Re: [lojban] Imaginary worlds (was su'u)
John Cowan
> Is the Statue of Liberty made of marble?
Well, perhaps in a possible world in which marble, rather than being
calcium carbonate, is in fact copper.
> My (excellent) answer is that it 99% is; i.e. it satisfies 99%
> of criteria for SoL-hood (including having no close rivals
> for SoLhood), but falls down on the "made of marble"
> criterion.
Well, I would rather say that it is the *counterpart* of the
S of L, but not the same as it.
Question: Suppose that Barbara Bush had dedicated herself to
raising puppies rather than children. Would you be willing
to have a p.w. in which the President of the United States
was (even 95%) a black Labrador?
--
There is / one art || John Cowan <jco...@reutershealth.com>
no more / no less || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein
Jorge Llambias
la djan cusku di'e
>The ship of Theseus.
Right, thanks!
>But this case is not that
>case. We are talking about whether "T is (and always has been)
>made entirely of plastic" is a possible world (given that T is
>in fact made of wood and always has been). I think it's a self-
>contradiction.
But then so is "T is (and always has been) black" given that T
is in fact brown and always has been. T could have been painted
black, but then it could also have been changed to plastic.
The difference would seem to be one of degree only, since the
change of material is more cumbersome, but other than that both
properties could be taken as contingent.
co'o mi'e xorxes
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And Rosta
#And Rosta wrote:
#> Is the Statue of Liberty made of marble?
#
#Well, perhaps in a possible world in which marble, rather than being
#calcium carbonate, is in fact copper.
O that's right; I'd forgotten it's green.
#> My (excellent) answer is that it 99% is; i.e. it satisfies 99%
#> of criteria for SoL-hood (including having no close rivals
#> for SoLhood), but falls down on the "made of marble"
#> criterion.
#
#Well, I would rather say that it is the *counterpart* of the
#S of L, but not the same as it.
I have no problem with that. I don't want to say that the
granite SoL is the same as the RealWorld SoL; I
want to say that the RW SoL has 100% SoLhood and
the granite SoL has '95%' SoLhood. Indeed the two
SoLs are counterparts, but the rationale for their
being counterparts is their relatively high scores on
SoLhood.
#Question: Suppose that Barbara Bush had dedicated herself to
#raising puppies rather than children. Would you be willing
#to have a p.w. in which the President of the United States
#was (even 95%) a black Labrador?
I certainly would not, but I would be willing to have a world
in which the primary candidate for GWhood is a black
labrador.
In the RW, nobody has 100% HenryHiggins-hood, but
nonetheless Daniel Jones is the primary candidate for
HenryHiggins-hood. (HH from Pygmalion, DJ first professor
of phonetics at University College London.)
--And.
Jorge Llambias
la djan cusku di'e
>Consider Kripke's table T, which is brown and made of wood. We can
>have a possible world in which T is black because someone painted it.
>But can we have a world in which T itself, that very table, was
>made of another material?
What if we did to the table what those ancient Greeks did to
that ship (I don't remember the name). We replace one small
piece of wood by a piece of plastic, the table is still the table,
and we keep doing that until all the wood has been replaced
by plastic.
John Cowan
> >We are talking about whether "T is (and always has been)
> >made entirely of plastic" is a possible world (given that T is
> >in fact made of wood and always has been). I think it's a self-
> >contradiction.
>
> But then so is "T is (and always has been) black" given that T
> is in fact brown and always has been.
False, but *not* self-contradictory.
> T could have been painted
> black, but then it could also have been changed to plastic.
But I am not talking about a possible world in which T was changed
to plastic, but a possible world (or is it possible?) in which
T has *always* been plastic while being the self-same table.
I contend that this world is *not* possible.
--
John Cowan co...@ccil.org
One art/there is/no less/no more/All things/to do/with sparks/galore
--Douglas Hofstadter
And Rosta
#> We replace one small
#> piece of wood by a piece of plastic, the table is still the table,
#> and we keep doing that until all the wood has been replaced
#> by plastic.
#
#Well, perhaps it is and perhaps it isn't. But this case is not that
#case. We are talking about whether "T is (and always has been)
#made entirely of plastic" is a possible world (given that T is
i#n fact made of wood and always has been). I think it's a self-
#contradiction.
Is the Statue of Liberty made of marble? Well imagine a world
exactly like this one, except it was made of granite (the
protectix of huddled masses I mean, not the world). (Please
silently correct any masonry errors.) Is it, or isn't it, the S. of L.?
My (excellent) answer is that it 99% is; i.e. it satisfies 99%
of criteria for SoL-hood (including having no close rivals
for SoLhood), but falls down on the "made of marble"
criterion.
--And.
Pierre Abbat
>> piece of wood by a piece of plastic, the table is still the table,
It's my grandfather's axe. It's had four handles and three blades, but it's my
grandfather's axe.
phma
Jorge Llambias
la djan cusku di'e
>But I am not talking about a possible world in which T was changed
>to plastic, but a possible world (or is it possible?) in which
>T has *always* been plastic while being the self-same table.
>I contend that this world is *not* possible.
I fail to see why that world is not possible whereas a world
in which T has always been black while being the self-same
table is possible. If it was never changed to black, how
could it be the same brown table? At some point someone had
to decide whether they used black or brown paint, just as
at some point someone had to decide whether to use wood or
plastic. Is the paint contingent because it comes at the end
of the process of making the table, and the material essential
because it comes at an earlier stage?
John Cowan
> What if we did to the table what those ancient Greeks did to
> that ship (I don't remember the name).
The ship of Theseus.
> We replace one small
> piece of wood by a piece of plastic, the table is still the table,
> and we keep doing that until all the wood has been replaced
> by plastic.
Well, perhaps it is and perhaps it isn't. But this case is not that
case. We are talking about whether "T is (and always has been)
made entirely of plastic" is a possible world (given that T is
in fact made of wood and always has been). I think it's a self-
contradiction.
John Cowan
> I fail to see why that world is not possible whereas a world
> in which T has always been black while being the self-same
> table is possible. If it was never changed to black, how
> could it be the same brown table? At some point someone had
> to decide whether they used black or brown paint, just as
> at some point someone had to decide whether to use wood or
> plastic.
Ah, I wasn't clear. The brown is the natural color of the wood;
the black is not. So it is the same table though wrapped in a skin
of black paint. I agree that if you consider T to be painted brown,
then your argument holds.
John Cowan
> Would you be willing
> to have a p.w. in which the President of the United States
> was (even 95%) a black Labrador?
I don't mean, of course, that a dog is sitting in the
Oval Office there, but rather that the closest correspondent
to our George W. Bush is a dog.