One popular Russian song in Lojban

[gleki]

Hi from Russia. I'm very interested in Lojban language. Together with my pen friends
I decided to translate one text into Lojban. It's a popular Russian song called "Wonderful Distant Future".
Here is the accompaniment. And here is the song itself in Russian.

I also translated the song into English so that you can check my translation. English translation doesn't preserve the rhythm. Lojbanic does.

I hope you'll point out my mistakes so that i can make corrections and and then upload the song onto Youtube.

I can hear a voice from the Beautiful distant Future
A morning voice in a silvery dew.
I can hear the voice and a luring road
Is driving me mad like a merry-go-round in childhood
Refrain:
Oh the Beautiful distant Future !
Don't be cruel to me !
Don't be cruel to me !
Don't be cruel !
From a clear source
to the Beautiful distant Future,
to the Beautiful distant Future
I'm starting my way.

I can hear the voice from the Beautiful distant Future
It's calling me into wonderful lands.
I can hear the voice and it's strictly asking me
What I did today for tomorrow

I swear that I'll become more pure and kind
And will never leave my friend in trouble
I can hear the voice and I'm running in a hurry to the calling
Via a road where there are no trails

ti'e voksa to'o lozu melbi balvi
ku noi jbini fe lo cerni dirgo ku
.i da voksa ja'e makfa trina pluta
du'i lonu vofli ku macri'a mi

.i doi zu melbi balvi
ko ba fe mi na jursa
.i pe'u doi zu balvi
ko jimpe fi mi
.i fi lo klina krasi
fe lozu melbi balvi
.e lonu manci balvi
cu klama ca fa mi

ti'e voksa to'o lozu melbi balvi
ku noi klacpe lo tcemanci tutre ku
.i da voksa zo'u da ca junri cpedu
lu do gunka fi bavlamdei pu fe ma

.i mi nupre lonu mi ba vrude zmadu
gi'e sidju lo mi pendo ku roi ku
.i da voksa ja'e sutra bajra fa mi
fe lo pluta be fo li no farna ku

[.arpis.]

.i mi ji'a se rukybau .i ku'i mi zvati lo merko .i mi ba'e ba tinju'i lo selsa'a .i ku'i caku mi simlu co srera tu'a zo ti'e

Я тоже говорю по Русски, но я живу в Америке. Я послушаю песьню, но пока мне кажетсо йто слово "tu'a" не правельное.

I also speak Russian, but I'm in America. I am going to listen to the song, but I thing "tu'a" is the wrong word.

PS: Apologies for my bad Russian spelling and grammar; I never learned to write.
PPS: Apologies for my bad lojban expressivity; I'm still learning to write.

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Luke Bergen]

.u'i djisku zo tu'a ji zo ti'e

On Sep 20, 2011 2:48 PM, ".arpis." <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .i mi ji'a se rukybau .i ku'i mi zvati lo merko .i mi ba'e ba tinju'i lo
> selsa'a .i ku'i caku mi simlu co srera tu'a zo ti'e
>
> Я тоже говорю по Русски, но я живу в Америке. Я послушаю песьню, но пока мне
> кажетсо йто слово "tu'a" не правельное.
>
> I also speak Russian, but I'm in America. I am going to listen to the song,
> but I thing "tu'a" is the wrong word.
>
> PS: Apologies for my bad Russian spelling and grammar; I never learned to
> write.
> PPS: Apologies for my bad lojban expressivity; I'm still learning to write.
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 8:58 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi from Russia. I'm very interested in Lojban language. Together with my
>> pen friends
>> I decided to translate one text into Lojban. It's a popular Russian song
>> called "Wonderful Distant Future".

>> Here is the accompaniment<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEQ69ytcSGw&feature=related>.
>> And here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XueqDSQQcvA>is the song itself in

>> Russian.
>>
>> I also translated the song into English so that you can check my
>> translation. English translation doesn't preserve the rhythm. Lojbanic does.
>>
>> I hope you'll point out my mistakes so that i can make corrections and and
>> then upload the song onto Youtube.
>>
>> I can hear a voice from the Beautiful distant Future
>> A morning voice in a silvery dew.
>> I can hear the voice and a luring road
>> Is driving me mad like a merry-go-round in childhood

>> *Refrain:
>> **Oh the Beautiful distant Future !

