zo braile

[Pierre Abbat]

So I've had this word in my head for months, but never really thought about
its place structure. There are Braille encodings for various alphabets and for
music. How about "x1 is written in the Braille encoding for x2"?

do'i braile lo zgike
It's in Braille for music.

Semi-related: How would you lojbanize "Haüy"? Neither "auis" nor "aiis"
(whatever consonant is added) sounds right to me. There were two Haüy
brothers; one founded the School for the Blind, and the other invented
crystallography.

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

[Annie]

How do you pronounce "Haúy"? I'm confused. What are you talking about with the braille stuff?

Sent from my iPod

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 21:58:55 Annie wrote:
> How do you pronounce "Haúy"? I'm confused. What are you talking about with
> the braille stuff?

It's "Haüy", not "Haúy". It's pronounced as three vowels: a as in father, u as
in French su, ee as in see. The two dots on "u" are there because otherwise
"au" would be pronounced as one vowel.

«braile» is a Lojban word I made up for "Braille", but I'm not sure of the
place structure.

Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.

[Anton Golov]

braile can't be a gismu for it as it doesn't obey the gismu format (CCVCV or CVCCV).  What about pecban (or pecbau), a combination of touch and language?

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 5:14:56 PM UTC+4, Anton Golov wrote:

braile can't be a gismu for it as it doesn't obey the gismu format (CCVCV or CVCCV).  What about pecban (or pecbau), a combination of touch and language?

but what's wrong with fu'ivla that is besides easily recognisable? 

[Anton Golov]

Nothing wrong with fu'ivla.  That'd be something like {bau,r,breil}, right?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/VeASrNYuT0wJ.

[Anton Golov]

Hm, just realised it has to end in a vowel.  {bau,r,breile}?

[ianek]

There are different kinds of fu'ivla. {banrbreile} or {cidjrkari} are
stage-3 fu'ivla. {braile} is a stage-4 fu'ivla. {bau,r,breile} is also
a correct stage-4 fu'ivla (according to vlatai), but it looks like a
failed attempt to a stage-3 fu'ivla. In case you're interested,
"stage-1 fu'ivla" are la'o-quoted foreign words ({la'o ly. spaghetti
ly.}) and "stage-2 fu'ivla" are foreign words lojbanized as cmevla
({la .spagetis.}). It is imprtant to note that all stage-3 fu'ivla
inherit place structure from their source gismu.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 27 Lis, 17:44, Anton Golov <jesy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm, just realised it has to end in a vowel.  {bau,r,breile}?
>

> On 27 November 2012 17:42, Anton Golov <jesy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Nothing wrong with fu'ivla.  That'd be something like {bau,r,breil}, right?
>

> >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.**com.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@**
> >>>> googlegroups.com.
>
> >>>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**
> >>>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en>
> >>>> .

[Annie]

The word is lojbanized as hisaui". How can you be unsure about the place structure of a word you made up?

Sent from my iPod

[iesk]

Given your description of the pronunciation, {a,i,is}, which to a Lojban grammarian would be identical with {aiis}, would seem plausible, wouldn't it?

-iesk

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:18:30 Annie wrote:
> The word is lojbanized as hisaui". How can you be unsure about the place
> structure of a word you made up?

Those are two separate questions. "Haüy" is a name, so however it's
lojbanized, it does not have a place structure. As to «braile», I proposed a
place structure, but I'd like your opinion (and others').

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

[selpa'i]

.i la Pierre Abbat cu cusku di'e

> So I've had this word in my head for months, but never really thought about
> its place structure. There are Braille encodings for various alphabets and for
> music. How about "x1 is written in the Braille encoding for x2"?
>
> do'i braile lo zgike
> It's in Braille for music.

I think that's good. I thought about this today and my main concern was
whether or not this would cause problems with saying "I am studying
braille" or "I like braille" etc because

mi nelci lo braile
I like things written in braille.

But the intended meaning can easily be achieved by making a lujvo
"brailyle'u" ("x1 is a braille letter/symbol in braille
alphabet/character-set x2 for encoding x3 representing x4") or something
like that.

lo brailyle'u mi melbi
Braille is beautiful to me.

What do you think?

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo je nai zo lejbo

doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi je sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo da'i pu cìtka lo gràna ku


.


.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Anton Golov <jes...@gmail.com> wrote:

braile can't be a gismu for it as it doesn't obey the gismu format (CCVCV or CVCCV).  What about pecban (or pecbau), a combination of touch and language?

"braile" is a fu'ivla, obviously.
 

On 27 November 2012 05:10, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org> wrote:

On Monday, November 26, 2012 21:58:55 Annie wrote:
> How do you pronounce "Haúy"? I'm confused. What are you talking about with
> the braille stuff?

It's "Haüy", not "Haúy". It's pronounced as three vowels: a as in father, u as
in French su, ee as in see. The two dots on "u" are there because otherwise
"au" would be pronounced as one vowel.

«braile» is a Lojban word I made up for "Braille", but I'm not sure of the
place structure.

Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 14:14:56 Anton Golov wrote:
> braile can't be a gismu for it as it doesn't obey the gismu format (CCVCV
> or CVCCV). What about pecban (or pecbau), a combination of touch and
> language?

That would be "pecybau", and the type-3 would be "bangrbraile" or
"banrbraile", but Braille isn't a language, it's a family of writing systems.
Knowing French Braille doesn't help much with reading Hungarian Braille, for
someone who doesn't know Hungarian. Knowing English Braille and spoken Korean,
one would have a hard time reading Korean Braille, as the encoding of letters
is completely different.

There is a tactile language, which could be called "pecybau". It's a variant
of sign language.

