Learning cmavo

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Remo Dentato

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Oct 8, 2010, 5:58:19 PM10/8/10
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I'm having a lot of difficulties to remember all those cmavo and their usage.
Since I'm a rather "visual" person, I'm trying to create reference
material that I can use to memorize them. I found the flashcard
approach a little bit boring and I can't concentrate enough while
using Smart.fm and similar tools.

Some of you might remember one attempt of mine on the time/space
cmavo: http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1254854442265.pdf
(that was intended to be printed on the two sides of an A4 sheet and
then folded as a booklet).

I've now tried a different approach creating a "periodic table of
pro-sumti and pro-bridi":
http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1286574078318.pdf
should it prove useful I'll try with other periodic tables (e.g. the
table of modals!).

Different people learn using different strategies and what is a good
visual representation for me, could be completely misleading for
others!
So this may or may not be helpful for you. I just post it in case
someone alse might benefit of it.

Suggestions, corrections and feedback are always very welcome.

remo.d

Jonathan Jones

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:17:52 PM10/8/10
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It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size. Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?

Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?

I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Jorge Llambías

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:25:11 PM10/8/10
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On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've now tried a different approach creating a "periodic table of
> pro-sumti and pro-bridi":
> http://jbotcan.org/ideas/src/1286574078318.pdf
> should it prove useful I'll try with other periodic tables (e.g. the
> table of modals!).

That's cute. :)

You have a typo: "coi" should be "cei".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Remo Dentato

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:29:12 PM10/8/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na
> pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size.
> Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

You could scale and print that PDF on a A3 sheet or even larger and
you should not notice any scaling effect. I can surely produce a png
for that but that would be much bigger and not better resolution-wise.

> Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?

My understanding is that {vi} {va} and {vu} are space/time cmavo and
are not valid as pro-sumti. When we say {le vi plise}, I'm really
saying "the apple that is here close to me" rather than "this apple".
Am I wrong?

> Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?

No specific reason, I can easily swap them.

> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?

I'm not sure. I initially hadn't it at all, I probably should
understand it better. I know see it as just meaning "is the same of".

Remo Dentato

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:30:38 PM10/8/10
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2010/10/9 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>:

> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You have a typo: "coi" should be "cei".
>
Ops! Going to fix it. And I just spotted that I missed {ybu} in the lerfu list.

Thanks.

Jonathan Jones

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:54:03 PM10/8/10
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On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na
> pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size.
> Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

You could scale and print that PDF on a A3 sheet or even larger and
you should not notice any scaling effect. I can surely produce a png
for that but that would be much bigger and not better resolution-wise.

Well, I meant for people like me who prefer the digital version. (I like trees. Printing means using paper. Using paper means less trees.)

Then again, the best format for use is probably html....
 
> Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?
My understanding is that {vi} {va} and {vu} are space/time cmavo and
are not valid as pro-sumti. When we say {le vi plise}, I'm really
saying "the apple that is here close to me" rather than "this apple".
Am I wrong?

> Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?
No specific reason, I can easily swap them.

> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?
I'm not sure. I initially hadn't it at all, I probably should
understand it better. I know see it as just meaning "is the same of".

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Jonathan Jones

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Oct 8, 2010, 6:54:33 PM10/8/10
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On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na
> pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size.
> Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

You could scale and print that PDF on a A3 sheet or even larger and
you should not notice any scaling effect. I can surely produce a png
for that but that would be much bigger and not better resolution-wise.

Well, I meant for people like me who prefer the digital version. (I like trees. Printing means using paper. Using paper means less trees.)

Then again, the best format for use is probably html....

for us. not for use. ug. Stupid keyboards....
 
 
> Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?
My understanding is that {vi} {va} and {vu} are space/time cmavo and
are not valid as pro-sumti. When we say {le vi plise}, I'm really
saying "the apple that is here close to me" rather than "this apple".
Am I wrong?

> Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?
No specific reason, I can easily swap them.

> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?
I'm not sure. I initially hadn't it at all, I probably should
understand it better. I know see it as just meaning "is the same of".

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Pierre Abbat

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Oct 8, 2010, 7:02:21 PM10/8/10
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On Friday 08 October 2010 18:17:52 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na
> pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size.
> Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

I suggest SVG, which is a vector format. PNG would have stairsteps or blurs on
the letters.

> Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?

{vi va vu} are tense markers.

> Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?
>
> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?

It's in the same selma'o, so it should have the same color. Also "zi'o" is a
pro-sumti, but is colored like an operator.

Also "brodi" appears thrice.

Pierre

--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

Jonathan Jones

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Oct 8, 2010, 7:09:11 PM10/8/10
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On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2010 18:17:52 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> It's interesting. Due to the nature of the presentation, I don't think na
> pdf is the right format, unless you are capable of changing the page size.
> Even then, I'd opt for a high-res png, or other picture format.

