FW: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
We have an LNC email ballot. Votes are due to the LNC Business List on this email thread by 11:59 pm Pacific Time on September 13, 2024
Motion: Shall the ruling of the chair be sustained? (A no vote overturns the ruling)
The ruling was that a motion to rescind the JFC due to drastically changed circumstances of RFK openly endorsing Trump and telling everyone to vote for Trump in every state was dilatory
Co-Sponsors: Darr, Harlos, Nanna, Redpath
Vote Threshold Required: Majority of negative
You can track the progress of votes here:
Explanatory notes: Votes on appeals have no relevance on whether one supports the underlying motion. Only whether the rules allow the motion even if one opposes the underlying motion.;
Please advise me of any discrepancies.
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
No
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
By the way my vote is not my debate post as chair has that honor if she chooses it but do e need to choose or waive though we have never rfollowed that in email before that ii can temper.
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Yes.
Adam Haman
Region 1 Rep, Libertarian National Committee
Vice Chair, Libertarian Party of Nevada
From: Pat Ford <pat....@lp.org>
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Yes
From: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Is the Chair going to debate or may others now?
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
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From: Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
No.
Respectfully,
Paul Darr, Region 3 South Representative
Libertarian National Committee
From: Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
I did not receive an answer so I will take my one opportunity. The main motion can be voted down if people do not agree. This is a misuse of a point of order. Regular LNC Parliamentarian Richard Brown weighed in publicly on this, but I could have asked anywhere. I asked him privately and kept that to myself but now that it is public. The basic answer is “we are the majority; you guys should just be quiet.” That is not how parliamentary law works, points of order work, or frankly a functioning board. Of course,
I will repeat Mr. Brown only what he said publicly already:
Writing on FaceBook, Keith Thompson, addressing LNC Parliamentarian Richard Brown, posted (slight reformatting relative to FaceBook):
Richard Brown –in my pretty firm opinion, the motion is not out of order, regardless of whether there have been changed circumstances. But, the fact that circumstances have changed adds credibility to the motion. I’ve already told CAH it is not out of order, but Angela has not asked, and I have not said anything to her. A motion can be renewed (made again) at any future session, regardless of whether there have been changed circumstances. There are no sessions with E-mail ballots, so I think under the bylaws renewing the motion at any time is in order. The bylaws put no limit on the ability of LNC members to submit email motions as long as they have the requisite number of co-sponsors. However, if you want to take the position that it’s not in order unless there have been changed circumstances, I believe that requirement has been met by the changed circumstances, namely, RFK suspending his campaign. He not only suspended his campaign, but has endorsed Trump.
So I think the motion is in order and is not dilatory. See 8:15 and 38:1 in RONR (12th ed).
Voting “yes” just because a voting bloc does (can’t prove that, it certainly looks like that way) is horrid. It has NOT been voted down twice (irrelevant see above but I just wouldn’t do that personally).
One recission before these greatly changed terms was voted on and completely improperly amended against all rules and logic of parliamentary process.
This motion is clearly in order. You can always vote the main motion down but you are not doing anything at all to assurethe membership that the rules matter and desires just want to be rammed through.
Thank you.
PS: “Just go along with the majority when there are off list coordinations and bloc voting without debate is not good board governance and not giving those intricacies to our trainder did her a huge disservice. I know many of you. I know your boards. And I know on your boards this would be (properly) perfectly in order, and I know you know it.
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From: Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 1:55:01 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Assuming discussion is allowed, here's my understanding - feel free to correct:
RONR section 38:1 allows a motion to be moved again if the circumstances have changed. This isn't the same as reconsideration, which would be done in the same meeting by the prevailing side.
The original circumstance was that RFK Jr. was running as a Libertarian, at least in name only, and was helping to "smash the two party system." One could argue that entering into a fundraising agreement with him could be justified as opposition to the Democratic
and Republican Parties and the stranglehold they have over the government.
The new circumstance is that RFK Jr. is voicing his full support for President Trump, claiming that support for him
IS support for Trump. He is no longer running to smash the two-party system, he is running to support them.
If the circumstances have changed, the motion is in order. That is logically a substantive difference, although perhaps not one the prevailing side wishes to acknowledge.
----
Another method is simply moving again the same item in a new session.
The question then being - in email / online voting, when shall we consider a new session to have occurred?
-
Is email one giant session spanning years?
-
Is each thread a new session?
-
Does a session span from one in-person meeting to another?
It seems that we consider a "session" to be "one round of electronic balloting," basically saying that every email vote is its own session. In which case the motion would be in order.
----
I have voiced grave concerns about us entering into a fundraising agreement with Robert "A vote for me is a vote for Trump" Kennedy Jr., but this challenge presents another:
A functional, non-embarrassing board should not abuse points of order or rulings from the Chair to get its way. We should openly debate and argue our case. Votes should be as open and inclusive as possible.
Now, you may all think moving to rescind the JFC is an abusive way to take another bite at the apple, but the consequence there isn't to be ruled out of order simply because you find it annoying. The consequence is that we look like fools to the membership,
we don't get a discord invite to take part in the real discussions, and we get dragged on Twitter.
With Liberty,
Keith Thompson
Region 3 Alternate
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 5:36 AM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 5:36 AM
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From: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>
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Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
If all your (the royal “you” here) actions are predicated on not getting dragged on Twitter, especially when there are two people on this thread who are the main drivers of the Twitter fodder, then being on the LNC is going to be quite an unpleasant
experience.
From: Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 6:55:01 AM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 6:55:01 AM
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From: Adrian Malagon <adrian....@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 7:06:12 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Mr. Thompson is right about one thing: he does certainly look like a fool to the membership.
