Re: loi jei loi nu klama cu muvdu

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Jorge J. Llambías

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Jun 12, 1998, 11:54:51 PM6/12/98
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la kolin cusku di'e
>I'm not going to try this in Lojban.
>I don't agree with your analysis, but I do agree that there is something
>there that needs some thought. Here is a different analysis.

I agree with much of your analysis, and I definitely like the idea of
putting some thought into how FAhA and tags in general work.

>Note 1: the case of ne'a and re'o is far from clear. In particular, I do
>not know what the difference is.

I believe it's the same difference that exists between jibni and lamji,
namely that re'o/lamji require the two things related to be in contact
and ne'a/jibni don't.

>I now suggest that when mo'i is used with any of these, it expresses a
>ve muvdu unless the FAhA is -extended AND -directional, in which case it
>expresses a se muvdu. [Here is where I disagree with Jorge: I claim that
>mo'iri'u expresses a (translatable) direction in space, not a direction
>towards some point to the right of me.]

Let me give a fuller account. My main objective is to have as much
a systematic way of understanding tags as possible.
First let's start with bare FAhA. They work very much like PU:

le gerku cu bajra ba le nundarxi
The dog runs after the beating.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu balvi le nundarxi
The dog's running happens after the beating.

le gerku cu bajra ne'i le zdani
The dog runs inside the house.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu nenri le zdani
The dog's running happens inside the house.

le gerku cu bajra zu'a le tricu
The dog runs left of the tree.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu zunle le tricu
The dog's running happens to the left of the tree.

le gerku cu bajra te'e le rirxe
The dog runs along the riverside.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu jimte le rirxe
The dog's running happens bordering the river.

For most FAhA there is a matching gismu:

ca'u crane
ti'a trixe
zu'a zunle
ri'u pritu
ga'u gapre
ni'a cnita
ne'i nenri
ru'u sruri
pa'o pagre
ne'a jibni
te'e jimte
re'o lamji
zo'a penmi
bu'u zvati
be'a berti
ne'u snanu
du'a stuna
vu'a stici

And also we have:

fa'a selfa'a
to'o selterfa'a

le gerku cu bajra fa'a le tricu
The dog runs towards the tree.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selfa'a le tricu
The dog's running happens in the direction of the tree.

le gerku cu bajra to'o le tricu
The dog runs away from the tree.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selterfa'a le tricu
The dog's running happens in the direction away
from the tree.

I'm not sure about {zo'i} and {ze'o}. From the note in page 253 of the
refgram I suppose that {zo'i ko'a} means the same as {fa'a mi to'o ko'a},
and {ze'o ko'a} means the same as {to'o mi to'o ko'a}, but I'm not sure.

The same sort of thing can be done with other tags, such as BAI tags:

le gerku cu bajra mu'i le nunterpa
The dog runs because of fear.
le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selmu'i le nunterpa
The dog's running happens motivated by fear.

Now, what happens with {mo'i} tags? I would like to find a
similar pattern. For example:

le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu
?The dog barks while moving left of the tree.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le zunle be le tricu
Or is it:
?The dog barks while moving all the way to the left of the
tree.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fe_ le zunle be le tricu

I think the first makes more sense, and the second can
easily be obtained with {mo'izu'afa'a}, moving-left-towards.

le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le selfa'a
be le zunle be le tricu
The dog's barking happens in movement along a path
that is oriented towards the left of the tree.

The meaning of tags directly on the selbri can be obtained from
the simple rule: {<tag> broda} = {broda <tag> zo'e}, i.e. with the
obvious-from-context reference. Then we have:

le gerku cu mo'ica'ufa'a bajra
The dog barks moving towards the front of the obvious
thing (probably itself), i.e. moving forward.

This of course doesn't match the refgram's gloss, which would give
"moving forward" for {mo'ica'u}, without {fa'a}.