I suggest SVG, which is a vector format. PNG would have stairsteps or blurs on
the letters.

Quite. I wish I had thought of it.
 
> Why do you have {ti ta tu} but not {vi va vu}?

{vi va vu} are tense markers.

> Why are it-6 to it-10 {fo'a - fo'u} above it-1 to it-5 {ko'a - ko'u}?
>
> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?

It's in the same selma'o, so it should have the same color. Also "zi'o" is a
pro-sumti, but is colored like an operator.

Also "brodi" appears thrice.

Pierre

--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
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Remo Dentato

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Oct 8, 2010, 7:25:36 PM10/8/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> I suggest SVG, which is a vector format. PNG would have stairsteps or blurs on
> the letters.
I had started doing this with Inkscape but I was too slow with it. Let
me check how good is OpenOffice at exporting to SVG. Of course if
anyone is interested I can handover the OOo Draw file.

>> I thought {du} was a pro-bridi?
>
> It's in the same selma'o, so it should have the same color. Also "zi'o" is a
> pro-sumti, but is colored like an operator.

I'm not just grouping by slema'o or I would get any more help.

My understanding is {zi'o} is special in that when used it does not
represent a sumti, rather it cancel the sumti places modifying the
meaning of the brivla itself. If I got {zi'o} correctly, if I say
{zi'o klama xyboi zy.} I'm not saying that "nobody is going to x from
y" but "there's a path to x from y". Hence it's not colored as other
pro-sumti.

{du} is different. I understand it as a brivla. I can't get why it has
been defined as a cmavo.

> Also "brodi" appears thrice.
FIxed! thanks

Remo

Remo Dentato

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Oct 9, 2010, 2:18:41 AM10/9/10
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Ok, I fixed the errors you spot, changed {du} to a pro-bridi (but not
{zi'e} to a pro-sumti), made a SVG and a PNG (and also kept the pdf,
of course).

Now the next question would be: should I add it to the lojban.org
material or should I make it live on jbotcan?

remo

.alyn.post.

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Oct 9, 2010, 11:26:24 AM10/9/10
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I would find it easier to work on and extend if it were on
lojban.org. I request you place it there.

And, very very nice. I like it a lot.

-Alan

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.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

Remo Dentato

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Oct 9, 2010, 3:21:35 PM10/9/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:26 PM, .alyn.post.
<alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> I would find it easier to work on and extend if it were on
> lojban.org.  I request you place it there.

Ok, I created a separate "cheat sheets" page and also put a link from
the "books" section:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=jbo_cheat_sheet

Hope that others will share theirs.

Remo

Lindar

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Oct 9, 2010, 5:05:25 PM10/9/10
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du means "x1 is exactly the same thing as x2"

Not like "this apple is exactly the same as that apple", but "Jeff's
apple is the same as this apple." x1 and x2 of {du} are one and the
same object/person/thing/idea. I believe it's derived from dunli,
which is where 1 and 2 are similar objects and x3 is the similar
trait. If there was anything in Lojban that was like "is", {du} would
probably be it (in the sense of "Mr. Jingle is Jeff's bird." OSLT).

So... not pro-bridi, it's an actual selbri.

Ian Johnson

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Oct 9, 2010, 5:40:47 PM10/9/10
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...Agh. "A word is a selbri." I know there aren't many ways of saying that better, but I still cringe a bit at that.

Also, why IS {du} in GOhA? Why is it even a cmavo?

Also, a few more typos:
{bu'a} and friends are numbered wrong.
{ma} has "simti" instead of "sumti"

Nice, by the way.

mu'o mi'e latros.

Jonathan Jones

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Oct 9, 2010, 6:10:37 PM10/9/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
...Agh. "A word is a selbri." I know there aren't many ways of saying that better, but I still cringe a bit at that.

Also, why IS {du} in GOhA? Why is it even a cmavo?

It's a cmavo because of it's shape. It's a CV word. All CV words are cmavo.
 
Also, a few more typos:
{bu'a} and friends are numbered wrong.
{ma} has "simti" instead of "sumti"

Nice, by the way.

mu'o mi'e latros.

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Lindar <lindar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
du means "x1 is exactly the same thing as x2"

Not like "this apple is exactly the same as that apple", but "Jeff's
apple is the same as this apple." x1 and x2 of {du} are one and the
same object/person/thing/idea. I believe it's derived from dunli,
which is where 1 and 2 are similar objects and x3 is the similar
trait. If there was anything in Lojban that was like "is", {du} would
probably be it (in the sense of "Mr. Jingle is Jeff's bird." OSLT).

So... not pro-bridi, it's an actual selbri.