Adrian F Malagon
Region 4 Alt, Libertarian National Committee
Chair, Libertarian Party of California
From: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 11:57:02 AM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 11:57:02 AM
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Sep 10, 2024, 3:52:57 PMSep 10
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From: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 7:52:46 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Adrian Malagon <adrian....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Dilatory behavior:
“A motion is dilatory if it seeks to obstruct or thwart the will of the assembly as clearly indicated by the existing parliamentary situation.
Parliamentary forms are designed to assist in the transaction of business. Even without adopting a rule on the subject, every deliberative assembly has the right to protect itself from the dilatory use of these forms.”
“It is the duty of the presiding officer to prevent members from misusing the legitimate forms of
motions, or abusing the privilege of renewing certain motions, merely to obstruct business. Whenever the chair becomes convinced that one or more members are repeatedly using parliamentary forms for dilatory purposes, he should either not recognize these members
or he should rule that such motions are out of order".
Moving the same motion over and over again, knowing it will fail and obstruct business, is dilatory.
Angela McArdle
Chair, Libertarian National Committee
From: Adrian Malagon <adrian....@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:06 PM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:06 PM
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From: Jonathan McGee <jonatha...@lp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 2:50:30 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>; Adrian Malagon <adrian....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Jonathan McGee
Region 2 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
Executive Director, Libertarian Party of Alabama
From: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:52 PM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:52 PM
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Sep 11, 2024, 9:59:47 PMSep 11
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From: Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 1:59:33 AM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
I truly wish this would have been a voice meeting and not an email chain, as we discussed not that long ago in Miami, substantial motions should always be done via voice meetings. Trivial matters should be handled via email.
Not only is there little opportunity for debate, but it drags on for days if not weeks. I am not convinced that the current situation is any different than before, given that RFK is still fundraising through the JFC to push policy messages which we have stringent
guidelines in how we participate, to my understanding, we will not be directly involved in supporting Trump through our share of the JFC but push policies that are in line with the Libertarian platform in relation to Kennedy.
I have other questions such as, is the Kennedy campaign using its resources to advertise for Trump through paid services, is the Kennedy team simply continuing its paid information campaign as before, paying off debts, or other end of campaign actions? Again,
there was no room given for debate or to ask questions.
As such, I do believe we have already gone through this, and I was on the losing side. As we discussed already, sometimes we need to let the prevailing side have its way as we move forward as a body, and that's the way the majority of the board wished to move
last time.
Seeing as I do not believe there is a significant difference in the material support we are providing to the campaign at this time, and seeing as there wasn't enough proper discussion to convince me otherwise as this was sprung to a vote.
I will vote Aye to sustain the ruling of the Chair.
I will vote Aye to sustain the ruling of the Chair.
Sincerely,
Steven Nekhaila
From: Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:57 PM
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 2:57 PM
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From: Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 6:42:01 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
I vote No.
Mark Rutherford
Vice Chair
From: Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:59 PM
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 9:59 PM
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From: Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>
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To: Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Yes.
Best,
Robert Vinson, Esq.
From: Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 1:42:01 PM
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 1:42:01 PM
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To: Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Only the Chair remains to vote.
businesslist-forward
Sep 13, 2024, 11:32:34 AMSep 13
to LNC Business List (Public) Google Group
From: Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 3:32:22 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Madame Secretary, I have yet to vote on this appeal and it has taken time to weigh what we've been provided.
I vote 'Yes' to uphold.
Travis L. Bost
LNC At-Large
Travi...@LP.org
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 6:08:14 PM
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2024 6:08:14 PM
businesslist-forward
Sep 13, 2024, 11:59:16 AMSep 13
to LNC Business List (Public) Google Group
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 3:59:02 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>; Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Thank you! I had you down but I'll double check. I won't have coverage again for a while,
From: Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 9:32:22 AM
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 9:32:22 AM
businesslist-forward
Sep 13, 2024, 2:30:31 PMSep 13
to LNC Business List (Public) Google Group
From: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 6:30:15 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>; Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>; Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
I vote yes to uphold my ruling.
Angela McArdle
LNC Chair
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 10:59:02 AM
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 10:59:02 AM
businesslist-forward
Sep 13, 2024, 2:53:11 PMSep 13
to LNC Business List (Public) Google Group
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 6:52:44 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>; Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>; Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
I'll put up a official results s later but obviously passes
From: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 12:30:15 PM
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2024 12:30:15 PM
businesslist-forward
Sep 15, 2024, 3:14:21 PMSep 15
to LNC Business List (Public) Google Group
From: LP Secretary <secr...@lp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2024 7:14:10 PM (UTC+00:00) Monrovia, Reykjavik
To: Angela McArdle <angela....@lp.org>; Travis Bost <travi...@lp.org>; Robert Vinson <robert...@lp.org>; Mark Rutherford <mark.ru...@lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <steven....@lp.org>; Meredith Hays <meredi...@lp.org>; Keith Thompson <keith.t...@lp.org>; Paul Darr <paul...@lp.org>; Bill Redpath <bill.r...@lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin...@lp.org>; LNC Business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>; 4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms <4eb01eb...@amer.teams.ms>; businesslist-forward <businessli...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: EMAIL MOTION 20240606-02 APPEAL
Voting has ended for LNC EMAIL BALLOT 20240906-02 APPEAL
The appeal was SUSTAINED with a vote count OF 12-5-0-0.
Voting Aye: Bost, Dassing, Ford, Garcia, Haman, Hays, McArdle, McGee, Nekhaila, Vinson, Watkins, Yeniscavich
Voting No: Darr, Harlos, Nanna, Redpath, Rutherford
Express Abstentions: None
No Vote Recorded: None
In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos
LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250
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