As a last note, I'd like to point out that the only tags that don't always
follow the rule {<tag> broda} = {broda <tag> zo'e} are the members
ofZAhO, although some speakers do follow the rule even then. For
example, some will interpret {co'a ko'a} as "starting at ko'a" and
others will interpret it as "happening at the start of ko'a". The first is
the more systematic interpretation, but unfortunately the second is
the more official one.

co'o mi'e xorxes


Jorge J. Llambías

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Jun 13, 1998, 12:29:17 PM6/13/98
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Lojbab:


>> le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu
>

>My intention, if not contradicted by the Book, was
>
> The dog barks, while moving to the left from (at/near/the
> direction of) the tree.
> le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu klama le zunle
> [fe] le zunle [be le tricu]
> [fi] le tricu
>
>with the following useful application
>
> le gerku cu cmoni mo'iru'u le tricu
> The dog barks while running around the tree
> le gerku cu cmoni mo'ifa'a le tricu
> The dog barks while running toward the tree.
>
>etc. The tagged sumti in effect becomes a secondary space-time reference
>(secondary, because the primary space-time reference will determine what
>direction "to the left from the tree"is.

I agree with your interpretations of both {mo'iru'u} and {mo'ifa'a},
but I don't understand why you call them applications of the rule
you give for {mo'izu'a}, they don't follow that rule, they follow the
rule I was giving (i.e. that mo'i tags the ve muvdu, not the se muvdu):

le gerku cu cmoni mo'iru'u le tricu
The dog barks while moving around the tree.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le sruri be le tricu
The dog's barking happens moving along a path that
surrounds the tree.

le gerku cu cmoni mo'ifa'a le tricu
The dog barks while moving toward the tree.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le selfa'a be le tricu
The dog's barking happens moving along a path that
is directed towards the tree.

Using for {mo'iru'u} the rule you give for {mo'izu'a} we'd get instead:

le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu

[fe] le sruri [be le tricu]
[fi] le tricu
The dog's barking happens moving to the surrounding
of the tree from the tree.

I think we all agree that that one is wrong. The interpretation that you
want for {mo'izu'a} is obtained with my interpretation in this way:

le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'afa'a je mo'ito'o le tricu
The dog barks moving towards the left of, and away
from, the tree.

Here is another interesting pair:

le gerku cu cmoni mo'ine'i le zdani
The dog barks moving inside the house.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le nenri be le zdani
The dog's barking happens moving along a path that is
inside the house.

le gerku cu cmoni mo'ine'ifa'a le zdani
The dog barks moving into the house.


le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le selfa'a be le

nenri be le zdani
The dog's barking happens moving along a path that is
in the direction of the inside of the house.

Again, this does not match exactly the glosses in the refgram, which
give "moving into" for {mo'ine'i} and do not allow a possibility for
"moving inside".

In summary, we all seem to agree about the use of {mo'iru'u}, i.e.
moving along a path that surrounds the reference. We also agree
about {mo'ifa'a}, i.e. moving along a path that is directed towards
the reference.

But what happens with the FAhA that Colin classifies as -extended?
The gloss in the refgram suggests that they incorporate a {fa'a} when
used with {mo'i}. So {mo'ine'i} is glossed as "moving into" which
is what I would use for {mo'ine'ifa'a}, and {mo'izu'a} is glossed as
"moving leftward" which is what I would use for {mo'izu'afa'a}.

Logical Language Group

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Jun 13, 1998, 2:46:48 PM6/13/98
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>I agree with your interpretations of both {mo'iru'u} and {mo'ifa'a},
>but I don't understand why you call them applications of the rule
>you give for {mo'izu'a}, they don't follow that rule, they follow the
>rule I was giving (i.e. that mo'i tags the ve muvdu, not the se muvdu):

Since I am using klama rathe than muvdu, I can see why we are not
communicating. isn't muvdu agentive?

>Using for {mo'iru'u} the rule you give for {mo'izu'a} we'd get instead:
>
> le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu
> [fe] le sruri [be le tricu]
> [fi] le tricu
> The dog's barking happens moving to the surrounding
> of the tree from the tree.


OK, now I see what you are saying. The mo'iplace indictaes the route of
travel
I think I meant "with respect t" the tree, and not "from the tree" - maybe
ma'i le tricu rather than fi le tricu wouldwork in the above. The
dog'sbarking moves fo (via) the surounding ma'i (in reference frame) the tree.

