What is the lifetime of an internal combustion engine ie gas (gaseous fuelled) or diesel engine

[dave andrews]

Hi James - please add this description to the wiki page on the claverton site.

Thanks

Dave A

ja...@mweb.co.za

James Ashforth (South Africa) BSc Electrical Engineering Worked briefly in engineering as a junior process and control engineer before deciding to change direction-> MSc Financial Mathematics (pending) Interested in alternative energy, and effluent treatment. Also the pricing [valuation] of power plants.

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:02:40 +0200
Subject: Question about Diesel Generator Lifetime

Hi!

 

I am doing a project and have a question on the lifetime of a diesel generator set.  I found you via a reference  on Wikipedia under Diesel Generators.  I hope you don't mind answeting my question.  I cannot get an answer from people I have approached at my university.

 

With regard to a 2 MW generator set (say Cummins), I would like to know the expected lifetime in years (or MWh), assuming it is running continously at rated load for continous operation.  Just a rough idea would be fine.  Assume it is maintained from time to time when necessary.  I have no idea.  Would it last for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

 

Thank you very much indeed.

 

Regards

James (Ashforth)

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[dave andrews]

James - that should answer your question, but essentially a diesel or a gas engine, of industrial quality such as Jenbacher, Deutz, Caterpiller, Wartsila etc have indefinite lives.

 

As Andy says, most of the wearing parts can be replaced - cylinder heads, turbos, valves, but these are not discarded they are re manufactured - so the cylinder head taken of after 15,000 hours gets new seats, valves and springs, and gets shipped out to a completely different engines next time it needs some heads. The main components of the engine - the block and the crank will never wear out.

 

You can today purchase a 10 - 15 year maintenance contract with the above engine manufactures, and they will undertake to replace all the bits that need replacing over the period, for the princely sum of about 0.8 p/kWh, including unscheduled breakdowns including major failures.

 

The equivalent charge for a coal fired power stations, might be around 0.5 p/kWh  - I invite Chris Hodrien to tell us what the life cycle maintenance cost of a GT is on a similar, all inclusive basis is but I would guess it is around 0.35p/kW.

 

Again Chris will enlighten us no doubt but my understanding is that the hot parts of a GT have to be entirely replaced every 6 years.

 

I hope this answers your questions.

 

Kind Regards

 

Dave Andrews

On 16 August 2010 09:12, Andy Chinnery - Insight Inspection <achi...@insightinspection.co.uk> wrote:

Hi James,

 

This is a very subjective question, but one that gets asked a lot! The best answer is that it’s like ‘Trigger’s Broom’ – ie so long as the handle and head get replaced just before they wear out, it will last forever!

 

There are so many variables that go into maintaining and running a diesel set on continuous load that I really could write pages on the subject.

 

However, so long as a good quality oil is used, and the manufacturer’s O&M instructions are adhered to, then a modern Diesel set will give many years of reliable operation. Most engine lives are determined not by wearing out (as virtually all wearable parts are changeable) but by financial targets and technology improvements. I would estimate that by the time a unit has reached 15 years in age, it will have easily passed all of its financial obligations, but will have been superseded by a model with better fuel consumption, lower emissions, cheaper O&M costs. It is therefore around this age that units (certainly of this size) are changed out for the newer model. It should also be noted that there is also a very active market for the used/older lower tech models in developing countries and so spares are available for many years after this period.

 

So to answer your question, I would look more at the project performance criteria rather than the engine, and us inputs such as the capital costs, O&M cost per kWhr, lube oil & fuel costs etc.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best regards

 

Andy

 

Andrew Chinnery

 

 

 

 

 

Yellow Power Ltd, Haywood Mill, Mill Lane, Great Haywood ST18 0RJ

 

Tel:       +44 (0)1889 882255

Fax:      +44 (0)1889 878040

Mobile: +44 (0)7563 365777

Email:   achi...@yellowpower.com

Web:    www.yellowpower.com

 

 

 

From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of dave andrews

Sent: 14 August 2010 17:05

To: Claverton AB MAIN GROUP; engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com; localdisperseddecentral...@googlegroups.com; Dhatherill@Finning. Co. Uk; achi...@insightinspection.co.uk

Subject: What is the lifetime of an internal combustion engine ie gas (gaseous fuelled) or diesel engine

 

Hi James - please add this description to the wiki page on the claverton site.

