Fullstop

[Annie]

It seems like there's a lot of periods, fullstops in Lojban. Why would you want to put them either at the beginning or in the middle of a word?

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[Ross Ogilvie]

A full stop in lojban represents a pause in speech. You need to pause in speech to show that the next word begins with a vowel, or that you have finished saying a name.

English uses a full stop to separate sentences. The way to separate sentences in lojban is to use the word "i". Because it's a word beginning with a vowel, it is normally written with a full stop before it. eg

ti mlatu .i ta gerku
This is a cat. That is a dog

But it is the word "i", not the full stop that is separating the sentences.

The word in lojban for the full stop is "denpabu", ie "the pause letter"

-- Ross

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[Jacob Errington]

Well, a minor detail: {me'o denpa bu} refers to the actual symbol, but in the common IRC parlance, there're a few ways to actually refer to the concept of the "pause" (which isn't actually necessarily a pause; the glottal stop is just a sound like any other, but it has the alternative of being substituted for by silence). Among others, there's {lo me denpa bu} which has the obvious issue of {denpa bu} referring to something ('cause letterals can be pronouns). {lo me la'e me'o denpa bu} but that's just too verbose for anyone to ever say. That being said, the way that I advocate, which is also advocated by some others, is {lo depybu'i} which makes surprising use of {bu}'s rafsi, -bu'i-.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[Sebastian]

Can't you just say "la'e me'o denpa bu", without "lo me..."?

What's the real difference between "me" and "la'e"?

And one more thing I would like to ask:

How do you express "triple periods" in lojban? For example, when someone start saying something but doesn't finish the sentence, but rather fade out in the middle of it, or similar cases.

And is there any lojbanic way to show that text has been omitted, for example in quotations?

mu'omi'e jongausib

Skickat från min iPhone

[Jacob Errington]

On 20 November 2012 23:03, Sebastian <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can't you just say "la'e me'o denpa bu", without "lo me..."?

 

What's the real difference between "me" and "la'e"?

Well for starters, their grammatical functions are entirely different, but in particular, me means "x1 is among the referents of [sumti]"; not sure off the top of my head what the x2 does under xorlo / xorxo {me}. As for {la'e}, it dereferences the sumti, and refers to those things to which the symbol of the sumti are indicative. In other words, {la'e zoi url http://example.org url} differs drastically from {lo me zoi url http://example.org url} because the former refers to the actual web site or its content, whereas the second refers still to another text.

 

And one more thing I would like to ask:

How do you express "triple periods" in lojban? For example, when someone start saying something but doesn't finish the sentence, but rather fade out in the middle of it, or similar cases.

Fading out like that can be ungrammatical in some cases, but in others it's something I'm not entirely sure how to render in Lojban.

 

And is there any lojbanic way to show that text has been omitted, for example in quotations?

Of course, there's a cmavo for that {li'o}. It's a UI, so a free modifier, and the surrounding text needs to stay grammatical.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 20 November 2012 23:03, Sebastian <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

And one more thing I would like to ask:

How do you express "triple periods" in lojban? For example, when someone start saying something but doesn't finish the sentence, but rather fade out in the middle of it, or similar cases.

Fading out like that can be ungrammatical in some cases, but in others it's something I'm not entirely sure how to render in Lojban.

    "co'e" would be the way that is analogous in most cases to a fadeout.  Like, you're driving along a dark deserted road, and suddenly, a UFO comes up, a beam envelops one of your passengers, and he fades out.  In shock, you can barely say, "la djan...co'e"

                --gejyspa

[Sebastian]

Skickat från min iPhone

21 nov 2012 kl. 13:06 skrev Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com>:

On 20 November 2012 23:03, Sebastian <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can't you just say "la'e me'o denpa bu", without "lo me..."?

 ?

 

What's the real difference between "me" and "la'e"?

Well for starters, their grammatical functions are entirely different, but in particular, me means "x1 is among the referents of [sumti]"; not sure off the top of my head what the x2 does under xorlo / xorxo {me}. As for {la'e}, it dereferences the sumti, and refers to those things to which the symbol of the sumti are indicative. In other words, {la'e zoi url http://example.org url} differs drastically from {lo me zoi url http://example.org url} because the former refers to the actual web site or its content, whereas the second refers still to another text.

 

And one more thing I would like to ask:

How do you express "triple periods" in lojban? For example, when someone start saying something but doesn't finish the sentence, but rather fade out in the middle of it, or similar cases.

Fading out like that can be ungrammatical in some cases, but in others it's something I'm not entirely sure how to render in Lojban.

 

And is there any lojbanic way to show that text has been omitted, for example in quotations?

Of course, there's a cmavo for that {li'o}. It's a UI, so a free modifier, and the surrounding text needs to stay grammatical.

Interesting! I didn't know about "li'o".