>But what happens with the FAhA that Colin classifies as -extended?
>The gloss in the refgram suggests that they incorporate a {fa'a} when
>used with {mo'i}. So {mo'ine'i} is glossed as "moving into" which

>--More--


>is what I would use for {mo'ine'ifa'a}, and {mo'izu'a} is glossed as

I hadnt read Colin'sargument since it was responding to your in-Lojban
dsicussion and hence had no context. I'llhave to goback and figure it out


lojbab


Jorge J. Llambías

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Jun 13, 1998, 5:05:20 PM6/13/98
to Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN

Lojbab:


> Since I am using klama rathe than muvdu, I can see why we are not
>communicating. isn't muvdu agentive?

x1 (object) moves to destination/receiver x2 [away] from origin x3 over
path/route x4

>OK, now I see what you are saying. The mo'iplace indictaes the route of
>travel
>I think I meant "with respect t" the tree, and not "from the tree" - maybe
>ma'i le tricu rather than fi le tricu wouldwork in the above. The
>dog'sbarking moves fo (via) the surounding ma'i (in reference frame) the
tree.

But we do not disagree about {mo'iru'u}! We all agree that {le sruri be le
tricu}
is the path of the movement. The question was whether in the case of
{mo'izu'a} we had {le zunle} as the path or as the destination.

>I hadnt read Colin'sargument since it was responding to your in-Lojban
>dsicussion and hence had no context. I'llhave to goback and figure it out

au do co'a tcidu le selmri be bau la lojban

Logical Language Group

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Jun 13, 1998, 1:14:26 AM6/13/98
to Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN

>Now, what happens with {mo'i} tags? I would like to find a
>similar pattern. For example:
>

> le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu

> ?The dog barks while moving left of the tree.
> le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le zunle be le tricu
>Or is it:
> ?The dog barks while moving all the way to the left of the
> tree.

> le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fe_ le zunle be le tricu

My intention, if not contradicted by the Book, was


The dog barks, while moving to the left from (at/near/the
direction of) the tree.
le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu klama le zunle

[fe] le zunle [be le tricu]
[fi] le tricu

with the following useful application


le gerku cu cmoni mo'iru'u le tricu
The dog barks while running around the tree
le gerku cu cmoni mo'ifa'a le tricu
The dog barks while running toward the tree.

etc. The tagged sumti in effect becomes a secondary space-time reference
(secondary, because the primary space-time reference will determine what
direction "to the left from the tree"is.

lojbab
net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
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Colin Fine

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Jun 10, 1998, 4:03:20 PM6/10/98
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vecu'u le notci po'u <897152599...@listserv.cuny.edu> la "=?iso-
8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jo...@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR> cu cusku di'e


>la kolin cusku di'e

>>.i mi ze'a pensi le selsku be la xorxes iacu'i be'o pesera'a zo mo'i .i
>>ua jimpe .i tugni oi zo'o
>
>i oi zo'o le nu tugni mi cu xrani do ma

.i na'i .i mi milfengu na'e do loinu ge mi srera gi do drani

.i li'o
>
>i ie i a'u lu mo'ire'o da li'u se smuni le du'u muvdu ba'e fo le lamji
>be da iboku'i lu mo'ica'u da li'u se smuni le du'u muvdu ba'e fe
>le crane be da
>
>i zo ca'u e zo ti'a e zo zu'a e zo ri'u e zo ga'u e zo ni'a e zo ne'i
>e zo fa'a e zo to'o e zo zo'i e zo ze'o e zo bu'u e zo be'a e zo ne'u
>e zo du'a e zo vu'a cu kansa be zo mo'i tcita lo srana be le se muvdu
>
>i ku'i zo ru'u e zo pa'o e zo te'e e zo re'o e zo zo'a cu go'i lo srana
>be le ve muvdu


>
I'm not going to try this in Lojban.
I don't agree with your analysis, but I do agree that there is something
there that needs some thought. Here is a different analysis.

I will classify all the FAhA with respect to two features, which I call
'extended' and 'directional'. I shall present my classification first,
and then discuss it.

