Anti-CLL aka a proposal for a new policy for teaching lojban

[la gleki]

1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.

2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.

3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow synchronous updates to other languages.

If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me. Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.

Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed description for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?

Here is my proposal.

1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file without any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to complete.

2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

3. jbo-CLL.

When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues. 

Consequences.

1. translating the Waves to other languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.

2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.

Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.

Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.

If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all most important goals are complete.

That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.

P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, not even in English.

[Remo Dentato]

It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much money coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes" seems rather pointless to me.

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the language. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no value in rejecting it.

About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from it and, eventually, translate it in their own language.  I'll probably never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their language.

remod.

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[la gleki]

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:01:09 PM UTC+4, remod wrote:

It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much money coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes" seems rather pointless to me.

It seems pointless to me too. That's what im wondering about.

 

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the language. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no value in rejecting it.

As i said it must be exclusively in lojban. It will remove English bias from the language, btw. 

About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from it and, eventually, translate it in their own language.  I'll probably never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their language.

If you are translating it to lojban as well then you are doing something like Waves 2.0, just an alternative solution. This is in full concord with what im suggesting. It's stage 2, namely teaching courses, comics, easy reading etc.

Stage 3 is jbo-CLL.

[Jonathan Jones]

The CLL is not now and never was intended as a teaching tool. It is a description of the entire Lojban language as it is, and nothing more. There's a reason it has no vocabulary.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[MorphemeAddict]

If CLL were only and entirely in Lojban, almost nobody would (or even could) use it. 

stevo

[.arpis.]

I may be unusual in this respect, but I would not have learned lojban if the CLL did not exist, for two reasons: first, I actually used it as learning material, since grammar interests me more than vocabulary; second, part of the appeal of lojban is its thorough documentation (in the same sense as is use to talk about programming languages or libraries).

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[la gleki]

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:24:51 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:

I may be unusual in this respect, but I would not have learned lojban if the CLL did not exist, for two reasons: first, I actually used it as learning material, since grammar interests me more than vocabulary; second, part of the appeal of lojban is its thorough documentation (in the same sense as is use to talk about programming languages or libraries).

Level 2 (Waves 2.0) don't exist now. Therefore we don't have any other options now. Level 3 doesn't exist neither.

I propose something something that is better.

pe'i reading jbo-CLL is better than english-CLL.

[.arpis.]

It may be "better", but it requires much more of an upfront time commitment. I am not fluent in lojban; the moment a conversation on this list switches to lojban, it takes too much time for me to follow and too much effort for me to glean any understanding. I agree that, ideally, eventually, there should be a canonical reference document written in lojban, but the translations to natlangs are not optional; meanwhile, there needs to be a canonical reference document written in _some_ language, and English is the best choice for multiple reasons.

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

la gleki wrote:
> 1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan.

That is/was certainly NOT its purpose. It took more than 10 years worth
of sales merely to pay for the printing costs, if one ignores
inflationary costs of money.

At this point we are making money - maybe $2000 a year. But a good
chunk of that pays for various LogFests, and our bank account probably
isn't yet large enough to print a new hardcover if and when it becomes
appropriate.

> Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect.

As I understand it, by Robin's intent, it is an intermediate product
that represents the official language definition as it stands, without
byfy changes (of which only xorlo has been officially approved).

> What is the reason to raise money from something broken?

We have made no plans to offer 1.1 for sale.

> Present something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.

Not hardly.

> 2. The CLL is useless pretty much.

Maybe to you. To me and many others it is useful for its primary
purpose, which is as a reference book.

> It doesn't teach people language.

It wasn't meant to, though many have learned the language by reading it.
The textbook by Nick Nicolas and Robin Turner is probably better for
teaching purposes.

> 3. The CLL is written in English and is very long.

For a reference grammar describing an entire language, it is not long at
all.

> Translating to other languages is tiresome

Yes. So?

> and the current github format doesn't allow synchronous updates to
other languages.

