Pure-Lojban Dictionary definitions

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Alan Post

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Sep 5, 2010, 10:07:08 PM9/5/10
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I've been exploring the Pure-Lojban dictionary. I'm not able to use
jbofihe to parse the definitions in this dictionary, I presume
because of the use of x1, x2, ... xN. Here is the Pure-Lojban definition
of {dunda}:

http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=dict.pl1&Query=dunda&Strategy=*&Database=jbo-%3Ejbo&submit=Submit+query

Will someone help me read the definition:

{x1 noi ponse x2 cu gasnu lo nu x3 co'a ponse x2}

I'm exploring ways in which I can extend {valsi porsi} (Craig's
Lists) in {lo do ckiku ma zvati} ("Where are your Keys?") to include
not only the gismu, but the places (predicate arguments) for each gismu
as well.

I was hoping the Pure-Lojban dictionary would provide a hint as to
how I might talk about these places, so I was surprised to see what
appear to be ungrammatical definitions.

Can someone share a) an understanding of how the definition of {dunda}
might be translated into something jbofihe can parse b) help me
describe the "beg, borrow, steal" list to include predicate
arguments as well as the predicate forms themselves? (this might be
easier to do with the {skari} list:

http://lodockikumazvati.org/valsi_porsi/gismu/skari/

Thank you!

-Alan
--
ko djuno fi le do sevzi

Jonathan Jones

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Sep 5, 2010, 10:41:54 PM9/5/10
to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com, lojban-b...@lojban.org
On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Alan Post <alan...@sunflowerriver.org> wrote:
I've been exploring the Pure-Lojban dictionary.  I'm not able to use
jbofihe to parse the definitions in this dictionary, I presume
because of the use of x1, x2, ... xN.  Here is the Pure-Lojban definition
of {dunda}:

 http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=dict.pl1&Query=dunda&Strategy=*&Database=jbo-%3Ejbo&submit=Submit+query

Will someone help me read the definition:

 {x1 noi ponse x2 cu gasnu lo nu x3 co'a ponse x2}

Usually, IIRC, "xN" is translated into Lojban as {ko'V}, so {ko'a noi ponse ko'e cu gasnu lo nu ko'i co'a ponse ko'e}

I'm exploring ways in which I can extend {valsi porsi} (Craig's
Lists) in {lo do ckiku ma zvati} ("Where are your Keys?") to include
not only the gismu, but the places (predicate arguments) for each gismu
as well.

I was hoping the Pure-Lojban dictionary would provide a hint as to
how I might talk about these places,  so I was surprised to see what
appear to be ungrammatical definitions.

Can someone share a) an understanding of how the definition of {dunda}
might be translated into something jbofihe can parse b) help me
describe the "beg, borrow, steal" list to include predicate
arguments as well as the predicate forms themselves?  (this might be
easier to do with the {skari} list:

 http://lodockikumazvati.org/valsi_porsi/gismu/skari/

Thank you!

-Alan
--
ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

Lindar

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Sep 5, 2010, 11:19:31 PM9/5/10
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I'm going to have to completely disagree with that definition.
{dunda} doesn't imply transfer of ownership, and that's exactly what
the lojban definition is saying.

Alan Post

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Sep 6, 2010, 12:03:52 PM9/6/10
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.i coi lindar.

.i mi cpedu lo nu kelci be zoi gy. Perfection Game .gy. ku do .i zoi .url.
http://www.liveingreatness.com/the-core-protocols/perfection-game.html .url.
judrysni zoi gy. Perfection Game .gy.

.i mo'u .alyn.

Jorge Llambías

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Sep 6, 2010, 1:52:29 PM9/6/10
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I think it was probably me that wrote the definition. I don't recall
it specifically, but I think nobody else has entered Lojban-Lojban in
jbovlaste.

It's not clear to what extent "ponse" is restricted to ownership as
opposed to other kinds of possesssion, but I would agee that "dunda"
is more general. I will change "ponse" to "tolcau". It's a bit strange
that Lojban lacks a basic word for such a concept as the opposite of
"claxu", but I guess it's a matter of getting used to it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Lindar

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Sep 7, 2010, 8:13:33 AM9/7/10
to Lojban Beginners
> It's not clear to what extent "ponse" is restricted to ownership as
> opposed to other kinds of possesssion, but I would agee that "dunda"
> is more general. I will change "ponse" to "tolcau". It's a bit strange
> that Lojban lacks a basic word for such a concept as the opposite of
> "claxu", but I guess it's a matter of getting used to it.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes

As I understood it, bevri is to have on one's person, ponse is to
actually own it.

