"Closed"

[mudri]

My school was closed due to snow today. I attempted to express that fact in Lojban (with a few extras), but got stuck on describing that kind of "closed". There are two other words for different senses of the word ({ganlo} = closed passageway; {tolgubni} = closed group/source &c), but there's a bit more to a closed school/shop than the windows and doors being closed.

[jongausib]

I suggest:

{cu'urga'o}: g1 (entrance-way/store/company etc) is closed/shut/not open, preventing access to organized activity g_2=c1, by g₃.
{cu'urkalri}: k₁ (portal/passage/entrance-way) is open/ajar/not shut, permitting passage/access to _g2=k1, by g₃.

/jongausib

[Michael Turniansky]

  The lack of a word meaning "not open for business" has been a topic of discussion many many times in lojban's history.  Really, I'm not sure why there isn't a gismu for it, since it seems to be a very basic concept.  That would be very high on personal list for a gismu should baselining ever be released.

  In any event, if you really think about it, a case could be made for "spofu (be lo nu cuntu)" for this sense of "closed", since it's not available for its normal purpose.  Another possibility is "se dicra"

                           --gejyspa

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[la gleki]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:20:12 PM UTC+4, Michael Turniansky wrote:

  The lack of a word meaning "not open for business" has been a topic of discussion many many times in lojban's history.  Really, I'm not sure why there isn't a gismu for it, since it seems to be a very basic concept.  That would be very high on personal list for a gismu should baselining ever be released.

ba'anai do jbocre doi la gejyspa i seki'u bo ma'a bilga lo nu jundi lo nu jinvi fa do i ji'a la camgusmis pu cusku fi mi fe zoi gy I disagree with your words "Think 1000 times before creating new gismu" gy

i seki'ubo e'o do zbasu so'o lo glico xe fanva mupli be lo gismu poi se smuni simsa zoi gy not open for business gy i ce'o bo mi stidi tu'a lo cnino gse bacru

I remember you being a jbocre. Therefore, we should take your words into account. Besides, Robin told me once " I disagree with your words "Think 1000 times before creating new gismu".

Therefore, please create several english examples of the meaning "not open for business" or similar to it. Then I'll suggest a new gismu (it's sounding).

[Jacob Errington]

On 21 January 2013 13:04, mudri <jammya...@gmail.com> wrote:

My school was closed due to snow today. I attempted to express that fact in Lojban (with a few extras), but got stuck on describing that kind of "closed". There are two other words for different senses of the word ({ganlo} = closed passageway; {tolgubni} = closed group/source &c), but there's a bit more to a closed school/shop than the windows and doors being closed. 

Although it's not a totally satisfactory solution, you can simply use {na}. 

.i ri'agi snime carmi gi na ckule "Because of the snow, there was no school." (Now, to actually say that it was cancelled, you could use {sei lo jatna cu jdice} in the second bridi.)

.i ze'a lo nicte na zarci (This one is weirder:) "When it's night, it's not a store." This might seem a bit weird, but it makes sense. A store that's closed is a store you can't buy from, and is thus not a store anymore. This about it though, what I actually said for the school is "With-physical-cause snow, it's not a school."

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

 

[Sebastian]

Who has said anything about a new gismu in this case? To me it seems like an ordinary case of lujvo-creating.

Just that gejyspa wants to use a more precise veljvo than me.

I think it's understandable enough to use {cu'urga'o} for "closed for business".

mu'omi'e jongausib

Skickat från min iPhone

[Michael Turniansky]

 pamai mi cusku lu li'o ba'e va'o lo nu lo nu gismu finti cu se toldicra  li'u .i ku'i lo nu gismu finti ca na selcru lo catni .i mi na selci'i lo nu finti le gismu caku i ko tinbe la camgusmis
 .i remai pe'i do skudji zo mi'a .enai ma'a .i mi mi noroi jundi zo'oru'e .

(Firstly, I said ".../should/ baselining ever be released" But gismu creation is currently not allowed by the powers-that-be.  I am not interested in creating this gismu at the current time.  You should heed Robin.

  Secondly, I believe you meant "mi'a", not "ma'a".  I never pay attention to myself.)

 

               --gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

   My objection to using ganlo(/kalri) for these cases (even in lujvo form) is that the definition seems to be too narrowly defined ("portal/passage/entrance-way" access)  That would certainly be useful in describing one trying to get INTO the school building, but not the fact that physical access may be free, but the normal operation is suspended.  That's why I suggested spofu as a more metaphoric sense of not available for a normal function. 

