A wiki to work on TERMINOLOGY problems

[Escape Landsome]

Coi rodo,

I think that problem of finding lojban word equivalent (or
translation) is not quite as difficult in the "common" words case that
it is with terminologies and jargons.

Especially in the case of philosophy (but possibly also chemistry,
medecine, etc) it seems very difficult

If anybody is interest, I started a wiki to discuss all of these.
Here ==> http://terminologies.wiki-site.com/index.php/Main_Page

Thanks to all !

[.arpis.]

I like the idea (of a single place for jargon translations and discussions) a lot, but I disagree strongly with something you wrote on the front page:

For instance, one who would translate sentient being in lojban should be aware the translation keeps related to all the meanings sentire in latin and be in english can lead to, especially from a philosophy viewpoint.

One of the problems with understanding jargon for laypeople is that it's laden with too much subtle (and often useless) meaning that is only apparent once you read the entire text. In translating, we should translate the primary meaning; not the history.

I would translate "sentient being" as {lo kakne lo nu te sibdo}, and possibly luvjoize it as {lo tersi'oka'e} (someone with better lujvo skills than I can criticize) because the key point of the term is sentience, which is the capability to think, and everything else are red herrings.

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--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[gleki]

Why not create a bunch of pages in lojban.org wiki?

Why splitting into other wikis?

If we keep everything in one place we can easily use interlinks which is a bit inconvenient when using separate websites.

[Escape Landsome]

This is not as simple as that, .arpis

The reason is that in philosophy, there is the notion (which is
signified) and the word (which signifies)

To convey an idea (a notion), one forges a word

But somebody else can re-use this word to make it say something
slightly different, --- and this is regarded as a fair move

Hence, it is as if we had goods and money, goods can be exchanged with
money, money can be changed to goods, and the fact there are two
levels create a useful dynamics that permits people to scrutinize
questions in a very efficient way (albeit for non-philosophers, this
is precisely the assholish way)

I wonder if this can be kept in lojban

---

However, what you say makes sense, for instance Roman philosophers
translated all greek terms into latin, --- and by doing this they
CHANGED the philosophic viewpoint on life the Greeks had into a NEW,
CREATED ON THE SPOT Roman viewpoint on life.

Maybe such things cannot be avoided at all.

Prepare to create a lojbanic philosophy, then !

---

gleki, you must be right. Where should we post ?

[Jonathan Jones]

Oh, I don't know.... Maybe, um, where we're already doing that?

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Terminology

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[.arpis.]

Responses inline.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:19 AM, Escape Landsome <esca...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not as simple as that, .arpis

The reason is that in philosophy, there is the notion (which is
signified) and the word (which signifies)

To convey an idea (a notion), one forges a word

But somebody else can re-use this word to make it say something
slightly different, --- and this is regarded as a fair move

This is antithetical to something I believe to be fundamental to lojban, namely a strong and active attempt to avoid polysemy.

Hence, it is as if we had goods and money, goods can be exchanged with
money, money can be changed to goods, and the fact there are two
levels create a useful dynamics that permits people to scrutinize
questions in a very efficient way (albeit for non-philosophers, this
is precisely the assholish way)

I wonder if this can be kept in lojban

---

However, what you say makes sense, for instance Roman philosophers
translated all greek terms into latin, --- and by doing this they
CHANGED the philosophic viewpoint on life the Greeks had into a NEW,
CREATED ON THE SPOT Roman viewpoint on life.

Maybe such things cannot be avoided at all.

Prepare to create a lojbanic philosophy, then !

Gladly.

---

gleki, you must be right.   Where should we post ?

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[Escape Landsome]

>> But somebody else can re-use this word to make it say something
>> slightly different, --- and this is regarded as a fair move
>
>
> This is antithetical to something I believe to be fundamental to lojban,
> namely a strong and active attempt to avoid polysemy.

Maybe tiny divergence of meaning and/or interpretation can be assumed.

Yeah, you may argue that |R is archimedian, so that plenty tiny
ambiguities eventually lead to hermeneutic disaster.

I say this should be debated.

[tijlan]

On 26 June 2012 13:25, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would translate "sentient being" as {lo kakne lo nu te sibdo}, and
> possibly luvjoize it as {lo tersi'oka'e} (someone with better lujvo skills
> than I can criticize) because the key point of the term is sentience, which
> is the capability to think, and everything else are red herrings.

"Sentience" isn't limited to the capability to think. It includes
mechanisms for primitive senses such as pleasure and pain. As far as I
can tell, "sentient beings" refers to whatever individuals that can
receive physical stimuli as sensory information, which includes
non-humans (hence its significance in animal rights movements). That
sounds like simply {lo ganse}.

OED:
"sentient" -- able to see or feel things through the senses

Other references:
http://ciwf.org.uk/animal_sentience/policy_and_culture/suggested_reading/default.aspx
http://www.d.umn.edu/~dcole/sense5.html
http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/Xenopsychology.htm

* * *

So that was my example of commenting on a technical term for a Lojban
equivalent. Will such be best pursued on Escape's wiki, or on
Lojban.org, or on mailing lists (including jbovlaste's)?


mu'o

[.arpis.]

pe'i mailing lists for discussion, one of the wikis for archival purposes; I'd also recommend that someone edit the wiki page and then query the mailing list for comments as a typical workflow.

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[Escape Landsome]

I reported your comments on
http://terminologies.wiki-site.com/index.php/Philosophy

There are some lexicon that awaits good translations.

[.alyn.post.]

Wouldn't that page rather be named pijyske?

-Alan

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.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

[Escape Landsome]

> Wouldn't that page rather be named pijyske?

Since it is a wiki, you can report your suggestion on the wiki page itself !

-- thanks !