Can you give any example how to use that cmavo ?

Thanks for the answers by the way!

[Annie]

All that makes since, the full stop separating one word from a word that begins a vowel and all. However, I've seen it in the middle of words before. What's that for?

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[Michael Turniansky]

  No, not periods in the middle of words.  You've seen commas ("slaka bu" in lojban), which are syllable breaks to, for example, di-dipthongize vowel clusters that appear in a name.  For example, lo,is is "LOH-is" as opposed to "lois" which rhymes with the Englice "choice"

     --gejyspa

[Annie]

Oh OK. I have another question. I know that when you say a Lojban vowel, you add "bu" after it, but what do you say after a consonant?

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

Oh OK. I have another question. I know that when you say a Lojban vowel, you add "bu" after it, but what do you say after a consonant?

Lojban consonants are the letteral followed by "y.": by. cy. dy. fy. etc.
 

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 13:18:39 Annie wrote:
> All that makes since, the full stop separating one word from a word that
> begins a vowel and all. However, I've seen it in the middle of words
> before. What's that for? Sent from my iPod

It's actually separating two words, but they're written run together. For
example:

la .kot.divuár. na.e la .pyd. xazdo
Côte d'Ivoire not-and Tibet Asian
Côte d'Ivoire is not Asian, but Tibet is.

"kot.divuar" is two words, but a single name. "na.e" is two words, but a
single conjunction, and the second word begins with a vowel. ("naje" is also
two words, and logically the same conjunction, but it connects a different kind
of phrase.)

ta'e la .kot.divuár. du la xantyde'i xaskoi

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

[Annie]

Why would you want to elide two words together like that, when you can just space between them?

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

Why would you want to elide two words together like that, when you can just space between them?

Firstly, it's not eliding. The pauses are required by the grammar of Lojban, and {na.e} takes one less character than {na .e}. Furthermore, not having the space serves to visually group the words together, subtly signalling to readers that the two words are linked. With {na.e}, for example, the {na} modifies the {.e}, and in fact, the {na} makes no sense without the {.e}, and the {.e} means something else entirely without the {na}.

A .e B = A and B: "1 .e 1" = 1
A na.e B = !A and B, (not A) and B: "1 na.e 1" = "0 .e 1" = 0
A .enai B = A and !B, A and (not B): "1 .enai 1" = "1 .e 0" = 0
 

[mudri]

Because we can.

Seriously, spaces are often* unneeded, and running cmavo together into "cmavo clusters" can be clearer. A good example is with numbers, where I'd prefer to say {li pano} = "the-number 10", rather than {li pa no} (which is like writing "the-number 1 0"). Cmavo clusters are easy to split up; each cmavo starts with a consonant (other than apostrophe, but including full stop), which is followed by vowels, and maybe an apostrophe.

*(Not important:) If stress is marked (as it is in speech), no spaces are needed. Stress/spaces are needed to distinguish between {rodbo'e bai ko'a} and {rodbo'ebai ko'a}. Written with no spaces, they are {rodbó'ebaikó'a} and {rodbo'ébaikó'a}, respectively.

[Annie]

Oo, I mean why don't you take the full stop out and put the space? Besides, how do you pronounce words that have a full stop in themhis When I try to pause within the word, it sounds like there needs to be an apostrophe or something? 

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[Michael Turniansky]

  No, you misunderstand. It's not "a word that has a full stop in it".  It IS two words. The fact that they are written together with a full stop doesn't change that fact.  We can write "la djan. klama lo zarci mu'i lo nu vo'a se jersi .ii" as "ladjan.klama lozarci mu'ilonuvo'asejersi.ii' and it's still completely unambiguous (although a pain for humans to read) with the full stops indicating the one MUST pause there, otherwise it means something else.

          --gejyspa

[Annie]

Having the full stop or not makes a difference in the meaning ofthe wordhis

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

Having the full stop or not makes a difference in the meaning ofthe wordhis

No, denpa bu has nothing to do with a word's meaning. It's use is purely grammatical, as it serves to unambiguously delineate words.
 

[mudri]

There are no minimal pairs between words with and without denpa bu. In fact, you are free to leave it out (if you add all the spaces). But it's a good reminder to pause or add a glottal stop, and makes things look a bit clearer.

[Annie]

What do you mean by "delineate"his

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

What do you mean by "delineate"his

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/delineate
 

[Annie]

How in the world does a full stop "describe" a wordhisa

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

How in the world does a full stop "describe" a wordhisa

Definition 4, and to a lesser extent, 1, in this context. Since denpa bu is neither a picture or words, obviously definitions 2 and 3 are irrelevant.

Also, do you realize that you are ending your messages with "his" or occasionally "hisa"? (The individual letters, that is. I have no idea if they code for something in Braille.)
 

[Annie]

It's this crazy ipod. Next time, I'l try something else.

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