>> Don't be cruel to me !
>> Don't be cruel to me !
>> Don't be cruel !
>> From a clear source
>> to the Beautiful distant Future,
>> to the Beautiful distant Future
>> I'm starting my way.

>> *

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

Interpreting as addressed to me, In which case I'm not sure what you're asking; I think I meant to use both words as I did.

2011/9/20 Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com>

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          Alex R

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

And after hearing the first 5 seconds of the song, I recognize it.

--

          Alex R

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

More commentary:

I'd say {voksa tirna} as opposed to {ti'e voksa}, because the point of {ti'e} is to express how you know something, not that you actually hear it.

I'd use {ra'i} rather than {to'o}, partially because I don't know what {to'o} does as a tag, and partially because {to'o} emphasizes literal movement, while {ra'i} emphasizes beginning/origination.

Fortunately, neither of these mess with the rhythm.

Also, just to make sure I'm not crazy here, the original Russian word which you translate as {balvi} doesn't mean "future" explicitly, right?

Continuing reading.

(The one thing I hate about lojban is the abundance of words where transposing two letters is a major mistake and the morphological plausibility of many others.  I'm looking at you right now, zo jbini and zo jibni. I initially misread the second line.)

You are aware that the {fe} in the second line is superfluous and you did it just for rhythm, I assume.
Also, the {noi} clause of the second line attaches to {lo [...] balvi}, which I assume is a mistake.

Perhaps the second line could be {gi'e vo'e jbini lo cerdirgo ku} (vo'e if you use my substitution; vo'a if you stick to your first line)?

In the third line, the thing after {ja'e} must be a sumti; and there are more mistakes in line four. And I can't figure out how to fix it without changing your meaning or breaking the rhythm.

Thinking in public here: {.i lo voksa zo'u mi lo maftri pluta / manci du'i lo nu verba cukmuvzdi}.

I'll think more later.

--

          Alex R

[Luke Bergen]

Alex: yep, I was addressing you.  Your lojban says "srera tu'a zo ti'e" but your english says {think "tu'a" is the wrong word}.  Which is the word that is wrong?  "tu'a" or "ti'e"?

ta'onai not in a location where I can easily listen to audio.  I'll give the audio a listen later.  I look forward to seeing it sync to your lyrics.  The only part that jumped out and gave me pause was the line with {ku roi ku}.  I'm not sure what {roi} does when not preceded by a number like that.

2011/9/20 Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglo...@gmail.com>

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

Ah; I was so busy trying to figure what was wrong with my lojban that I wasn't reading over my English.

I meant that "ti'e" is the wrong word.

Here's a link to Russian lyrics: http://www.justsomelyrics.com/1749938/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5-%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE-Lyrics

I look forward to seeing a second iteration of the lyrics that is correct lojban, and possibly contributing to them. I'm horrible at translating because I try to pack too much of the original literal meaning into the translation, but given someone else's to work with, I may be able to come up with something half-decent.

2011/9/20 Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com>

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          Alex R

[gleki]

>>Also, the {noi} clause of the second line attaches to {lo [...] balvi}, which I >>assume is a mistake.

How can I fix it so that "noi" is attached to "voksa" ?

Can you please post the correct translation not even taking the rhythm into account ?

[gleki]

>> The only part that jumped out and gave me pause was the line with {ku roi >> ku}.  I'm not sure what {roi} does when not preceded by a number like that.

"ku" terminate "lo" and "roi" means "always", aren't they ?

I just put "roi" in a place where I have one syllable for preserving the rhythm. What's wrong ?

[gleki]

>>Also, just to make sure I'm not crazy here, the original Russian word which >>you translate as {balvi} doesn't mean "future" explicitly, right?

I guess this word "dalyoko" in Russian was first introduced in Russian in this song. I believe it was bad grammar at that time. But now it's ok (probably because of this song :-) ) and it means "distant future".

So I translated it as "zu balvi". Is it correct ?

>>You are aware that the {fe} in the second line is superfluous and you did it >>just for rhythm, I assume.