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John E Clifford

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Oct 9, 2010, 7:32:45 PM10/9/10
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Any time you get tired of Lojlish for talking about Lojban, English is still available and the technical jargons of linguistics, logic and programming are relatively straightforward -- and adaptable.


From: Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 5:10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo

Jonathan Jones

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Oct 9, 2010, 7:39:34 PM10/9/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:32 PM, John E Clifford <kali9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any time you get tired of Lojlish for talking about Lojban, English is still available and the technical jargons of linguistics, logic and programming are relatively straightforward -- and adaptable.

Who are you talking to?
 

Remo Dentato

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Oct 10, 2010, 3:40:08 AM10/10/10
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On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, why IS {du} in GOhA? Why is it even a cmavo?

I asked that myself, it is clearly not a pro-bridi since it as a
definite and invariable meaning.
Initially I hadn't it in the table at all, then I had it in a
different color and then I colored it as the other GOhA.
After all the table it's just a mnemonic tool. If it helps to remember
that {du} has the form of a cmavo but it's actually something else, it
will serve its purpose

> Also, a few more typos:
> {bu'a} and friends are numbered wrong.
> {ma} has "simti" instead of "sumti"

Thanks. Going to fix them

John E Clifford

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Oct 10, 2010, 10:15:40 AM10/10/10
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People who display some problems dealing with the technical terminology, unique to Lojban, for describing Lojban.  It is hard enough to learn a new language, without having to learn a new way of talking about language, a way which will make sense only after you learn the language (if then).  This manner of talking grew up, sometimes consciously, in response to JCB's habitual misuse of English to describe Loglan ("metaphor" for tanru is the most infamous example).  Somehow, the idea of using English correctly never seems to have gained any ground, but it is still available when clarification is needed.


From: Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 6:39:34 PM

Pierre Abbat

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Oct 10, 2010, 11:55:32 AM10/10/10
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On Sunday 10 October 2010 10:15:40 John E Clifford wrote:
> People who display some problems dealing with the technical terminology,
> unique to Lojban, for describing Lojban. It is hard enough to learn a new
> language, without having to learn a new way of talking about language, a
> way which will make sense only after you learn the language (if then).
> This manner of talking grew up, sometimes consciously, in response to JCB's
> habitual misuse of English to describe Loglan ("metaphor" for tanru is the
> most infamous example). Somehow, the idea of using English correctly never
> seems to have gained any ground, but it is still available when
> clarification is needed.

Okay, can we list the proper English terms for talking about Lojban?

The "hyphen letter" is an interfix, whether used in a type-3 fu'ivla or a
lujvo.

A "modal" is a preposition. I call BAI proper prepositions, as distinct from
tense markers which can also be prepositions. "do'e", however, is a proper
preposition but not a "modal", as it is not derived from a brivla (though you
could say it means "fi'o co'e").

"ka'e" and "ca'a" are modals (as the term is used in other languages).

I don't think it's possible to completely avoid using Lojban terminology when
describing Lojban grammar, just as one can't describe Hebrew grammar without
using words like "niph`al" (or "N-stem", but the "N" is still a Hebrew
prefix). But we can use standard linguistic terminology for a lot of it.

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

John E Clifford

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:16:47 PM10/10/10
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Well, yes, there is the problem of form and function (and derivation) not always
flowing together well, so a clear demarcation between those various factors (and
there are probably others) would be useful -- and readily available. Of course,
you lose some in group elitism in the process, but clarity and ease of learning
might make it worthwhile.


----- Original Message ----
From: Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 10:55:32 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo

--

Ian Johnson

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Oct 10, 2010, 1:08:08 PM10/10/10
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I know that, I meant why is the word that means what {du} means in GOhA and a cmavo? That is, why isn't it a gismu?

mu'o mi'e latros.

John E Clifford

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Oct 10, 2010, 1:51:18 PM10/10/10
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Why is the word for the concept of identity not in the class of basic words (those of form CVCCV or CCVC)?  Well it usta was; 'dunli' is the relict of that ancient time.  But then the powers that were notice that people generally used 'same' and even 'identical' to mean something relative to some relevant property;.  At the same time, during one of the occasional thinking sprees about MEX, some one noted they needed an word for '=' that fit in with that program.  Soooo, eventually the two concepts split, the practical, relative one going to a gismu, the stricter, more mathematical, to something tha looked OK in formulae.  More or less.


From: Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 12:08:08 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Learning cmavo

Michael Turniansky

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Oct 11, 2010, 2:03:28 PM10/11/10
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But that goes all the way back to the Loglan "bi", doesn't it?
(which only meant "=", IIRC)

--gejyspa

John E Clifford

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Oct 11, 2010, 3:42:28 PM10/11/10
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Yes, the story comes from the late 60s or early 70s. since part of it was
already solid in the first big printing of Loglan (basically the most finished
part of MEX)
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