We haven't managed to finalize it in its current form, so worrying about
translation is a bit premature. I would not expect any major effort to
translate 1.1.

> If you love english it's your choice.

If we don't speak any language other than English, then it is the only
plausible choice.

> All languages are equal to me.

Good for you. If someone writes something about Lojban is a language I
don't know well enough to understand what is written, then I won't be
reading it.

> Now why do we need the CLL?

It is the formal definition of the language. The standard for the
language baseline.

> To provide the most detailed description for
> experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?

Because it is the language that the author and I and pretty much
everyone else who has worked on it is capable of writing.

> Here is my proposal.
> 1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans.

In what language would it be readable to all humans?

We've has the gismu and cmavo word lists since 1988, and they have more
or less served this purpose all that time.

> 2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons).

I have no ideas what this is, and have never seen anything by klaku.

> The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can
> start speaking Lojban and reach fluency.

Perhaps some can.

> The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

No idea what that means. Short is the opposite of comprehensive.

> 3. jbo-CLL.
> When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to
> this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary
> description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and
> understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues.

There exists no simple lojban that describes complicated issues.

So far as I know, there is no one yet sufficiently skilled in Lojban to
write something like CLL in Lojban and have it be understandable to
others. xorxes and Robin probably are capable of translating the text
into Lojban, but not quickly, and most likely the result wouldn't be
understood by all that many.

> Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important

It is an important milestone for the language. Actually 2.0 is the more
important one, but it isn't written yet. One step at a time.

>(and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban)

It isn't "advertising" anything. It is defining the language, in the
only way we are capable of at this point.

> I don't understand where the money
> obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?).

Not nearly enough to do that. Ideally we can cover operating expenses
for the organization and slowly accumulate money so that we can offer
revised materials in print for those who still value a printed book.

> It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.

CLL isn't about making Lojban popular. Nor is it about advertising.
The intro book, which replaced the introductory brochure, is the closest
thing we have to "advertising".

> Money provide nothing.

It pays the bills.

> Human desire provide everything.

I wish it were that easy.

> If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency
> all most important goals are complete.

Which goals are more important, and who defines them as such?

I'd love to have 10,000 people fluent in Lojban, but at this point
having 50 seems a little difficult.

And then there are people like me, who in 25 years has never come close
to fluency. For me, it remains as much a struggle to read Lojban text
as it did around 20 years ago.

> That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular,

Until we complete the language definition, I am not making much effort
to make Lojban more popular.

> learnable and well-known around the world,

10,000 is hardly well known. Esperanto isn't considered well-known, and
it has more than a million speakers.

> P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site
> for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in
> Esperanto, not even in English.

With their numbers, and 125 years to produce stuff, why would you be
surprised?

If you had those 10,000 fluent Lojbanists, there would be a lot of stuff
written in Lojban too.

lojbab



--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[Robert Slaughter]

Like others, I find the CLL _immensely_ useful for learning lojban, as it is intended to answer "How do I ..." questions from English to lojban. By the nature of its specifics, it shouldn't be directly translated into other languages, as many of them do not have the same issues (Chinese, Arabic, etc.)

Given your proposal:

1. Small PDF dictionaries for lojban have existed for about 10 years now. There are probably at least one-half dozen, maybe even a full dozen. What is wrong with any of them?
2. Extending the Wave lessons is a good idea, as any support for "Lojban for Beginners" by Nick and Robin seems to have been abandoned (which is a shame, because I find it very well done overall).
3. A CLL in lojban itself is pretty useless, because at the moment we have maybe 50 fluent speakers as lojbab has pointed out.

