elidable terminator discussion in CLL?

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.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 10:26:30 AM2/4/11
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The CLL frequently uses the phrase "elidable terminator." I'm
looking for a place in the book where this phrase is defined,
and preferably also a formal statement that elidable terminators
bind to their closest marker:

to to toi => (to (to toi))
lu lu li'u => (lu (lu li'u))

Is true, whereas:

to to toi => (to (to) toi)
lu lu li'u => (lu (lu) li'u)

Is incorrect.

Can someone point me to the chapter where this concept is discussed?
It is indirectly discussed all over the place, for specific
terminators, but I can't seem to find the principle described
anywhere.

I'm aware of the list of elidable terminators:

http://dag.github.com/cll/19/17/

But that page does not discuss usage or define them.

-Alan
--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

Michael Turniansky

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Feb 4, 2011, 11:48:29 AM2/4/11
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  I don't believer either actually exists.  The first reference to a terminator being elidable is Chapter 5.5 (and here ke'e isn't associated with the word "terminator").  The first use of the word terminator is in 5.7 with be'o.  Nor is is explicitly stated anywhere (that I've seen) the entire general concept that many grammatical in lojban are introduced with a cmavo, and closed with a terminator that may be elided under certain circumstance (Such as there being a terminator from an enclosing group, which implicitly terminates all internal groups that have not been terminated). It would probably be a good idea to include sucha conept in the CLL in English, but I don't think it exists.  Probably Computer Science people such as me never noticed this lack, because it seems intuitively obvious to our mindset, but yeah, it should definitely be stated somwhere.  (the end of Chapter 19 is as close as it comes, but yeah, basically, just a list, and obviously, the general concepts should probably be introduced earlier)
 
       --gejyspa


 

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.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 12:59:22 PM2/4/11
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I've added basically this note to the Suggestions for CLL, second
edition page. Thank you for confirming it doesn't exist in the CLL.

-Alan

> [2]http://dag.github.com/cll/19/17/


>
> But that page does not discuss usage or define them.
>
> -Alan
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> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org
> 2. http://dag.github.com/cll/19/17/
> 3. mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
> 4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en

Lindar

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Feb 4, 2011, 1:25:15 PM2/4/11
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Might I also recommend that in CLL2, if there is to be an English and Lojban version, we include in the English version the Lojban names of all of the grammar words. {fa'orma'o} for 'terminator', {sumtcita} for 'tag' or whatever you call it in English (modal?), {cnima'o} instead of 'attitudinal', etc. I think we as a group should start moving away from calling our words by English names. If we call them just by Lojban, then we don't have to worry how one would translate 'terminator' or completely nonce words like 'letteral' into any other language.

.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 1:37:23 PM2/4/11
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Will you collect these words and their English translations in one
place so I can use it as a reference?

I'd also like to use these words in the grammar specification, which
uses a lot of English production.

-Alan

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Lindar

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Feb 4, 2011, 2:13:18 PM2/4/11
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I don't have an exhaustive list of the English words, so I can't really say, but I'll rattle off a few.

gismu - ?? (it's a word-form)
cmavo - ??
selma'o - ??
bridi - ??
selbri - predicate
terbri - argument
cnima'o - 'attitudinal'
fa'orma'o - 'terminator'
gadri - article?
sumtcita - modal?
temtcita - specifically time-related (nonce guess)
tanru - ??
lujvo - ??
rafsi - ??
selrafsi - ??
zi'evla - ??
fu'ivla - 'borrow-word'
malgli - =D
ra'abri - 'clause' (like {noi})
terjonma'o - 'connective' ({.e} or {gi'e})

That's all I can get at the moment.