Thanks

Dave A

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[dave andrews]

James - Reference your further question below, and re copied,I  think Andy Chinnery has probably given the best answer to your question - for a base load, properly installed and maintained industrial type - Caterpillar, Wartsila, Cummins, Deutz, etc  ( not light weight only intended for standby duty eg some of the older Perkins say) the economic life is probably 10 - 30 years.

 

Its usually the application - the factory or pumping station that will become obsolete before the engine.

 

As said, a proper industrial engine, will be economically operable and maintainable indefinitely at quite a low price - 0.8p/kWh.

 

To take a case in point, the Avonmouth Wessex Water duel fuel engines which were installed in 1964 were still running perfectly well 6000 hours per year until about 2005 when they were changed by yours truly for modern spark ignited engines, simply because the old dual fuel engines were too expensive on the pilot diesel, 15%,  and in the 60s good spark ignited gas engines were simply not available.

 

But the duel fuels would have gone on forever.

 

I have visited the Sewage Works in Marshall's town Illinois, and they had there a Caterpillar 600kW engine with 225,000 hours on the clock - all they did was every so often change the heads!

 

It may still be going strong for all i know.

 

If you look on the Claverton site you will see an entire 9 MW gas engine power station for sale, and these engines have about 60,000 hours on the clock each, and they appear to be going for around half the new  price.

 

These engines are only for sale, because they used up the stranded gas pocket not because the engines are worn out.

 

Kind regards

 

Dave Andrews

 

Hi!

First of all, many thanks to all for the very detailed replies.  It is
much appreciated.

I realise that I should have been more specific by saying *economic*
lifetime.

If anyone could answer this followup question it would be very helpful
indeed:

Assuming one of the more reliable engines that was mentioned, after
10000 hours with the necessary maintenance and good practice [i.e.
well maintained], what would one expect to get if one then sold the
Genset, in terms of its original cost. Maybe 50 % of its original
cost?  I realise these are subjective questions and the whole question
of lifetime is subjective.  Just a ballpark estimate would be great.

Cheers
James

On 16 August 2010 22:42, Dele Jagun <de...@jagun.org> wrote:

Hi James,

 

After reading through the contributions on this topic, I like to add that with 15 years + experience working with  gensets driven by diesel engines of Perkins Cummins, Deutz, Mirless Blackstone, MTU, Watsila etc in Nigeria - -where many gen sets are used in prime power applications (and not as a standby to Mains supply like in Europe), technically speaking, engines can truly go on for ever if well maintained but some engines are more durable than others, Hence the engine type, its application and region of use are also factors to consider in determining its life span. With due respect to these engine manufacturers, one brand is notorious for not being reliable above 0.5MW or 0.8MW and you would be lucky to get 8000hrs before major breakdowns and overhauls if used in prime power applications. They do much better in as standby sets only. While another brand would give you  8000hrs plus and then may begin to struggle to take 80% load as the 10,000hr overhaul approaches. After the 10,000 hrs overhaul, this brand may then go another 5000hrs ‘economically’ after which ideally  they should be replaced.  A third brand will still continue running tirelessly taking the rated load for more than 12,000hrs without any sign of an overdue overhaul.

 

Also if the gen set is used in a region where technical expertise for that engine type is not readily available on ground and must be deployed at extra costs for major repairs or overhauls, the typical engine 10,000hrs overhaul could end up costing more that half the cost of a newer model set with advanced features and better fuel consumption.  In this case a second overhaul or major repair would put the set outside its economic life so despite having ‘replicable parts and capability to be put back in service’, such sets would not be economical to run beyond a certain point. Some gen set OEM would encourage customers to buy a new set if it encounters a major breakdown e.g crank shaft damage, damaged crank case etc after 15,000hrs

 

In  Andy’s words, it is quite ‘subjective’ and best to consider all these many ‘issues’ to find a mid point to use in your determination of engine life span.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dele Jagun