CMAVO extend direct notes
ca'u - +
ti'a - +
zu'a - +
ri'u - +
ga'u - +
ni'a - +
ne'i - -
ru'u + -
pa'o + -
ne'a + - 1
te'e + * 2
re'o + - 1
fa'a + *
to'o + *
zo'i + *
ze'o + *
zo'a + *
bu'u - -
be'a - +
ne'u - +
du'a - +
vu'a - +

The FAhA listed as +extended, I claim, only make sense when referring to
an object or event that extends in space (in some cases requiring an
asymmetric extent). The -extended ones can refer to an extended or point
event. [See also note 3]
Those listed as +directional express a definite direction: relative to
some reference frame, no doubt, but translatable. The -directional do
not express a direction; indeed the located items may lie in a variety
of directions from the reference. I have used * for one group of FAhA
which might be classified as +directional or -directional, but certainly
pattern together: as it happens this uncertainty does not affect my main
argument.

Note 1: the case of ne'a and re'o is far from clear. In particular, I do

not know what the difference is. I have classified them as +extended on
the basis of the glosses in TCLL (as will become apparent later). I
would actually like to make re'o +extended and ne'a -extended, thus
creating a clear difference between them.
Note 2: It is not clear what te'e means: accordingly it is not clear
whether it should be regarded as -directional, or *directional (ie as
directional as zo'a)
Note 3: The +extended +directional FAhA could conceivably be used for
non-extended items with an intrinsic direction (i.e. vectors), such as
the wind at a particular point. This possibility does not affect my main
argument, below, and in any case there remain some +extended -
directional items such as ru'u.

I now suggest that when mo'i is used with any of these, it expresses a
ve muvdu unless the FAhA is -extended AND -directional, in which case it
expresses a se muvdu. [Here is where I disagree with Jorge: I claim that
mo'iri'u expresses a (translatable) direction in space, not a direction
towards some point to the right of me.]

I suggest that this interpretation matches the glosses in TCLL. [At
first sight it does not fit for mo'ifa'a and mo'ito'o, but I think this
must be just an unclarity in the glosses, because if you read them as
telic, the end-point is the manri, not some point which is located by
the FAhA.]
I am thus arguing that the division that Jorge pointed out is can be
described in a system which is independently motivated. (For example, my
analysis predicts that "le kubli cu ri'u xunre" is sensible, but "le
kubli cu zo'i xunre" is of dubious meaning.

In principle there is no reason why we need to have the division: we
could simply say that mo'i always expresses the ve muvdu, and so
meaningful occurrences of mo'ibu'u would be rare (but perhaps at the end
of a meeting or party 'lei kurji cu mo'ibu'u nicgau').
If we were at a different stage, I think I would suggest we need two
MOhI's: one meaning movement towards a point referred to by the FAhA,
and the other movement in a direction or range referred to by the FAhA.
--
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| Colin Fine 66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK |
| Tel: 01274 592696/0976 635354 e-mail: co...@kindness.demon.co.uk |
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Jorge J. Llambías

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Jun 6, 1998, 12:54:15 PM6/6/98
to Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN

la kolin cusku di'e
>.i mi ze'a pensi le selsku be la xorxes iacu'i be'o pesera'a zo mo'i .i
>ua jimpe .i tugni oi zo'o

i oi zo'o le nu tugni mi cu xrani do ma

>.i ro klama cu muvdu .iku'i so'u nu klama cu muvdu

i le du'u xukau muvdu cu se manri i ro nu klama cu muvdu ma'i da
i ku'i mi do tugni le du'u so'u nu klama cu muvdu ma'i zu'i

>.iseki'ubo so'aroi nalmapti loinu zo mo'i tcita lo sumti be zo klama
>keiku nemu'u lu mi klama mo'ire'o le rirxe li'u .iki'u so'aroi mapti
>loinu zo mo'i tcita lo sumti poi galfi lo sumti keiku nemu'u lu mi ne
>mo'ire'o le rirxe cu klama li'u

i ie i a'u lu mo'ire'o da li'u se smuni le du'u muvdu ba'e fo le lamji
be da iboku'i lu mo'ica'u da li'u se smuni le du'u muvdu ba'e fe
le crane be da

i zo ca'u e zo ti'a e zo zu'a e zo ri'u e zo ga'u e zo ni'a e zo ne'i
e zo fa'a e zo to'o e zo zo'i e zo ze'o e zo bu'u e zo be'a e zo ne'u
e zo du'a e zo vu'a cu kansa be zo mo'i tcita lo srana be le se muvdu

i ku'i zo ru'u e zo pa'o e zo te'e e zo re'o e zo zo'a cu go'i lo srana
be le ve muvdu

i xu drani

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