except for

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shadowf...@gmail.com

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Oct 29, 2017, 6:38:54 AM10/29/17
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I'm way out of my depth here.  Can someone give me some pointers on how to say "except for"? Example: "Except for eels, I like all fish".

 Is this some sort of relative clause that I've not seen?

I see da'a for "everything except", but it's only supposed to take a number?

or can I use panra -- x1 is similar to x2 differing only by x3? "i lo angila te panra me nelci lo finpe" ? But I think that's "I'm similar to liking (fish except eels)"?!

Maybe I should go back to the Dick and Jane stuff for the moment...


solpahi

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Oct 29, 2017, 6:46:56 AM10/29/17
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On 28.10.2017 23:55, shadowf...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm way out of my depth here.  Can someone give me some pointers on how
> to say "except for"? Example: "Except for eels, I like all fish".
>
>  Is this some sort of relative clause that I've not seen?

"everything except for X" is equivalent to "everything that is not X".
The usual way to express this in Lojban is:

mi nelci ro finpe poi [ke'a] na .angila
I like every fish which [it] not eel
"I like every fish except for eels."

When you have referents that are the exception, then {po'u nai} can be
used to save space:

mi nelci ro finpe po'u nai ti
"I like every fish except for this one."

({po'u nai} is short for {poi ke'a na du})

Splitting the phrases as in your example is not really possible in
Lojban, because it would be ambiguous what the "except for eels"
attaches to, though if you wanted, you could say {fi'o nafselte'i lo'e
.angila mi nelci ro finpe}. I don't recommend it.

~~~mi'e la solpa'i

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shadowf...@gmail.com

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Oct 29, 2017, 5:57:16 PM10/29/17
to Lojban Beginners
i ui ki'e se do

Looks like I need to read that chapter in the reference on negation,
which I hadn't even seen up to now. Thank you...
 

Pierre Abbat

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Oct 30, 2017, 12:51:13 AM10/30/17
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On Sunday, October 29, 2017 11:46:56 AM EDT solpahi wrote:
> "everything except for X" is equivalent to "everything that is not X".
> The usual way to express this in Lojban is:
>
> mi nelci ro finpe poi [ke'a] na .angila
> I like every fish which [it] not eel
> "I like every fish except for eels."
>
> When you have referents that are the exception, then {po'u nai} can be
> used to save space:
>
> mi nelci ro finpe po'u nai ti
> "I like every fish except for this one."
>
> ({po'u nai} is short for {poi ke'a na du})

Both jbofi'e and camxes (at http://camxes.lojban.org) reject "po'unai". Is
there a newer version that accepts it?

Another useful phrase is "na'ebo":

na'ebo la .djan. lebna le botpi
Someone other than John took the bottle.

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

solpahi

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Oct 30, 2017, 7:05:10 AM10/30/17
to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com
On 30.10.2017 05:50, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> On Sunday, October 29, 2017 11:46:56 AM EDT solpahi wrote:
>> "everything except for X" is equivalent to "everything that is not X".
>> The usual way to express this in Lojban is:
>>
>> mi nelci ro finpe poi [ke'a] na .angila
>> I like every fish which [it] not eel
>> "I like every fish except for eels."
>>
>> When you have referents that are the exception, then {po'u nai} can be
>> used to save space:
>>
>> mi nelci ro finpe po'u nai ti
>> "I like every fish except for this one."
>>
>> ({po'u nai} is short for {poi ke'a na du})
>
> Both jbofi'e and camxes (at http://camxes.lojban.org) reject "po'unai". Is
> there a newer version that accepts it?

The "beta" and "experimental" options at
http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html accept it.

It is also accepted by zantufa
(http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.html).

Allowing NAI after any word is a well-known proposal (see
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/move_NAI_to_CAI). This simplification is in
common use.
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