[ianek]

Maybe {peclermorna}?

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 23:39:12 selpa'i wrote:
> I think that's good. I thought about this today and my main concern was
> whether or not this would cause problems with saying "I am studying
> braille" or "I like braille" etc because
>
> mi nelci lo braile
> I like things written in braille.
>
> But the intended meaning can easily be achieved by making a lujvo
> "brailyle'u" ("x1 is a braille letter/symbol in braille
> alphabet/character-set x2 for encoding x3 representing x4") or something
> like that.
>
> lo brailyle'u mi melbi
> Braille is beautiful to me.
>
> What do you think?

For "I am studying braille" you could use an abstractor: "mi tadni lo su'u
braile" or "mi tadni lo si'o braile". Or you could say "la .brail." (which
could also refer to the inventor of the system).

Pierre
--
gau do li'i co'e kei do

[jongausib]

brailyle'u is not a valid lujvo. You can't have a fu'ivla and a gismu as a veljvo. In that case you'll have to use "zei".

For "braile zei lerfu" or just "braile" you can use any place structure, but something similar to that of "lerfu" would be nice, so my proposal is:

braile: "x1 is a braille letter/symbol in braille alphabet/character-set x2 representing x3" (I know it's almost the same as the one Pierre suggested but without the tersu'i "encoding x3" (omitted to make the lujvo more consistent compared to "lerfu")). You can surely add the place "encoding" in some other way via modal etc.

mu'omi'e jongausib

[selpa'i]

.i la jongausib cu cusku di'e

> brailyle'u is not a valid lujvo. You can't have a fu'ivla and a gismu as
> a veljvo.

Yes, you can. The PEG morphology gives every fu'ivla at least one rafsi.
You can add 'y or remove the last vowel and replace it with y. The first
method always works, but the second one works too in this case. (That
means we could equally well say "braile'yle'u" instead")

> braile: "x1 is a braille letter/symbol in braille alphabet/character-set
> x2 representing x3" (I know it's almost the same as the one Pierre

> suggested)

It's very different. Pierre suggested "x1 is written in braile" not "x1
is a letter of the braile alphabet". If braile is taken to mean the
former, then a lujvo like brailyle'u will be needed to refer to the
actual letters of the braile alphabet.

[Jacob Errington]

On 30 November 2012 11:33, jongausib <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

brailyle'u is not a valid lujvo. You can't have a fu'ivla and a gismu as a veljvo. In that case you'll have to use "zei".

Actually, {braile} being of the form CCVVCV is one of the forms to which (even) the CLL assigns what it calls a fu'ivla rafsi. Maybe you recall the example of {tci'ile} that it uses to demonstrate a use-case of this proposal?

Regardless, as selpa'i mentioned, the PEG gives a rafsi to *every* fu'ivla (even {.irci}, for example). That being said, we could create a lujvo for "irc bot" {.irci'yzmi}.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[Annie]

What's a fu'ivlahisa

Sent from my iPod

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[Annie]

What are veljvo and rafci?

Sent from my iPod

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

What are veljvo and rafci[sic]?

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/veljvo : veljvo = ve lujvo - x₄ is a metaphor with meaning x₂ and arguments x₃ for the compound predicate word x₁ (text).
http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/rafsi : rafsi - x₁ is an affix/suffix/prefix/combining-form for word/concept x₂, form/properties x₃, language x₄.

 

What's a fu'ivlahisa

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/fu%27ivla : fu'ivla = fukpi valsi - x₁=v₁=f₁ is a loanword meaning x₂=v₂ in language x₃=v₃, based on word x₄=f₂ in language x₅.
 

[Annie]

I know this might be a late response, but braile can't be a gismu because it has more than 5 letters.

Sent from my iPod

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

I know this might be a late response, but braile can't be a gismu because it has more than 5 letters.

As already mentioned, it's a fu'ivla.
 

--

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday, December 01, 2012 14:40:29 Annie wrote:
> What are veljvo and rafci?

A veljvo is the compound phrase that a compound word is made from. For
instance, the veljvo of "larlermorna" is "larcu lerfu morna". In Lojban one
would say "lu larcu lerfu morna li'u veljvo fo zo larlermorna", since "vel-"
(which is the rafsi of "ve") switches x1 and x4.

A rafsi is a combining form, also called a bound morpheme. "lar-" is a rafsi
of "larcu".

A fu'ivla is a borrowed word. Often "fu'ivla" is used to refer to the Lojban
word forms used for borrowed words, even if the "word" being discussed (such
as "agbagba", one of several wordoids made out of a few different letters) is
meaningless. A word of fu'ivla form whose source is something other than a
foreign language is called a zi'evla, e.g. "vonpaso", which is from Lojban
number words.

[Annie]

The fact that braile is a fu'ivla doesn't make it a gismu, does it?

Sent from my iPod

[Annie]

What would it be called if you borrowed a word from a different language, like if you didn't know a Lojban word?

Sent from my iPod

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

What would it be called if you borrowed a word from a different language, like if you didn't know a Lojban word?

A fu'ivla.
 

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Annie <park....@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:

The fact that braile is a fu'ivla doesn't make it a gismu, does it?

No, gismu are gismu, fu'ivla are fu'ivla. They are two different types of brivla. (And yes, I know that's two tautologies.)

You should really read the material that deals with this stuff before asking us. For example, it is quite easy to find out the meaning of Lojban words by using the online dictionary that is vlasisku (http://vlasisku.lojban.org), and I'm pretty sure all the learning resources, as well as the CLL itself, describe the types of Lojban words- how they appear, how they're used, etc.