Pierre Abbat

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Sep 7, 2010, 8:27:31 AM9/7/10
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On Tuesday 07 September 2010 08:13:33 Lindar wrote:
> As I understood it, bevri is to have on one's person, ponse is to
> actually own it.

"bevri" has an origin and a destination, so it doesn't correspond to "have".

Pierre

--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

Adam D. Lopresto

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Sep 9, 2010, 12:47:56 PM9/9/10
to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, 5 Sep 2010, Alan Post wrote:

> I've been exploring the Pure-Lojban dictionary. I'm not able to use
> jbofihe to parse the definitions in this dictionary, I presume
> because of the use of x1, x2, ... xN. Here is the Pure-Lojban definition
> of {dunda}:
>
> http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=dict.pl1&Query=dunda&Strategy=*&Database=jbo-%3Ejbo&submit=Submit+query
>
> Will someone help me read the definition:
>
> {x1 noi ponse x2 cu gasnu lo nu x3 co'a ponse x2}
>
> I'm exploring ways in which I can extend {valsi porsi} (Craig's
> Lists) in {lo do ckiku ma zvati} ("Where are your Keys?") to include
> not only the gismu, but the places (predicate arguments) for each gismu
> as well.
>
> I was hoping the Pure-Lojban dictionary would provide a hint as to
> how I might talk about these places, so I was surprised to see what
> appear to be ungrammatical definitions.

Yeah, the xN shortcuts have always bugged me, too.

> Can someone share a) an understanding of how the definition of {dunda}
> might be translated into something jbofihe can parse

I tend to prefer using {ce'u}, since it's pretty much ideal for this purpose.
So in a context where just a definition is expected, we'd use something like

ce'u xi pa noi ponse ce'u xi re cu gasnu lo nu ce'u xi ci co'a ponse ce'u xi
re

If we wanted write the complete definition, use something like

lo su'u dunda cu su'u ce'u xi pa noi ponse ce'u xi re cu gasnu lo nu ce'u xi
ci co'a ponse ce'u xi re


b) help me
> describe the "beg, borrow, steal" list to include predicate
> arguments as well as the predicate forms themselves? (this might be
> easier to do with the {skari} list:
>
> http://lodockikumazvati.org/valsi_porsi/gismu/skari/
>
> Thank you!
>
> -Alan
>

--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Jorge Llambías

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Sep 9, 2010, 3:12:52 PM9/9/10
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On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Adam D. Lopresto <ad...@pubcrawler.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2010, Alan Post wrote:
>>
>> I was hoping the Pure-Lojban dictionary would provide a hint as to
>> how I might talk about these places,  so I was surprised to see what
>> appear to be ungrammatical definitions.
>
> Yeah, the xN shortcuts have always bugged me, too.

The reason I used x1, x2, etc is to keep them consistent with the
style used in other languages. Even definitions in Chinese or Hebrew
use the xN convention, so I wasn't going to break it for Lojban.

>> Can someone share a) an understanding of how the definition of {dunda}
>> might be translated into something jbofihe can parse

If you read "x1" as "xy xi pa", they are grammatical (they even
include "boi" where needed so that that works).

I prefer ko'a, ko'e, etc. in non-jbovlaste contexts.

Michael Turniansky

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Sep 17, 2010, 4:06:08 PM9/17/10
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I respectfully disagree. Ponse can mean either ownership, or
simple "possessing" at this moment in time. As the English defintion
itself says: "x1 possesses/owns/HAS x2 under law/custom x3; x1 is
owner/proprietor of x2 under x3.
Notes: (x3 is generally more important to the concept than commonly
accepted for the English equivalent, _since the concept is
broader when unconstrained, and the nature/interpretation of
possession/ownership is very culturally dependent_)

So where x3 is undefined, it can very easily mean "has", as it says.
--Mike T.

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