A use for {me SUMTI mei}
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selpa'i
Apr 25, 2013, 1:27:42 PM4/25/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
The construct {me SUMTI mei} — unlike its sibling {me SUMTI moi} — does
not see any use. This is because there does not seem be an obvious,
useful interpretation for it.
As a reminder, this is what the {moi} construct means:
me SUMTI moi: x1 is SUMTI's among x2 sorted by rule/relationship x3.
For example:
(1) ta me mi moi [lo stizu]
"That is mine [my chair]."
I and some others use this regularly.
This interpretation makes sense, because {moi} deals with ordinality,
and so you can talk about the SUMTI'th position in a set of things. For
{mei}, which is about cardinality, it is unclear what it should mean.
Nevertheless, because {me SUMTI moi} is grammatical, so is {me SUMTI
mei}, obviously, since both {moi} and {mei} are members of selma'o MOI.
However, today tsani and I discussed a possible use for it, which
involves using SUMTI not as a "number", but as a unit.
First of all, we can express {PA mei} in terms of {klani}:
x1 PA mei x2 : x1 me x2 gi'e klani li PA lo se gradu be x2
which means "x1 is among x2 and measures PA counting by x2's unit". For
example:
(2) lo va prenu cu so mei lo tadni
"Those people are nine counting off students."
"Those people are nine students."
(One might argue that {zilkancu} could be used in place of {klani}, but
{klani} is more flexible. After all it's the basic quantity predicate.
In any case, this isn't central to the idea.)
Now, our idea for {me SUMTI mei} involves using SUMTI in place of
klani3/zilkancu3, as opposed to the quantifier place (klani2). The first
approximation was something for something like {lo me lo kabri mei} to
mean "a cupful/a cup-like quantity".
Since a {me SUMTI MOI} construct is inherently ad-hoc, there doesn't
appear to be a reason to assume that "a cup-like quantity" necessarily
refers to the content of a cup as opposed to, say, its surface area or
its weight. To account for this contextual vagueness, we could look for
a way to introduce a {pe/ne/co'e} into the definition of {me SUMTI mei}
if necessary.
Maybe the following is enough:
x1 me SUMTI mei x2 : x1 klani x2 lo se gradu be SUMTI
Also, as {me SUMTI moi} carries a sense of {zo'e noi co'e SUMTI}, so too
could {me SUMTI mei} carry a sense of {zo'e noi klani co'e SUMTI} or
similar.
This is all very fresh, so some rough parts will likely have to be
ironed out and the presentation might seem a bit chaotic, but maybe
someone can approve of the general idea.
Finally, some examples:
(3) .au mi te vecnu lo me lo xance mei
"I would like to buy a handful."
(4) cu'u lo pulji lo zdani cu jelca co'u lo nu lo me lo baktu mei be li
100 cu ba'o zilre'o lo fagri
"According to the police, the house stopped burning after 100
bucket-loads of water had been cast on the fire."
(5) lo xabju be lo bi'u nai cmatca cu ta'e kansi'u lo nu bevri lo narge
me lo vo xance be lo re prenu be'o poi se tarmi lo julne mei li so'o
"The people living in that village habitually carry together
several heaps of nuts, each heap being of the size of a net that is
formed by two people's four hands." (Almost choked on that English)
Sentence (5) tries to demonstrates the kind of case where a -lai lujvo
would not easily be able to replace {me SUMTI mei}, which is so useful
for ad-hoc situations.
Impact on past usage: None. {me SUMTI mei} has never been used before.
This proposal would take a grammatical, but so far nonsensical,
production of the grammar and assign to it a useful meaning.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
not see any use. This is because there does not seem be an obvious,
useful interpretation for it.
As a reminder, this is what the {moi} construct means:
me SUMTI moi: x1 is SUMTI's among x2 sorted by rule/relationship x3.
For example:
(1) ta me mi moi [lo stizu]
"That is mine [my chair]."
I and some others use this regularly.
This interpretation makes sense, because {moi} deals with ordinality,
and so you can talk about the SUMTI'th position in a set of things. For
{mei}, which is about cardinality, it is unclear what it should mean.
Nevertheless, because {me SUMTI moi} is grammatical, so is {me SUMTI
mei}, obviously, since both {moi} and {mei} are members of selma'o MOI.