I could use "cu" instead of "fe". I just took an unusual choice.

[gleki]

>>ti'e voksa to'o lozu melbi balvi

>>ku noi jbini fe lo cerni dirgo ku

I can't understand how to sumti "to'o..." and "noi..." can be equally applied to voksa ?

Even though I can change this sentence I wanna know the answer.

So anyway let's consider Version 2.

tirna fa mi lo zu melbi balvi voksa

ku noi jbini fe lo cerni dirgo ku

.i da voksa ri'a du'i lonu vofli

ku lo trina pluta ku macri'a mi

I wanna understand why I can't use "da voksa" when "da" means "exists".

As for "merry-go-round" I found no translation for it but suggested possible translation in the nearby topic (Several beginner's questions)

So here i had express similar feelings (lonuvofli, the process of flying)

[gleki]

And I thought that "noi" wasn't attached to the previous sumti cuz sumti with embedded sumti should be expressed using "be .... be'o" 

[.arpis.]

{ro roi} means always. The word before {roi} needs to be a number, specifying "how many times".

{da voksa} translates pretty much to the phrase "есть голос", and in lojban makes {voksa} the word expressing the main relationship in the sentence (in lojban terms, {voksa} is the selbri). In the original, the main relationship was that of {rinka} (or taken literally, {cargau}).

The current sentence:

.i da voksa ri'a du'i lonu vofli

ku lo trina pluta ku macri'a mi

doesn't parse successfully, because there are two selbri ({voksa} and {macri'a}). Also, ri'a and du'i don't add together; it becomes something more like {ro'a zo'e du'i lo nu volfi ku}

Neither {to'o} nor {noi} are sumti. {to'o} is a tense tag, so when it precedes the selbri it means that the entire sentence (bridi) is in some sense leaving somewhere; when it precedes a sumti, it means that the action of the bridi is physically moving away from that sumti.

{noi} must follow a sumti, and whatever is in the {noi ... ku'o} must be a bridi, and that bridi describes the sumti.

{cu} instead of {fe} would have been grammatically wrong; {cu} must come immediately before the selbri.

{lo zu balvi} is a weird construction to me; it means "the thing which far in the past or in the future was/will be a future". Maybe {lo darbalvi} is better?

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 4:35 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

And I thought that "noi" wasn't attached to the previous sumti cuz sumti with embedded sumti should be expressed using "be .... be'o" 

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[gleki]

What is the terminator for noi, for ra'i and for to'o ? 

[gleki]

As for "lo zu balvi" I thought that it means "the future that has some aspect of long distance in time" so that zu can be used as an adjective.
I came to this conclusion from the official definition:
zu "time tense distance: long distance in time."

[gleki]

Can I say "doi lo melbi balvi ku" or it's ingrammatical? if only "doi melbi balvi" then do I have to terminate doi in this case ?

[gleki]

Is this

.i to'o klina krasi

cu fa'a melbi balvi

.e lozu manci balvi

ku klama ca fa mi

also incorrect ?

Should I wrap "klina krasi"  and "melbi balvi" with lo...ku in this verse ?

[Luke Bergen]

You may find this useful:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/elidable+terminator

In answer to your question, "ku'o" terminates NOI, I believe that since "ra'i" is of BAI and BAI are fundamentally tags like FA, it doesn't have a terminator.  I think the same is true of FAhA as well so same thing for to'o

On Sep 23, 2011 11:22 AM, "gleki" <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the terminator for noi, for ra'i and for to'o ?
>

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[gleki]

And the same question about this bridi

lu do gunka fi bavlamdei pu fe ma [li'u]

should I necessarily say "fi lo bavlamdei" if gunka is the selbri ?

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

The terminator for {noi} is {ku'o}. {ra'i} and {to'o} don't have or need terminators.

{zu} cannot be used as an adjective in this way.

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          Alex R

[gleki]

How should I say in lojban correctly

"I hear a voice therefore the road is amazing me" ?

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

{doi lo melbi balvi ku} is grammatical, but a little weird.

If you say {doi melbi balvi}, you may need to terminate the {doi} (using {do'u}), depending on the next words.

