Sandwich is better than eternal love. Proof.

[la gleki]

This question appeared in the russian casnu stuzi.

What can be better than eternal love? Nothing. 

Sandwich is better than nothing.

Therefore, sandwich is better than eternal love.

How can we disprove this statement in lojban?

[Pierre Abbat]

The translation of "nothing" is different.

ma xagmau lo vitno nunprami? noda
.i lo snuji cu xagmau lo nomei

There's also "lo nondza". I'm not sure whether it would fit in either sentence.

mu'omi'e .pier
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

[v4hn]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 01:43:07AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> This question appeared in the russian casnu stuzi.

Sorry for ignoring your question, though it's an interesting one and
I'm not sure pier's solution works out..

But I was confused about your usage of {casnu stuzi} for "discussion site/page",
for {stuzi} clearly does not refer to "site" in the "page" sense, but
"site" in a geometrical sense.

However, /who the hell/ came up with {samci'ejudri} for "website"? {ba'e cfipu}
(confusing) Even something like {te ciska} (something someone can write on/to)
is _much_ better. {samci'ejudri} covers aspects of websites which are very different
from what people mean by the word. I know there was a discussion about that
quite some time ago, but is there some simple way of expressing "content bearer"
(which could be combined with {kibro}) or some other way to express this
(probably something generalizing the meaning of physical page )...


v4hn

[la gleki]

There is. It's {se tcidu}  and {te tcidu}.

However, {ju'o} (I'm sure) that {papri} (page) will soon lose the word "physical" from it's definition.

v4hn

[Jacob Errington]

To be perfectly honest, any "jargon" term (and yes, forum is a jargon term as far as Lojban is concerned, I think) created from lujvo will either be very wet (I love saying that, from {cimjvo}) or extremely long. In both cases, the benefits of the compositionality of lujvo lessens considerably. 

This is what motivated me to define a whole pile of {jvozi'evla} for computer terms. Morphologically speaking, they're fu'ivla, but they're made from rafsi with vowels and consonants chopped out and hyphens added in. There's some recognizability of the components, but it's slight, just enough to hint at the meaning. The advantage of using zi'evla is that the place structure can be pretty arbitrary, unlike with lujvo, where (depending on how strictly the rules are followed) places must be included and in a certain order.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

.i sei jmina se'u .u'u mi spuda lo nu tavla fi na'e bo lo selsnu kei lo nu ca'o tavla fi na'e bo lo selsnu

[P.S. I apologize for responding to offtopic talking with continuing to talk about offtopic stuff.]

[v4hn]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 05:24:16AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> There is. It's {se tcidu} and {te tcidu}.

Well sure, on what you can write,
from that you can read most of the time...

> However, {ju'o} (I'm sure) that {papri} (page) will soon lose the word
> "physical" from it's definition.

Well, I would like to use it that way for sure.
A page in a pdf file is a page as well for example.

I suppose, I'll use {kibypapri} for website if nobody objects...


v4hn

[Jonathan Jones]

That's what we usually do. And {kibystu} for website, I believe.

v4hn

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[v4hn]

On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 01:07:40PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 12:32 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 05:24:16AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> > I suppose, I'll use {kibypapri} for website if nobody objects...
>
> That's what we usually do. And {kibystu} for website, I believe.

Objecting? Yes, we just discussed that in another thread {.ui}

Somehow I mixed stuff up, I'm sorry, I regularly do so.. {o'anai}
For the intuitive sense, {kibystu} is probably fine...

I think {kibystu} relates more to a domain/platform (or subdomain, ...)
whereas {kibypapri} relates to a specific website then...


v4hn

[ianek]

More like a website and web page.
Eg. Facebook is a website, your profile on Facebook is a specific page
on that website.

mu'o mi'e ianek

>
> v4hn
>
>  application_pgp-signature_part
> < 1KWyświetlPobierz

[MorphemeAddict]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org> wrote:

On Monday, December 31, 2012 01:43:07 la gleki wrote:
> This question appeared in the russian casnu stuzi.
>
> What can be better than eternal love? Nothing.
> Sandwich is better than nothing.
> Therefore, sandwich is better than eternal love.
>
> How can we disprove this statement in lojban?

The translation of "nothing" is different.

ma xagmau lo vitno nunprami? noda
.i lo snuji cu xagmau lo nomei

There's also "lo nondza". I'm not sure whether it would fit in either sentence.

