[lojban] zil

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Theodore Reed

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Oct 16, 2002, 11:36:38 PM10/16/02
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How exactly does the rafsi zil work?


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Oct 17, 2002, 4:00:16 PM10/17/02
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<rlpowell> coi rodo
<xod> coi
<rlpowell> do mo
<xod> co'a jimpe fi zo zi'o
<xod> ca'o pensi ri
<rlpowell> je'e
<xod> vimcu lo tergi'u fi'o selsinxa na'ebo le du'u T du noda
<rlpowell> Well, yeah. noda klama is different that klama with no x1
place at all.
<xod> satci drani .i ku'i mu'i ma lo racli cu pilno zo zi'o
<rlpowell> BTW, for poetry at the very least.
<rlpowell> pluta zi'o == road to nowhere.
<xod> lu pluta zi'o li'u frica lu pluta noda li'u ma
<xod> "nowhere" = noda
<rlpowell> Hmmm.
<rlpowell> That's a good point. 8)
<xod> > zilrelpikta
<xod> > x1 is a ticket giving entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3
<xod> >
<xod> > To include tickets that are not personalized.
<rlpowell> I would say it differs in that pluta zi'o never *had* an
intended destination.
<rlpowell> It's just sort of *there*.
<rlpowell> Oh. That's a pretty good use, yeah.
<xod> now that's a proper use of zi'o. It's actually sort of filled with
roda
<xod> the difference only arises in the special cases of lo tergi'u where
"is nothing" is different from "doesn't exist"
<xod> I can imagine a ticket without a name stamped on it, but I can't
imagine a road without a destination, other than a road to noda
<xod> a loop goes noda; a parking lot is a pluta zi'o
<rlpowell> Aaaah.
<rlpowell> That's interesting.
<xod> a very lojbanic concept
<xod> built-in koans
<xod> xance darxi zi'o
<rlpowell> Heh heh heh.
<xod> go'i noda is not a koan, it's waving your hand in the air


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And Rosta

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Oct 17, 2002, 8:43:43 AM10/17/02
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Theodore Reed (rizen/bancus) :

> How exactly does the rafsi zil work?

zilpavbroda = zi'o zei pa zei broda :: broda fa zi'o
zilcibybroda = zi'o zei ci zei broda :: broda fe zi'o
zilmumbroda = zi'o zei mu zei broda :: broda fu zi'o

The meaning/effect of zi'o itself turns out to be a tad controversial.
According to me, it serves to redefine the selbri so that it needn't
express a relation in which the zihoed place plays a part.

An example:

pikta
x1 is a ticket entitling x2 to entitlement/privilege x3 under conditions x4

zilpikta (< zilpavypikta)
x1 has right/entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3

--And.

John Cowan

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Oct 17, 2002, 3:29:06 PM10/17/02
to Jorge Llambias, loj...@yahoogroups.com
Jorge Llambias scripsit:

> This serves as a superficial analogy, but it's not quite the same thing.
> zi'o expands the meaning of a selbri, a projection doesn't. A projection
> just fixes the value of one of the arguments, or restricts in some way
> the relationship between the arguments. zi'o goes the other way.

By my understanding, what you are calling a projection is really a selection
followed by a projection. Projection as such just shrinks the number of
domains in the relation. The reason why new tuples can then appear in the
Lojban context is because Lojban is an open world, where new relationships
can appear from thin air, whereas implementations of relational algebra
are closed worlds, where the tuples that initially exist are all the ones
that will ever exist unless they are explicitly added.