The other issue I have with your email is that you propose that this work be undertaken but never specify by whom. Lojban is a lot like a wide open-source project (Gnome, Linux kernel, KDE) as opposed to a narrow-focus single application. Thus, if someone wants X done, said someone DOES X, and solicits others to aid them. Nothing you said in your original email or any replies gives any indication this is more than a theoretical you want "someone else" to do. So unless you plan on personally leading the work effort on your proposal (which likely means you get to do 90%+ of it singlehandedly - nothing about you personally, just the lack of helping hands on *any* lojban or LLG effort), there is not much more to say. Shit, or get off the pot.

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[la gleki]

Thanks for your reply, doi lojbab.

I won't reply to every your point.

Just note that I'm talking about something better than what is currently is.

By the waves i meant "Google Wave lessons continued".

Yes, almost nobody is fluent in Lojban.

And nobody will until we implement those three levels.

As for level 1 (dictionary) it's a very minor problem. Just as with level 2 it's a subject to translation to all languages. It's largely semantics level.

 

We've has the gismu and cmavo word lists since 1988, and they have more
or less served this purpose all that time.

> 2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons).

I have no ideas what this is, and have never seen anything by klaku.

> The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can
> start speaking Lojban and reach fluency.

Perhaps some can.

> The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

No idea what that means.  Short is the opposite of comprehensive.

> 3. jbo-CLL.
> When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to
> this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary
> description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and
> understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues.

There exists no simple lojban that describes complicated issues.

So far as I know, there is no one yet sufficiently skilled in Lojban to
write something like CLL in Lojban and have it be understandable to
others. xorxes and Robin probably are capable of translating the text
into Lojban, but not quickly, and most likely the result wouldn't be
understood by all that many.

I'm talking about the future.

I want people to talk in Lojban itself. Not just talking about Lojban.

> Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important

It is an important milestone for the language.  Actually 2.0 is the more
important one, but it isn't written yet. One step at a time.

>(and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban)

It isn't "advertising" anything.  It is defining the language, in the
only way we are capable of at this point.

Exactly. "At this point" , a point that can last forever until we get fluent speakers and denaskuloj.

> I don't understand where the money
> obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?).

Not nearly enough to do that.  Ideally we can cover operating expenses
for the organization and slowly accumulate money so that we can offer
revised materials in print for those who still value a printed book.

> It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.

CLL isn't about making Lojban popular.  Nor is it about advertising.
The intro book, which replaced the introductory brochure, is the closest
thing we have to "advertising".

> Money provide nothing.

It pays the bills.

Money is not necessary in a community  where people don'y ask money for something they love.

Love cannot be bought.

> Human desire provide everything.

I wish it were that easy.

> If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency
> all most important goals are complete.

Which goals are more important, and who defines them as such?

I'd love to have 10,000 people fluent in Lojban, but at this point
having 50 seems a little difficult.

This is why i started this topic.

[la gleki]

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:57:27 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:

If CLL were only and entirely in Lojban, almost nobody would (or even could) use it. 

A very important addition.

I don't mean that we need one and only one solution. No textbook can be perfect for everyone.

If one book cannot help you use alternative solutions.

[la gleki]

On Friday, December 28, 2012 7:56:57 AM UTC+4, Bob Slaughter wrote:

Like others, I find the CLL _immensely_ useful for learning lojban, as it is intended to answer "How do I ..." questions from English to lojban. By the nature of its specifics, it shouldn't be directly translated into other languages, as many of them do not have the same issues (Chinese, Arabic, etc.)

Given your proposal:

1. Small PDF dictionaries for lojban have existed for about 10 years now. There are probably at least one-half dozen, maybe even a full dozen. What is wrong with any of them?

Well, actually nothing wrong. May be some alternative dictionaries like replacing x1 - x(n) sumti places with dots ala Loglan or A,B,C... ala Ceqli.

 

2. Extending the Wave lessons is a good idea, as any support for "Lojban for Beginners" by Nick and Robin seems to have been abandoned (which is a shame, because I find it very well done overall).

Yes, L4B can also be upgraded. I hope I can import it into the new wiki some time in future.