However, today tsani and I discussed a possible use for it, which
involves using SUMTI not as a "number", but as a unit.
First of all, we can express {PA mei} in terms of {klani}:
x1 PA mei x2 : x1 me x2 gi'e klani li PA lo se gradu be x2
which means "x1 is among x2 and measures PA counting by x2's unit". For
example:
(2) lo va prenu cu so mei lo tadni
"Those people are nine counting off students."
"Those people are nine students."
(One might argue that {zilkancu} could be used in place of {klani}, but
{klani} is more flexible. After all it's the basic quantity predicate.
In any case, this isn't central to the idea.)
Now, our idea for {me SUMTI mei} involves using SUMTI in place of
klani3/zilkancu3, as opposed to the quantifier place (klani2). The first
approximation was something for something like {lo me lo kabri mei} to
mean "a cupful/a cup-like quantity".
Since a {me SUMTI MOI} construct is inherently ad-hoc, there doesn't
appear to be a reason to assume that "a cup-like quantity" necessarily
refers to the content of a cup as opposed to, say, its surface area or
its weight. To account for this contextual vagueness, we could look for
a way to introduce a {pe/ne/co'e} into the definition of {me SUMTI mei}
if necessary.
Maybe the following is enough:
x1 me SUMTI mei x2 : x1 klani x2 lo se gradu be SUMTI
Also, as {me SUMTI moi} carries a sense of {zo'e noi co'e SUMTI}, so too
could {me SUMTI mei} carry a sense of {zo'e noi klani co'e SUMTI} or
similar.
This is all very fresh, so some rough parts will likely have to be
ironed out and the presentation might seem a bit chaotic, but maybe
someone can approve of the general idea.
Finally, some examples:
(3) .au mi te vecnu lo me lo xance mei
"I would like to buy a handful."
(4) cu'u lo pulji lo zdani cu jelca co'u lo nu lo me lo baktu mei be li
100 cu ba'o zilre'o lo fagri
"According to the police, the house stopped burning after 100
bucket-loads of water had been cast on the fire."
(5) lo xabju be lo bi'u nai cmatca cu ta'e kansi'u lo nu bevri lo narge
me lo vo xance be lo re prenu be'o poi se tarmi lo julne mei li so'o
"The people living in that village habitually carry together
several heaps of nuts, each heap being of the size of a net that is
formed by two people's four hands." (Almost choked on that English)
Sentence (5) tries to demonstrates the kind of case where a -lai lujvo
would not easily be able to replace {me SUMTI mei}, which is so useful
for ad-hoc situations.
Impact on past usage: None. {me SUMTI mei} has never been used before.
This proposal would take a grammatical, but so far nonsensical,
production of the grammar and assign to it a useful meaning.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
Jacob Errington
Apr 30, 2013, 9:33:36 AM4/30/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
{me SUMTI mei} is awesome and it seems like we can nicely gloss it as "x1 is an amount (on an unspecified scale) represented by SUMTI. IMO, however, the x2 should simply be the type of stuff being quantified. This makes it hold more consistently with the BPFK definition of numeric mei. Indeed, rather than numerically quantifying some x2s, which is what the numeric version does, we can vaguely quantify by comparison with another object.
e.g. {.i mi pinxe lo me lo xance mei be lo djacu} {.i mi citka lo me lo palte mei be lo cakla}
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
la gleki
Apr 30, 2013, 10:15:33 AM4/30/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:33:36 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
{me SUMTI mei} is awesome and it seems like we can nicely gloss it as "x1 is an amount (on an unspecified scale) represented by SUMTI. IMO, however, the x2 should simply be the type of stuff being quantified. This makes it hold more consistently with the BPFK definition of numeric mei. Indeed, rather than numerically quantifying some x2s, which is what the numeric version does, we can vaguely quantify by comparison with another object.e.g. {.i mi pinxe lo me lo xance mei be lo djacu} {.i mi citka lo me lo palte mei be lo cakla}
looks like Lojban finally got noun quantifiers (tanru were too vague).
