mine, with
different words.