Re: [lojban-beginners] Bridi as Sumti

[Jonathan Jones]

bridi: broda ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o

sumti: lo broda be ko'a bei ko'e bei ko'i bei ko'o be'o

You only need bei and be'o if you're wanting the bridi to have the places after x2 filled, you only need be if you want the x2 filled, lo steals the x1 place.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Jaiden Bell <azur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can anyone help me understand how to turn a bridi into a sumti?

Thanks in advance.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[ianek]

It depends on what you want to achieve. If you want a sumti with
filled other places, do as aionys says. If you want an abstraction (to
refer to an event, fact, property etc.) you have to use some
abstractor, like {lo nu ko'a broda ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u [kei]} to refer
to an event described by the bridi.

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Jonathan Jones]

True, but regardless, you still have to lo (or le, or la) to make it a sumti. In your example, the nu converts the bridi into an event, and the lo converts the event into a sumti.

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[ianek]

You're very right.

[Sebastian]

I've noticed that the most common article for abstractions is le. Could somebody explain why?
What's the difference between "mi nelci le nu mi bajra" and "mi nelci lo nu bajra"?

Thanks in advance (how do you say go'i in lojban?)
/jongausib

Skickat från min iPhone

[Miles Forster]

Am 15.06.2012 14:03, schrieb Sebastian:
> I've noticed that the most common article for abstractions is le. Could somebody explain why?
> What's the difference between "mi nelci le nu mi bajra" and "mi nelci lo nu bajra"?

That's probably because you've been looking at old texts. Nowadays, it's
lo nu bajra.

--
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

[ianek]

On 15 Cze, 14:03, Sebastian <so.cool....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've noticed that the most common article for abstractions is le. Could somebody explain why?
> What's the difference between "mi nelci le nu mi bajra" and "mi nelci lo nu bajra"?

You're probably reading texts from before xorlo (http://www.lojban.org/
tiki/How+to+use+xorlo), {le} is not so common now.
Rule of thumb is, {le} refers to a specific object/abstract you have
in mind. In this case it's a specific event of running, probably known
from context. So the former would be "I like that I'm running" [or
"will be running" or "was running" etc., depending of the time of the
event] and the latter -- "I like running" (probably, because {lo} is
*not* an indefinite article; it has undefined definiteness).

mu'o mi'e ianek

> Thanks in advance (how do you say go'i in lojban?)

uinai mi na djuno

> /jongausib
>
> Skickat från min iPhone
>

[selpa'i]

Am 15.06.2012 14:03, schrieb Sebastian:

> Thanks in advance (how do you say go'i in lojban?)

.i ckire fi lo nu da'i do spuda

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

[Jonathan Jones]

"le" used to be the most common article because it was the most generic. While the most simple meaning of le- "something which the speaker describes as being one or more things that can be the x1 of [broda]" and lo- "something which actually is one or more things that is/are the x1 of [broda]", before the adoption of the "xorlo" proposal, lo had the additional restriction that what is being described must not only actually be a [broda] x1, but that it must also exist. So, for instance, to say "pa lo re gerku" would not merely state that you are talking about a single dog of two in total, but also that in the entirety of existence, there are only two dogs. Also, one can not refer to mythological creatures, such as unicorns, because at no time and in no place, so far as we are aware, at any rate, do unicorns exist. As you can see, this made the pre-xorlo definition of lo rather problematic, and because of this, it was seldom used.

Since the adoption of xorlo, however, all of the problematic portion of the meaning of lo has been dropped. The simplest way to show the difference between lo and le I can think of off the top of my head is this:

I have a dog which "thinks" it is a human. (By thinks, I mean it displays human mannerisms such as (attempting to) walk on two legs, eat at the table, use the toilet, take showers, put on clothes, etc.)

Because this dog is a dog, one cannot refer to the dog as "lo remna", however, one is able to refer to the dog as "le remna", because you aren't saying the dog /is/ a human, you are merely describing the dog as one due to the dog's human-like behaviours.

[Jonathan Jones]

Usually we just say {ki'e} for "thank you". I would probably go with {pu ki'e}, as a shortening of {pu nunja'e zo'e ki'e} or possibly {pu zo'e jalge ki'e}.

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[Jaiden Bell]

Okay thanks, I think that that makes some sense. But to be clear: the words be and be'o act as start and end indicators (sort of) and bei separates each sumti, correct?

On Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:11:40 PM UTC-4, aionys wrote:

bridi: broda ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o

sumti: lo broda be ko'a bei ko'e bei ko'i bei ko'o be'o

You only need bei and be'o if you're wanting the bridi to have the places after x2 filled, you only need be if you want the x2 filled, lo steals the x1 place.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Jaiden Bell <azur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can anyone help me understand how to turn a bridi into a sumti?

Thanks in advance.

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[Jonathan Jones]

Approximately. bei indicates that another sumti is being attached, sumti don't typically need anything to signal being separate- the "start indicator" - as you call it - lo is enough by itself.

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[Jaiden Bell]

So then what is the purpose of be and be'o?

[Jonathan Jones]

Just what you said.

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[Jaiden Bell]

Okay, thanks for the help!