You should put all your questions into one email.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:31 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can I say "doi lo melbi balvi ku" or it's ingrammatical? if only "doi melbi balvi" then do I have to terminate doi in this case ?

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          Alex R

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

This is incorrect for the same reason that {.i broda cu brode} is incorrect.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of the difference between selbri and sumti; you should look at this: http://jbotcan.org/wave_lesson/
It's basic and incomplete, but it covers that bit pretty well.

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          Alex R

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

You need to say {fi lo bavlamdei} instead of {fi bavlamdei}.

The statement {do gunka fi lo bavlamdei pu fe ma} translates to "What were you working on with the goal of tomorrow?", and only makes sense to me if you are trying to prevent the end of the world, and even then should be {do gunka fi tu'a lo bavlamdei pu fe ma} or {do gunka fi lo nu bavlamdei ku pu fe ma}

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          Alex R

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

{mi tirna lo voksa .i ja'e bo lo pluta ku se manci mi} is one way, and it is the most direct translation of what you said.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:36 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

How should I say in lojban correctly

"I hear a voice therefore the road is amazing me" ?

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          Alex R

[gleki]

OK, then is the phrase


.i doi lo melbi balvi
ku ko fe mi na jursa


grammatical ?


And one more question. How to say
"I'm going to London from Paris via a road by bus"


using to'o, fa'a, pa'o, sepi'o or other sumtcita instead of place tags ?


I just wanna see how can all those constructions be equally attached to "klama" instead of embedding into one another.

[gleki]

So here is my new translation.


Please check this one.


VERSION 3.


tirna fa mi fe lo melbi balvi voksa

ku noi jbini fe lo cerni dirgo ku

.i da voksa .ije du'i lo nu vofli

ku lo trina pluta ku macri'a mi

.i doi lo melbi balvi
ku ko fe mi na jursa

.i pe'u doi darbalvi
ko jimpe fi mi
.i fe lo klina krasi
ku fi lo melbi balvi
.e lo nu manci balvi

ku klama ca fa mi

tirna fa mi fe lo melbi balvi voksa

ku noi klacpe lo tcemanci tutre ku

.i lo voksa ku noi junri cpedu ca lu
fi lo balvi zmadu pu do gunka ma


.i mi nupre lo nu mi ba vrude zmadu
gi'e sidju lo mi pendo ku ro roi
.i da voksa .ije sutra klama fa mi
pa'o lo no farna barna pluta ku

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

You could say {mi klama seka'a la lyndn teka'a la paris veka'a lo pluta xeka'a lo sorprekarce}, but I don't think that's what you wanted.

{mi kalma pa'o lo pluta to'o la lyndn fa'a la paris sepi'o lo sorprekarce} is what you want; bearing in mind that the TAG SUMTI constructs can be rearranged in any way with respect to each other, and that {pa'o} means something rather different than the 4th place of {klama}.

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          Alex R

[.arpis.]

The first verse is great.
The refrain is great, except that I'd suggest seeing if you can use {co'a} as a tense for the last {klama}.

{tutre} doesn't appear to be a word, and {tutra} doesn't seem to make sense in its place. Be aware that the first two lines indicate {lo voksa cu klacpe lo tcemanci tutre}.

{cpedu} is more like просит than like спрашивает. The second half of the second verse is ungrammatical because it doesn't have a main selbri. {ca lu ...} means that {junri cpedu} is happening at the same time as {lu ...}, whatever that means.
It's just barely okay not to terminate {lu} because you're in a song and a new verse is starting, but in conversation, this would be confusing.

The last line of the second verse isn't what you meant: first of all, {pu do gunka} means "work before you" and since "you" is not a point in time, it doesn't make much sense; second, tags continue to increase if not explicitly tagged, so you have {fi lo balvi zmadu pu do gunka fo ma}, which doesn't make sense since {gunka} doesn't have a fourth place.

The first part of the last verse is great.
The last line of the last verse seems wrong, though. I still don't like {pa'o} when what you really mean is {mo'i re'o} or {ve ka'a}, and {lo no farna barna pluta} means that the path doesn't exist, not that the trace doesn't exist.

Thank you very much for doing this, and I look forward to your next attempt, which will probably be ready or almost ready.

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