Hakman Engineering Limited

Nigeria

 

From: engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com [mailto:engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of BERNARD QUIGG
Sent: 16 August 2010 15:01
To: engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com; energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Cc: engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com; g.shac...@sky.com; localdisperseddecentral...@googlegroups.com; Starrfred; Chris Hodrien; Hugh Sharman; Roger Thorne

Subject: Re: What is the lifetime of an internal combustion engine ie gas (gaseous fuelled) or diesel engine

 

James,

You have the best answer you are likely to have.  However I would point out that running diesel engines continually over 90% rating does reduce the life a lot and for that reason the practical base load rating is not usually the nameplate figure. After a few years hard running a major overhaul is unavoidable and it is usually quite a slow business.It isn't always possible to pre-order all the necessary parts until an engine is stripped.  I was the site agent for consulting engineers for work overhauling a 60MW diesel station.  The machines were derated due to wear before the work and it took some six months to get the work done on fairly new machines.  The reduced availability during this period is likely to be as expensive as the repairs in many practical situations.

Regards

Bernard Quigg

 

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From: dave andrews <tynin...@gmail.com>
To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
Cc: engines-gas-die...@googlegroups.com; g.shac...@sky.com; localdisperseddecentral...@googlegroups.com; Starrfred <star...@yahoo.com>; Chris Hodrien <chod...@blueyonder.co.uk>; Hugh Sharman <sha...@incoteco.com>; Roger Thorne <thor...@dialstart.net>
Sent: Monday, 16 August, 2010 14:01:17
Subject: Re: What is the lifetime of an internal combustion engine ie gas (gaseous fuelled) or diesel engine

James - that should answer your question, but essentially a diesel or a gas engine, of industrial quality such as Jenbacher, Deutz, Caterpiller, Wartsila etc have indefinite lives.

 

As Andy says, most of the wearing parts can be replaced - cylinder heads, turbos, valves, but these are not discarded they are re manufactured - so the cylinder head taken of after 15,000 hours gets new seats, valves and springs, and gets shipped out to a completely different engines next time it needs some heads. The main components of the engine - the block and the crank will never wear out.

 

You can today purchase a 10 - 15 year maintenance contract with the above engine manufactures, and they will undertake to replace all the bits that need replacing over the period, for the princely sum of about 0.8 p/kWh, including unscheduled breakdowns including major failures.

 

The equivalent charge for a coal fired power stations, might be around 0.5 p/kWh  - I invite Chris Hodrien to tell us what the life cycle maintenance cost of a GT is on a similar, all inclusive basis is but I would guess it is around 0.35p/kW.

 

Again Chris will enlighten us no doubt but my understanding is that the hot parts of a GT have to be entirely replaced every 6 years.

 

I hope this answers your questions.

 

Kind Regards

 

Dave Andrews

On 16 August 2010 09:12, Andy Chinnery - Insight Inspection <achi...@insightinspection.co.uk> wrote:

Hi James,

 

This is a very subjective question, but one that gets asked a lot! The best answer is that it’s like ‘Trigger’s Broom’ – ie so long as the handle and head get replaced just before they wear out, it will last forever!

 

There are so many variables that go into maintaining and running a diesel set on continuous load that I really could write pages on the subject.

 

However, so long as a good quality oil is used, and the manufacturer’s O&M instructions are adhered to, then a modern Diesel set will give many years of reliable operation. Most engine lives are determined not by wearing out (as virtually all wearable parts are changeable) but by financial targets and technology improvements. I would estimate that by the time a unit has reached 15 years in age, it will have easily passed all of its financial obligations, but will have been superseded by a model with better fuel consumption, lower emissions, cheaper O&M costs. It is therefore around this age that units (certainly of this size) are changed out for the newer model. It should also be noted that there is also a very active market for the used/older lower tech models in developing countries and so spares are available for many years after this period.

 

So to answer your question, I would look more at the project performance criteria rather than the engine, and us inputs such as the capital costs, O&M cost per kWhr, lube oil & fuel costs etc.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Best regards

 

Andy

 

Andrew Chinnery