Per Chapter 3.7 CLL, "nonydza", no? 

stevo 

mu'omi'e .pier
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

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[ianek]

On 1 Sty, 22:10, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Pierre Abbat <p...@bezitopo.org> wrote:
> > On Monday, December 31, 2012 01:43:07 la gleki wrote:
> > > This question appeared in the russian casnu stuzi.
>
> > > What can be better than eternal love? Nothing.
> > > Sandwich is better than nothing.
> > > Therefore, sandwich is better than eternal love.
>
> > > How can we disprove this statement in lojban?
>
> > The translation of "nothing" is different.
>
> > ma xagmau lo vitno nunprami? noda
> > .i lo snuji cu xagmau lo nomei
>
> > There's also "lo nondza". I'm not sure whether it would fit in either
> > sentence.
>
> Per Chapter 3.7 CLL, "nonydza", no?

vlatai agrees:
$ vlatai nondza
nondza : UNMATCHED : nondza
$ vlatai nonydza
nonydza : lujvo : nonydza

mu'o mi'e ianek

>

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, January 01, 2013 16:10:51 MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Per Chapter 3.7 CLL, "nonydza", no?

Yes.

Pierre
--
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 1:57 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 01:07:40PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 12:32 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 05:24:16AM -0800, la gleki wrote:

> > I suppose, I'll use {kibypapri} for website if nobody objects...
>
> That's what we usually do. And {kibystu} for website, I believe.

Objecting? Yes, we just discussed that in another thread {.ui}

No, use kabypapri for web pages...
 

Somehow I mixed stuff up, I'm sorry, I regularly do so.. {o'anai}
For the intuitive sense, {kibystu} is probably fine...

I think {kibystu} relates more to a domain/platform (or subdomain, ...)
whereas {kibypapri} relates to a specific website then...

Right. www.google.com is a website, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/lojban-beginners/6Q4TCfEtmQM is a web page.
 

v4hn

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 1:57 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 01, 2013 at 01:07:40PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 12:32 PM, v4hn <m...@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 05:24:16AM -0800, la gleki wrote:

> > I suppose, I'll use {kibypapri} for website if nobody objects...
>
> That's what we usually do. And {kibystu} for website, I believe.

Objecting? Yes, we just discussed that in another thread {.ui}

No, use kabypapri for web pages...
 

Somehow I mixed stuff up, I'm sorry, I regularly do so.. {o'anai}
For the intuitive sense, {kibystu} is probably fine...

I think {kibystu} relates more to a domain/platform (or subdomain, ...)
whereas {kibypapri} relates to a specific website then...

Right. www.google.com is a website, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/lojban-beginners/6Q4TCfEtmQM is a web page.

(I wasn't agreeing with what said, I was agreeing with what you meant. A web site is a domain.)

v4hn

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[la gleki]

The fewer affixes/words you use the more vague your speech must become.

Therefore, {papri} is any page and it has several subsets.

{kibypapri} is for cyber-space.

{plepapri} is for book pages.

[Annie]

i still, after reading this message think eternal love is more important. besides, love for anamite

Sent from my iPod

On Dec 31, 2012, at 11:21 AM, "neizyn." <sja...@gmail.com> wrote:

The trick lies in saying that nothing is better than eternal love--which can be misread, or at least given the opposite intonation of the intended meaning.

And the other thing is, saying a sandwich "is better than nothing" could be damning with faint praise, but in this case it acquires a "one in hand, 2 in the bush" kind of meaning--meaning it has potentially infinite value.

 

Is there a way to say every alternative to being loved (e.g. going skating, or even not owning anything) is better?

But I think the implication is here too is that LOVE CAN BE POSSESSED hence the eternal because you have it always. Well, to me it seems it's not so much eternal as life-long but..."I would rather have a sandwich now than someone's life-long love"? "Does being loved forever fill my stomach now?" Priorities.

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[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 31 December 2012 08:34, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo.org> wrote:
> On Monday, December 31, 2012 01:43:07 la gleki wrote:
>> This question appeared in the russian casnu stuzi.
>>
>> What can be better than eternal love? Nothing.
>> Sandwich is better than nothing.
>> Therefore, sandwich is better than eternal love.
>>
>> How can we disprove this statement in lojban?

Reification of quantifier expressions is an old fallacy:
http://dag.github.com/cll/16/1/

Here, I believe that in addition to this we also have an issue of
implicit abstraction and scope.
{no da xagmau lo du'u vitno lo ka se prami} ( ~ {no da xagmau lo
du'u ze'eba se prami})
{lo du'u citka su'o snuji cu xagmau lo du'u citka no da}

I guess this is what makes the different "nothing"s appear to have
different translations.

>
> The translation of "nothing" is different.
>
> ma xagmau lo vitno nunprami? noda
> .i lo snuji cu xagmau lo nomei
>

I see there has been some argument about the logicality of {lo nomei}.
I think this expression
is at least non-standard. If mi citka lo nomei, is it true that mi citka?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.