Ilmen
Apr 30, 2013, 10:38:50 AM4/30/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
ni'o coi ro do
.i mi kucli lo du'u ma kau xe fanva fi la .lojban. fe lo lojbo gerna valsi po'u zoi gy. term .gy. goi ko'a .i mu'a, zo mi .e lu lo co'e ku li'u .e lu ca zo'e li'u .e lu fa zo'e li'u .e lu na ku li'u cu se gunma lo klesi poi se cmene ko'a
.i fi'onai natfe lo se djuno be mi, lo jbobau na ponse pe'a ru'e lo mapti valsi vau .uinai ru'e .i ga je'u na go'i ginai .ei ma'a finti lo valsi vau .ie pei .i mi gleki da'i lo nu mi junbi'o lo .a'u se stidi be do
ni'o mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
____________
Hello everybòdy,
I wonder how to trànslate in Lojban the grammátical word "term", which refers to the syntáctical class encómpassing {mi}, {lo co'e ku}, {ca zo'e}, {fa zo'e} and {na ku}.
As far as I know, Lojban have no correspónding word. If it actually has none, we should create one. I'd like to hear your suggéstions. :-)
Best regárds,
Ilmen.
.i mi kucli lo du'u ma kau xe fanva fi la .lojban. fe lo lojbo gerna valsi po'u zoi gy. term .gy. goi ko'a .i mu'a, zo mi .e lu lo co'e ku li'u .e lu ca zo'e li'u .e lu fa zo'e li'u .e lu na ku li'u cu se gunma lo klesi poi se cmene ko'a
.i fi'onai natfe lo se djuno be mi, lo jbobau na ponse pe'a ru'e lo mapti valsi vau .uinai ru'e .i ga je'u na go'i ginai .ei ma'a finti lo valsi vau .ie pei .i mi gleki da'i lo nu mi junbi'o lo .a'u se stidi be do
ni'o mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
____________
Hello everybòdy,
I wonder how to trànslate in Lojban the grammátical word "term", which refers to the syntáctical class encómpassing {mi}, {lo co'e ku}, {ca zo'e}, {fa zo'e} and {na ku}.
As far as I know, Lojban have no correspónding word. If it actually has none, we should create one. I'd like to hear your suggéstions. :-)
Best regárds,
Ilmen.
selpa'i
Apr 30, 2013, 11:46:36 AM4/30/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
la tsani cu cusku di'e
> {me SUMTI mei} is awesome...
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
> ... and it seems like we can nicely gloss it as
doesn't parallel {PA mei}. This one does, however, for the price of no
longer being able to "quantify the quantity". Of course you can instead
do this directly via SUMTI itself, so it's not a real problem I guess.
> Indeed, rather than numerically quantifying some x2s, which is what
> the numeric version does, we can vaguely quantify by comparison with
> another object.
>
> e.g. {.i mi pinxe lo me lo xance mei be lo djacu} {.i mi citka lo me lo
> palte mei be lo cakla}
Yes, that is a very practical place structure, and it has the same
structure as {me SUMTI moi}, which is a big plus in my opinion.
I would still like to work out a Lojban definition, though.
Interestingly, it is possible to express {me SUMTI moi} in a way that
gets rid of ordinality, using {ckini}:
x1 me SUMTI moi x2 boi x3 : x1 me x2 gi'e ckini SUMTI x3
And how about:
x1 me SUMTI mei x2 :
x1 me x2 gi'e mapti lo co'e be SUMTI lo ka ce'u klani ma kau zo'e/zi'o?
I introduced {lo co'e} because klani2 must be a number and the
contextual vagueness needs to be mirrored in the definition. {lo co'e}
would stand for things like {lo canlu} or {lo sefta} etc, which is left
up to context. What do you think?
Also, now that we apparently have a use for both {me SUMTI moi} and {me
SUMTI mei}, we should finish the job and give the rest of MOI an equal
treatment. That is, we ought to look for meanings for {me SUMTI si'e},
{me SUMTI va'e} and {me SUMTI cu'o} or else we are left with an ugly
hole in this paradigm.
> {me SUMTI mei} is awesome...
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
> ... and it seems like we can nicely gloss it as
> "x1 is an amount (on an unspecified scale) represented by SUMTI. IMO,
> however, the x2 should simply be the type of stuff being quantified.
> This makes it hold more consistently with the BPFK definition of numeric
> mei.