Jonathan Jones

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Feb 4, 2011, 3:24:48 PM2/4/11
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Here's the first few:
gismu - "root word" - http://dag.github.com/cll/4/4/
cmavo - "structure word" - http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/
selma'o - selma'o (subcategory) - http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/\
-(selma'o are referred to as selma'o throughout, with a brief mention of them being subcategories in the link)
bridi - predication - http://dag.github.com/cll/2/1/

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Pierre Abbat

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Feb 4, 2011, 3:29:52 PM2/4/11
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On Friday 04 February 2011 14:13:18 Lindar wrote:
> I don't have an exhaustive list of the English words, so I can't really
> say, but I'll rattle off a few.
>
> gismu - ?? (it's a word-form)
> cmavo - ??

function word

> selma'o - ??
> bridi - ??

clause

> selbri - predicate
> terbri - argument
> cnima'o - 'attitudinal'

?? - discursive

> fa'orma'o - 'terminator'
> gadri - article?
> sumtcita - modal?

The proper English translation of "sumtcita" is "adposition", but it is
customary in English to call them "prepositions" or "postpositions",
whichever occur in the language. Since all Lojban adpositions are
prepositions, we should call them that.

"Modal" is Lojbanic jargon for "preposition derived from a predicate", as
distinct from tense markers used as prepositions. In linguistic terminology
it refers to words like "ka'e".

> temtcita - specifically time-related (nonce guess)

I call them "tense markers". Linguists talk of TAM (tense, aspect, mood).
Lojban has spatial tenses as well. I don't know whether they should be
considered as a fourth category or lumped with the time tenses.

Even mood markers can be used as prepositions. What does "mi zbasu ka'e le
curnu" mean?

> tanru - ??

compound phrase?

> lujvo - ??

compound word, but some lujvo formed with cmavo aren't compounds in the
linguistic sense, but derivations.

> rafsi - ??

bound form

> selrafsi - ??
> zi'evla - ??
> fu'ivla - 'borrow-word'
> malgli - =D

Anglicism

> ra'abri - 'clause' (like {noi})

What's that? If you mean "subordinate clause", I'd say "vipybri", but that's
what I'd call "nu broda". "noi broda" is a skibri.

> terjonma'o - 'connective' ({.e} or {gi'e})

conjunction

Also we should have Lojban words for natlang grammatical terms. As some
features of natlangs are lacking in Lojban, some of these will be fu'ivla.

cmene - proper noun
cmevla - intrinsic proper noun ("John", as distinct from "Bear")
fauvla - verb
daivla - noun
skivla - adjective
adverbio - adverb
nalcme daivla - common noun
infinitivo - infinitive
participio - participle
tersu'i - case
vlacne - inflect (said of a word)
faurvlacne - conjugate
dairvlacne ja skivlacne - decline
tairmupli - form of a word
sumbasti, sumyma'o - pronoun

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 3:45:35 PM2/4/11
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ki'esai pi'er

mu'o mi'e .alyn.

.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 3:45:54 PM2/4/11
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Wonderful!

-Alan

On Fri, Feb 04, 2011 at 01:24:48PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Here's the first few:

> gismu - "root word" - [1]http://dag.github.com/cll/4/4/
> cmavo - "structure word" - [2]http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/
> selma'o - selma'o (subcategory) - [3]http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/\


> -(selma'o are referred to as selma'o throughout, with a brief mention of
> them being subcategories in the link)

> bridi - predication - [4]http://dag.github.com/cll/2/1/
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Lindar <[5]lindar...@yahoo.com>

> [6]lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.


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> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu
> do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. http://dag.github.com/cll/4/4/
> 2. http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/
> 3. http://dag.github.com/cll/4/2/\
> 4. http://dag.github.com/cll/2/1/
> 5. mailto:lindar...@yahoo.com
> 6. mailto:lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
> 7. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en

Lindar

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Feb 4, 2011, 4:16:45 PM2/4/11
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Well, the attached bridi would be a {skibri}, but the word itself ({noi} or {po'u} for example) would be a {skima'o}. I like that better than the current word, anyway.

.alyn.post.

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Feb 4, 2011, 7:03:08 PM2/4/11
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I've added the result of this thread (almost certainly with
mistakes) to the wiki:

http://lojban.org/tiki/gerna+tecyvla

Right now it is a list of Lojban => English translations.

mu'o mi'e .alyn.

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