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And Rosta

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Oct 18, 2002, 9:41:38 AM10/18/02
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pier:
> On Thursday 17 October 2002 08:43, And Rosta wrote:
> li'o

> > An example:
> >
> > pikta
> > x1 is a ticket entitling x2 to entitlement/privilege x3 under conditions x4
> >
> > zilpikta (< zilpavypikta)
> > x1 has right/entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3
>
> I would normally use {zilbroda} for {broda fexiny zi'o} with n>1, what n is
> depending on the meaning of broda. So zilselcmi = zilrelselcmi = set (a thing
> which has members, except it might not because it could be the empty set).

pe'i, deviation from strict jvajvo principles for the sake of brevity
should not itself be constrained by further principles, except the
general principle that the shrunk lujvo does not block any other
meaning with a better claim to be the meaning of the lujvo. In the
current instance, then, {zilpikta} could correspond to zilpavypikta,
zilrelpikta, zilcibypikta, or zilvonpikta. Whichever of these four
is the Coolest (i.e. the most zabna) has the right to be equivalent
to {zilpikta}.

--And.


Pierre Abbat

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Oct 17, 2002, 11:19:46 PM10/17/02
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On Thursday 17 October 2002 08:43, And Rosta wrote:
li'o
> An example:
>
> pikta
> x1 is a ticket entitling x2 to entitlement/privilege x3 under conditions x4
>
> zilpikta (< zilpavypikta)
> x1 has right/entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3

I would normally use {zilbroda} for {broda fexiny zi'o} with n>1, what n is

depending on the meaning of broda. So zilselcmi = zilrelselcmi = set (a thing
which has members, except it might not because it could be the empty set).

phma

Jorge Llambias

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Oct 17, 2002, 11:57:45 AM10/17/02
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la djan cusku di'e

>To be precise, zi'o provides the operation of the
>relational algebra called "projection", whereby an n-place relation
>becomes an (n-1)-place relation.

This serves as a superficial analogy, but it's not quite the same thing.
zi'o expands the meaning of a selbri, a projection doesn't. A projection
just fixes the value of one of the arguments, or restricts in some way
the relationship between the arguments. zi'o goes the other way.

It would be more appropriate to say that the zi'o-less selbri is a
projection of the zi'o-selbri. Only a subset of the arguments that
satisfy the zi'o-selbri will satisfy the zi'o-less one.

> > An example:
> >
> > pikta
> > x1 is a ticket entitling x2 to entitlement/privilege x3 under conditions
>x4
> >
> > zilpikta (< zilpavypikta)
> > x1 has right/entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3
>

>An excellent example!

Yes, very good. {pikta} is a projection of {zilpikta}, from all
relationships
of entitlement to only those relationships involving tickets.

Also:

zilrelpikta


x1 is a ticket giving entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3

To include tickets that are not personalized.

and:

zilreljvecibypikta
x1 is a ticket under conditions x2

To include tickets that don't necessarily entitle privileges.

(It is still a mystery to me why some gismu have an "under conditions"
place and others don't.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Oct 17, 2002, 1:21:06 PM10/17/02
to loj...@yahoogroups.com

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In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:44:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
lojba...@lojban.org writes:

<<
> How exactly does the rafsi zil work?
> >>

"[U]se the rafsi for 'zi'o' as a prefix immediately followed by the number of
the palce to be deleted" 7.15 (163).


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:44:56 PM Central Daylight Time, lojba...@lojban.org writes:<BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">How exactly does the rafsi zil work?<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>&gt;&gt;<BR>
"[U]se the rafsi for 'zi'o' as a prefix immediately followed by the number of the palce to be deleted" 7.15 (163).&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>

John Cowan

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Oct 17, 2002, 9:07:20 AM10/17/02
to aro...@uclan.ac.uk, lojban-list
And Rosta scripsit:

> The meaning/effect of zi'o itself turns out to be a tad controversial.

What is the controversy?

> According to me, it serves to redefine the selbri so that it needn't
> express a relation in which the zihoed place plays a part.

And according to me. To be precise, zi'o provides the operation of the


relational algebra called "projection", whereby an n-place relation
becomes an (n-1)-place relation.

> An example:


>
> pikta
> x1 is a ticket entitling x2 to entitlement/privilege x3 under conditions x4
>
> zilpikta (< zilpavypikta)
> x1 has right/entitlement/privilege x2 under conditions x3

An excellent example!

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Humpty Dump Dublin hath a horrible vorse
But for all his kinks English / And his irismanx brogues
Humpty Dump Dublin's grandada of all rogues.
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