Yes, that is exactly the problem I had with my proposed definition; it
> however, the x2 should simply be the type of stuff being quantified.
> This makes it hold more consistently with the BPFK definition of numeric
> mei.
doesn't parallel {PA mei}. This one does, however, for the price of no
longer being able to "quantify the quantity". Of course you can instead
do this directly via SUMTI itself, so it's not a real problem I guess.
> Indeed, rather than numerically quantifying some x2s, which is what
> the numeric version does, we can vaguely quantify by comparison with
> another object.
>
> e.g. {.i mi pinxe lo me lo xance mei be lo djacu} {.i mi citka lo me lo
> palte mei be lo cakla}
structure as {me SUMTI moi}, which is a big plus in my opinion.
I would still like to work out a Lojban definition, though.
Interestingly, it is possible to express {me SUMTI moi} in a way that
gets rid of ordinality, using {ckini}:
x1 me SUMTI moi x2 boi x3 : x1 me x2 gi'e ckini SUMTI x3
And how about:
x1 me SUMTI mei x2 :
I introduced {lo co'e} because klani2 must be a number and the
contextual vagueness needs to be mirrored in the definition. {lo co'e}
would stand for things like {lo canlu} or {lo sefta} etc, which is left
up to context. What do you think?
Also, now that we apparently have a use for both {me SUMTI moi} and {me
SUMTI mei}, we should finish the job and give the rest of MOI an equal
treatment. That is, we ought to look for meanings for {me SUMTI si'e},
{me SUMTI va'e} and {me SUMTI cu'o} or else we are left with an ugly
hole in this paradigm.
Michael Turniansky
May 22, 2013, 10:07:01 AM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
secau lo nu mi spuda lo preti be fi do kei ku mi se cinri lo nu do pilno lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode li'u jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
--gejyspa
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selpa'i
May 22, 2013, 10:39:48 AM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
la gejyspa cu cusku di'e
ja'o lo selsku be la .ilmen. zo'u: �lu fi'onai natfe lo se djuno be mi,
lo jbobau na ponse pe'a ru'e lo mapti valsi li'u� simsa �lu lo se djuno
be mi na natfe lo du'u lo jbobau na ponse lo mapti valsi li'u� .i la'a
la .ilmen. cu jinvi lo simsa
ni'o ta'o doi la .ilmen. �lu lo jbobau na te valsi fi lo mapti li'u� pei
> secau lo nu mi spuda lo preti be fi do kei ku mi se cinri lo nu do pilno
> lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode
> li'u jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
ni'o pe'i �lu fi'o nai broda li'u� smudu'i �lu fi'o na broda li'u� .i
> lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode
> li'u jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
ja'o lo selsku be la .ilmen. zo'u: �lu fi'onai natfe lo se djuno be mi,
lo jbobau na ponse pe'a ru'e lo mapti valsi li'u� simsa �lu lo se djuno
be mi na natfe lo du'u lo jbobau na ponse lo mapti valsi li'u� .i la'a
la .ilmen. cu jinvi lo simsa
ni'o ta'o doi la .ilmen. �lu lo jbobau na te valsi fi lo mapti li'u� pei
la gleki
May 22, 2013, 10:51:09 AM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 6:39:48 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
la gejyspa cu cusku di'e
> secau lo nu mi spuda lo preti be fi do kei ku mi se cinri lo nu do pilno
> lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode
> li'u jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
ni'o pe'i �lu fi'o nai broda li'u� smudu'i �lu fi'o na broda li'u� .i
ja'o lo selsku be la .ilmen. zo'u: �lu fi'onai natfe lo se djuno be mi,