 

3. A CLL in lojban itself is pretty useless, because at the moment we have maybe 50 fluent speakers as lojbab has pointed out.

Exactly. "At the moment", the moment that lasts for 25 years.

The other issue I have with your email is that you propose that this work be undertaken but never specify by whom. Lojban is a lot like a wide open-source project (Gnome, Linux kernel, KDE) as opposed to a narrow-focus single application. Thus, if someone wants X done, said someone DOES X, and solicits others to aid them. Nothing you said in your original email or any replies gives any indication this is more than a theoretical you want "someone else" to do. So unless you plan on personally leading the work effort on your proposal (which likely means you get to do 90%+ of it singlehandedly - nothing about you personally, just the lack of helping hands on *any* lojban or LLG effort), there is not much more to say. Shit, or get off the pot.

Unfortunately I almost agree with that. Although I'm sure some of lojbanists will do similar things soon.

I'm just announcing my plans. But others might agree with this plan, join the efforts, make necessary corrections to the plan etc.

[Robert LeChevalier]

la gleki wrote:
> Thanks for your reply, doi lojbab.
>
> I won't reply to every your point.
>
> Just note that I'm talking about something better than what is currently is.
> By the waves i meant "Google Wave lessons continued".

I have no idea what those are. I don't use online resources very much.
If it isn't linked on the Lojban home page, I'm not likely to pay much
attention, and even then, am unlikely to use it.

> Yes, almost nobody is fluent in Lojban.
> And nobody will until we implement those three levels.

Until we get a language baseline fully documented, a lot of people will
lack that kind of commitment.

It isn't learning materials; it is faith that the language is complete
and stable.

But even when that occurs, no matter what kind of learning materials
exist, Lojban fluency isn't likely to become common. Why not? Because
mastering a language to the level of fluency takes time and effort, and
this is at the hobby level for nearly everyone. And even for those with
serious interest, the lack of local people speaking the language will
keep most of them from learning to speak the language well (they might
write and read skillfully, but speaking and understanding spoken
language is a whole nother thing).

> > Here is my proposal.
> > 1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans.
>
> In what language would it be readable to all humans?
>
>
> As for level 1 (dictionary) it's a very minor problem. Just as with
> level 2 it's a subject to translation to all languages.

Which is a non-trivial effort. Even doing a good translation of the
gismu list to another language is non-trivial.

> It's largely semantics level.

I hate to tell you this, but semantics differences are the absolute
toughest thing to deal with in language and translation.

> > 3. jbo-CLL.
> > When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can
> move to
> > this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary
> > description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read
> and
> > understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes
> complicated issues.
>
> There exists no simple lojban that describes complicated issues.
>
> So far as I know, there is no one yet sufficiently skilled in Lojban to
> write something like CLL in Lojban and have it be understandable to
> others. xorxes and Robin probably are capable of translating the text
> into Lojban, but not quickly, and most likely the result wouldn't be
> understood by all that many.
>
>
> I'm talking about the future.

We're trying to manage the present. Without a lot of money, and without
many people willing to commit time to DO things for a long period of time.

I've hardly been active for the last half dozen years or so, and wasn't
doing enough for several years before that, so I am not one to complain.
But when we were working on CLL, it was week after week of 20+ hours a
week for several months. And early in the project, I was putting in
full-time work for weeks and months at a time.

There are useful things that can be done, by someone with the right
skills, in only a few hours (but I don't know what they are), but the
big challenges keeping is from moving forward are things that will take
at least a couple hundred hours total focused time for one person. And
we don't have people who can spend that kind of time, (or like me, they
tend to not have sufficient focus to make that time pay off).

If we can get the present set of tasks done, then we may have the
resources to think about the future. But we don't right now. So if you
want any of your personal Lojban dreams to be implemented, you will have
to step up and do it yourself.