            --gejyspa

[spitaki]

But that's so ambiguous, and the friggen point of lojban is to do away with ambiguity in every way! 

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:03 PM, spitaki <create...@gmail.com> wrote:

But that's so ambiguous, and the friggen point of lojban is to do away with ambiguity in every way! 

No it isn't. The point is to remove /syntactic/ ambiguity, not /semantic/.
 

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[la gleki]

On Saturday, March 2, 2013 10:18:07 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:03 PM, spitaki <create...@gmail.com> wrote:

But that's so ambiguous, and the friggen point of lojban is to do away with ambiguity in every way! 

No it isn't. The point is to remove /syntactic/ ambiguity, not /semantic/.

Can't lojban remove or increase semantic ambiguity too?

Well, closed/open is also very often found in computer related terminology. In both cases I suggested {jai pruce} or alternatively {akti} = "x1 is active in x2 [activity]".

so what is your opinion of {lo ckule na jai pruce} and {lo selsampla ku jai pruce} (the app is running)?

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:42 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 2, 2013 10:18:07 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:03 PM, spitaki <create...@gmail.com> wrote:

But that's so ambiguous, and the friggen point of lojban is to do away with ambiguity in every way! 

No it isn't. The point is to remove /syntactic/ ambiguity, not /semantic/.

Can't lojban remove or increase semantic ambiguity too?

Of course it can. That's what verbosity- or the lack thereof- is for. But that's not a uniquely Lojbanic thing. It's true of all languages. In general, semantic ambiguity is inversely proportional to verbosity.
 

Well, closed/open is also very often found in computer related terminology. In both cases I suggested {jai pruce} or alternatively {akti} = "x1 is active in x2 [activity]".

so what is your opinion of {lo ckule na jai pruce} and {lo selsampla ku jai pruce} (the app is running)?

No comment.
 

[v4hn]

On Sat, Mar 02, 2013 at 12:07:07AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:42 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 2, 2013 10:18:07 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:03 PM, spitaki <create...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> But that's so ambiguous, and the friggen point of lojban is to do away
> >>> with ambiguity in every way!
> >>>
> >>
> >> No it isn't. The point is to remove /syntactic/ ambiguity, not /semantic/.
> >>

ba'e remove syntactic ambiguity and ba'e reduce semantic ambiguity by choosing
different words for different things (unlike 'bank', 'fly', 'date', etc. in
NatLangs)

> > Can't lojban remove or increase semantic ambiguity too?
>
> Of course it can. That's what verbosity- or the lack thereof- is for. But
> that's not a uniquely Lojbanic thing. It's true of all languages. In
> general, semantic ambiguity is inversely proportional to verbosity.
>

That statement makes much more sense if you replace ambiguity by vagueness.
Ambiguity either is or isn't, depending on whether or not more than
one distinct class of circumstances is described by the sentence.
Vagueness is about the (non-)precision of the class described and
decreases with the amount of words you use to describe these circumstances.
But ok, of course the distinction between both words always depends
on your definition of 'distinct classes', which is vague in itself.


v4hn

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

"Unavailable" -> "not available" -> "can't be used" -> {na plika'e}

{lo mi ckule na se plika'e ca lo cabdei ri'a lo nu snime carvi} or,
depending on context
{mi na plika'e lo ckule ca lo cabdei ri'a lo nu snime carvi}

[la gleki]

On Saturday, March 2, 2013 5:42:15 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote:

"Unavailable" -> "not available" -> "can't be used" -> {na plika'e}

{lo mi ckule na se plika'e ca lo cabdei ri'a lo nu snime carvi} or,
depending on context
{mi na plika'e lo ckule ca lo cabdei ri'a lo nu snime carvi}

It's not that it *can* be used. It's just actually used or not used. And of course we all remember about another possibility with {se pilno}.

[Michael Turniansky]

  .... which still supports my contention that "spofu" is the right word for this context.

       --gejyspa

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2013 5:13:16 PM UTC+4, Michael Turniansky wrote:

  .... which still supports my contention that "spofu" is the right word for this context.

.iesai to ku'i mi xalbo milxe co'i jmina zo akti po'u zo tolspofu fi jyvysy toi