lo jbobau na ponse pe'a ru'e lo mapti valsi li'u� simsa �lu lo se djuno
be mi na natfe lo du'u lo jbobau na ponse lo mapti valsi li'u� .i la'a
la .ilmen. cu jinvi lo simsa
ni'o ta'o doi la .ilmen. �lu lo jbobau na te valsi fi lo mapti li'u
ma satci smuni zo'oi term i ma valsi la'oi term lo drata
� pei
selpa'i
May 22, 2013, 11:46:49 AM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
la gleki cu cusku di'e
zvati .i ki'u bo so'a ka'e se zvati be lo sumti cu ka'e se zvati lo
sumsmi .i mu'a �lu ko'a pe ko'e li'u� fa'u �lu ko'a pe na ku li'u� fa'u
�lu ko'a pe se pi'o ko'e li'u� fa'u zo'e si'a li'o .i ku'i zo coi mu'a
tcita lo po'o sumti .e nai lo sumsmi .i ja'o simsa gi'e nai dunli vau lo
sumti lo ka ce'u ma kau ka'e zvati .i se ki'u bo mi stidi tu'a zo sumsmi
.e nai zo sumdu'i
> ma satci smuni zo'oi term i ma valsi la'oi term lo drata
mi stidi tu'a zo sumsmi .i x1 simsa lo sumti lo ka ce'u ma kau ka'e
zvati .i ki'u bo so'a ka'e se zvati be lo sumti cu ka'e se zvati lo
sumsmi .i mu'a �lu ko'a pe ko'e li'u� fa'u �lu ko'a pe na ku li'u� fa'u
�lu ko'a pe se pi'o ko'e li'u� fa'u zo'e si'a li'o .i ku'i zo coi mu'a
tcita lo po'o sumti .e nai lo sumsmi .i ja'o simsa gi'e nai dunli vau lo
sumti lo ka ce'u ma kau ka'e zvati .i se ki'u bo mi stidi tu'a zo sumsmi
.e nai zo sumdu'i
Ilmen
May 22, 2013, 1:27:02 PM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
ni'o
coi do'u .ui
.i je'u mi pu co'u .u'i morji lo du'u mi fi do'i te preti co ciska fi ba'e le selmriste
ni'o doi la gejyspa, «lu fi'o nai broda li'u» zo'u: mi tugni la selpa'i lo du'u smuni dunli «lu fi'o na broda li'u» .i pu za ku la xalbo fi mi stidi fe lo du'u .e'u fanva «zoi gy. as far as I know .gy.» fu «lu fi'o natfe no se djuno be mi li'u» .i mi nelci ri .i pe'i zo'e ne zo nai cu smuni simsa .ie pei
ni'o doi la selpa'i, lo nu pilno «lu te valsi li'u» cu xamgu .u'a .i ca lo nu mi ciska do'i kei mi na pensi tu'a zo valsi .i mi ckire do lo nu stidi vau .ui
.i je'u mi pu co'u .u'i morji lo du'u mi fi do'i te preti co ciska fi ba'e le selmriste
ni'o doi la gejyspa, «lu fi'o nai broda li'u» zo'u: mi tugni la selpa'i lo du'u smuni dunli «lu fi'o na broda li'u» .i pu za ku la xalbo fi mi stidi fe lo du'u .e'u fanva «zoi gy. as far as I know .gy.» fu «lu fi'o natfe no se djuno be mi li'u» .i mi nelci ri .i pe'i zo'e ne zo nai cu smuni simsa .ie pei
ni'o doi la selpa'i, lo nu pilno «lu te valsi li'u» cu xamgu .u'a .i ca lo nu mi ciska do'i kei mi na pensi tu'a zo valsi .i mi ckire do lo nu stidi vau .ui
ni'o mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
______________________________________________
ni'o la selpa'i pu ciska lo cnita be dei
ni'o la selpa'i pu ciska lo cnita be dei
Pierre Abbat
May 22, 2013, 10:58:24 AM5/22/13
to loj...@googlegroups.com
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 10:07:01 Michael Turniansky wrote:
> secau lo nu mi spuda lo preti be fi do kei ku mi se cinri lo nu do pilno
> lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode li'u
> jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
la jbofi'e .e la .camxes. zanru lu ki'unai le tricu mi klama li'u .enai lu
> secau lo nu mi spuda lo preti be fi do kei ku mi se cinri lo nu do pilno
> lo'u fi'onai le'u .i ma smuni ri do .i xu lu fi'o nai broda lo brode li'u
> jibni lu fi'o broda no da poi brode ku'o li'u lo ka se smuni
fi'onai krinu le tricu mi klama li'u .enai lu fi'o krinu fe'unai le tricu mi
klama li'u
mu'omi'e .pier.
--
lo ponse be lo mruli ku po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
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