[lojban] Spelling of the name of the Lojban in Polish (matter of 'Lojban' or 'Lożban')
Marek Rogalski
polish.
I have been translating some stuff on tiki a few minutes ago and
encountered a problem which many of you could happen to find: what
spelling of word 'Lojban' should we use in Polish?
Since in the word 'Lojban' there is a sound represented by a letter
'ż' in Polish, spelling 'Lożban' would seem perfect for a phonetic
translation (which i think is better for a spoken language). Further
problem arise when we try to place new word somewhere in a sentence.
It needs proper flexical parts to be understood correctly. We end up
with declination of word 'Lożban':
M Lożban
D Lożnanu
C Lożbanowi
B Lożban
N (z) Lożbanem
M (o) Lożbanie
W Lożbanie!
Using this method (first polonizing letters and then declinating the
word according to polish grammar) we can speak and write about lojban
words (mainly 'Lojban' name) in Polish.
There is also other approach which is widely used (first of all on
polish 'Lojban' wiki page). In this approach we speak the same way as
in the previous. The only difference is writing word 'Lojban' as
'Lojban' which, by native polish speakers is read rather as 'Loyban'.
When we use this method we also have to declinate the word:
M Lojban
D Lojnanu
C Lojbanowi
B Lojban
N (z) Lojbanem
M (o) Lojbanie
W Lojbanie!
I have personally met three people who encountered Lojban before, and
(in most of the cases ;) ) their reading of the word sounded like
'loyban'.
Writing about Lojban needs consistence in its name (read or written).
What do you think should be official spelling of the Lojban name in
Polish?
--
Marek Rogalski
Pierre Abbat
I'd go with "Lożban". What does Polish do with names of remote languages,
which English normally takes with no "-ish" or "-ese" suffix, such as Dyirbal
or Dayak?
Is the dative (?) case supposed to have "n" instead of "b"?
Then there are words like "gismu" and "fu'ivla". If I were writing in Russian,
I'd treat them as undeclined (as I do in English); in particular, "gismu"
cannot be declined, because no declined noun ends in "u" in the nominative
singular. (The obvious example is "kenguru".) In Serbo-Croatian, though, they
decline "bungalo" as if it ended in a consonant.
Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
A. PIEKARSKI
"English'.
mu'o
totus
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Jorge Llambías
> Use 'Lożban'. After all, in Polish we say and write 'angielski' not
> "English'.
In Esperanto I use "Loĵbano".
In Spanish there isn't really any suitable replacement for the "j", so
I just use "Lojban", but inevitably that means many people end up
pronouncing it /loxban/.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
ctujvecli
this phoneme and we should take advantage since we can. Languages are
primarily oral in nature and writing should adapt. This will also make
it easier for Polish speaking nintadni...
Great discussion!
ki'e sai
mu'o mi'e ctujvecli
Krzysztof Sobolewski
> I'd go with "Lożban". What does Polish do with names of remote languages,
> which English normally takes with no "-ish" or "-ese" suffix, such as Dyirbal
> or Dayak?
I think it depends. If it requires transliteration, it gets transliterated phonetically, but if it's originally in Latin alphabet, it keeps original spelling. I'm not an expert though.
> Is the dative (?) case supposed to have "n" instead of "b"?
No, it's a typo :)
> Then there are words like "gismu" and "fu'ivla". If I were writing in Russian,
> I'd treat them as undeclined (as I do in English);
The same in Polish. There are many borrowings that behave this way, at least initially. Some of them become "polonized" with time (e.g. "radio") and acquire declined forms, but I don't think "gismu" is threatened with that ;)
--
Ecce Jezuch
"Hell is other people" - J-P. Sartre
Krzysztof Sobolewski
> Writing about Lojban needs consistence in its name (read or written).
> What do you think should be official spelling of the Lojban name in
> Polish?
I use "lojban" (lower case, too), even though it makes all my friends pronunce it wrong ;)
Also note that there are other sounds that could be spelled differently. But original jbopre chose one Latin spelling and I would stick with that, even for the name.
--
Ecce Jezuch
"She's going to change the world
But she can't change me" - C. Cornell
Lindar
In English we even mispronounce it, which is why I often jokingly call
it 'lodgeban'.
That being said, Japanese calls it rojiban, eo calls it lojxbano, UK
has called it lodgebun and lodgebin.
Therefore, call it whatever the hell you want in conversation, but
make mention of its actual name and pronunciation.
Pierre Abbat
> -> Lożban <- as per other comments English does not have a letter for
> this phoneme and we should take advantage since we can. Languages are
> primarily oral in nature and writing should adapt. This will also make
> it easier for Polish speaking nintadni...
How about "Lożbanski" or "po Lożbansku"? (Btw, what case is the latter? In
Russian it ends in "-ски", which doesn't match any form, except the plural
short form, which is used only predicatively.) Russian adds "-ский" to all
sorts of language names, and I know of only one non-Balto-Slavic language
which already ends in that, namely Burushaski.
Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.