> *I want people to talk in Lojban itself. Not just talking about Lojban.*

So do I. But other than at LogFests, I don't have much opportunity.
And nothing online is going to change that. (yes, I can talk to someone
in Lojban on the telephone, but why would I do so, other than for
practice? More importantly, as we discovered when we held weekly Lojban
sessions here at my house, it is damnably difficult to find something
that a group of people want to talk ABOUT in Lojban).

> >(and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban)
>
> It isn't "advertising" anything. It is defining the language, in the
> only way we are capable of at this point.
>
>
> Exactly. "At this point" , a point that can last forever until we get
> fluent speakers and denaskuloj.

If so, then that is its fate.

No one will become a fluent speaker unless they WANT to, and unless they
are willing to put in sustained time and effort to achieve that goal.
And if they are so-willing then the resources we've provided will likely
be plenty (after all: every fluent Lojbanist we have has done it with
what is already available, or even less).

Better resources will make it easier to get people to a level far less
than fluency, where they might be more motivated to put in the time and
effort, but my experience has been that it is a lack of utility, rather
than a lack of teaching resources that is holding people back.

But few people are going to work on creating those resources, when the
language is still subject to arbitrary change. So we need the baseline
first, and then the self-discipline thereafter to say NO to every
proposal to change or improve the language for years, until that fluent
speaker base has a chance to emerge.

Esperanto got to where it is at as a result of DECADES of commitment.
We are just celebrating our 25th anniversary. When Esperanto was 25, it
was embroiled in the major schism that resulted in Ido. (Lojban was 10
years old before we even had a book comparable to what Esperanto started
with, so in a sense, we are only 15 years along the Esperanto timeline,
in an era and environment where far fewer people are into learning new
languages).

But I don't think this state will last forever. Just until we get CLL
revised, and then maybe another year or two.

> > Money provide nothing.
>
> It pays the bills.
>
> Money is not necessary in a community where people don'y ask money for
> something they love.

I've never asked for money for my Lojban work. But I've had my wife
supporting me and our family for all these years. And the fact that SHE
works means that for all the love she might have for the language, she
doesn't have time to do anything with it (which is why she is even less
active than I am)

> Love cannot be bought.

Correct. But love isn't enough to get things done by itself. One has
to have time and energy and focus.

But time usually has to be bought, because once people get past college
or so (if not sooner), time is in extremely short supply and has to be
traded for the means of living. (Retirement again gives time, but by
then energy and focus have largely diminished.)

> > Human desire provide everything.
>
> I wish it were that easy.
>
> > If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach
> fluency
> > all most important goals are complete.
>
> Which goals are more important, and who defines them as such?
>
> I'd love to have 10,000 people fluent in Lojban, but at this point
> having 50 seems a little difficult.
>
>
> This is why i started this topic.

Talking about it won't change anything. You want something to change,
then ACT. By yourself, not waiting for others, and fully prepared that
your efforts might be a total waste of time until and unless you get the
job DONE.

That commitment and action is why JCB achieved the original version of
Loglan, and it is why I was able to bring Lojban into existence (with a
couple others helping me along at key points). Then a small number of
people (but more than one) who stuck with it for YEARS was fundamental
to getting CLL 1.0 into print. The next stage will similarly take a set
of people - a larger number this time, sticking with it for YEARS. And
it starts with getting CLL 1.1 done, and then CLL 2.0.

I think Lojban will get there. But I am not going to get excited about
any new projects until we show that we can get done with the ones
already started.

I won't stop others from trying other new projects, but unless they are
willing and able to do it themselves, I won't encourage them either.

lojbab

[Michael Turniansky]

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 8:23 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.

  mi  cmima lo'i prenu poi pu cilre fi la lojban cylyly .i mi noroi tcidu la'oi L4B  .ije li'a lo me la'oi  wave  me'u jai velcli pu na zasti .i ku'i je'u mi se verclibau la gliban

         --gejyspa

[Jacob Errington]

.i mi ji'a cilre fi lo jbobau fu tu'a cy ly ly

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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