[llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
- Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
- Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
- See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
- Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
- Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
David Chisnall via llvm-dev
One of the things that came up in our discussion at the WiCT workshop as
a barrier for new members of the community was the fact that key
decisions are often made at round tables at developer meetings without
involvement of the wider community, particularly the large fraction that
is not able to travel to the West Coast. More broadly, the opacity of
the LLVM Project decision making was raised as something that is
problematic when attempting to build a wider and more diverse community.
I therefore find it slightly ironic that this is being announced after a
10-person discussion at an ancillary workshop that was attached to the
main DevMeeting. This seems like a trend in the wrong direction.
While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
requires existing community members to participate to be useful should
be launched without a wider discussion. This paragraph in your
announcement stood out:
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions.
Who are these 'bunch of people'? Why were they selected to make this
decision (and by whom)?
Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though the
'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that I'm unwilling
to agree to and so I won't be participating), only to the process
through which it was set up.
David
On 18/11/2019 07:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> *Short version:
> *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
> to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
> both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
> discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In
> case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so
> it isn't lost.
>
> *Longer version & more details:
> *During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about,
> learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists
> for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling
> and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have
> to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> * Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> * Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
> place, etc.
> o See the plan here:
> https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> * Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
> * Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
> the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but
> also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a
> constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc.
> Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think
> we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of
> the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes
> a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this
> also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge
> thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping
> drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting
> these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her
> help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
David Zarzycki via llvm-dev
> On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:48 AM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
When will the project decide to shutdown one or the other? What will the criteria be?
Nico Weber via llvm-dev
Hello folks,I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.The archive link for reference is here:
_______________________________________________
cfe-dev mailing list
cfe...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
Ryan Taylor via llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
| mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers
Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a *mechanism* being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
--paulr
Christopher Degawa via llvm-dev
| mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers
Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a *mechanism* being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
--paulr
A few benefit of using Discord or other new mechanisms that I prefer to have over just emailing list are code formatting, being able to group people together (devs of x, list moderators, etc), and the ability to casually talk about stuff other than just meta or code related issues. Being able to communicate with other developers casually helps reinforce that the other devs are also human and not just a bunch of coders behind a computer screen that might judge you for every word you might say.
_______________________________________________
Sam McCall via llvm-dev
| mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers
Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a *mechanism* being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
--paulr
Joan Lluch via llvm-dev
Denis Antrushin via llvm-dev
On 18.11.2019 16:48, Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev wrote:
> | mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers
>
> Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple avenues of communication, it’s **really** hard to imagine email as a **mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
>
> --paulr
+1 here.
mailing lists and phabricator are lasts things on my "new contributor's barrier" list
>
> *From:* llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> *On Behalf Of *Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> *Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 2:48 AM
> *To:* llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org>
> *Subject:* [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> *Short version:
> *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> *Longer version & more details:
> *During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> * Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> * Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> o See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
> * Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
> * Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
>
>
Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev
<cfe...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).
The Discord's ToS, lack of open-source clients (if you can even call
the situation like that,
feels like ICQ/Skype all over again), centralization, etc; are pretty
'major' regressions.
As a general, not really LLVM-specific remark,
I find it worrying that the noble goal of usability improvement/entry
barrier lowering is being applied with only said endgoal in mind
and no real assessment of the approach taken, the effect produced
by such approach and the cost it incurs on the existing
ecosystem/community/etc.
But this is very much the norm in nowadays world :/
Roman.
Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would
have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open
protocol and many clients and open source server implementations,
Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a
concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a
concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new,
which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy
to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where
something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable
client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features
related to software project development, with Discord being far more
than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed
under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev
It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/ Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that rarely happened.
Also the general chats were kinda silent...
Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well, but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if the subject is of interest for me or not...
Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
To: Chandler Carruth <chan...@gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
Hi Christopher,
Yes, email takes longer to put together. I find this a good thing. It forces me to think harder about what I’m saying, and even in the course of re-drafting this message I have changed my mind several times. There’s no value to putting you through my internal debates. Anything that encourages more thoughtfulness of posts is a good thing.
“Editing of sent messages” sounds like a path to Orwellian revisionism and not a healthy thing. (The last time I did it was when my Slack client unexpectedly seized focus and posted part of my password.) Why is this better than thinking more carefully about what to say in the first place? In a chat-like forum the give-and-take lets me fix things without rewriting history. In email I’m more careful but I can still correct myself as needed.
I also don’t like communicating with selected sub-groups because it fragments communication and history. A number of times, people have contacted me privately, and in many cases it isn’t genuinely private so I redirect the conversation to the lists. I *want* to see what’s going on all over the project, because I have no idea what might be relevant to my work. As it happens I am a long-time member of what we jokingly refer to as the “debug-info cabal” but we don’t have private discussions that exclude everyone else. That’s bad for the health of the community.
This is different from having a web forum with sub-forums identified by broad topic, which are still open to everyone; that’s a reasonable way to organize things.
Regarding people judging what you say… In a technical forum, the work product should be what matters, and I’ve found addressing comments to the work product rather than the person makes a huge difference. (FTR it took me two tries to rewrite this post that way. I hope the result is essentially non-judgmental.)
--paulr
Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev
I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
working well.
Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
new users would see these days?
Neil Henning via llvm-dev
| |
Neil Henning | |
Senior Software Engineer Compiler | |
Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of David
> Chisnall via llvm-dev
> ...
> While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
> reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
> requires existing community members to participate to be useful should
> be launched without a wider discussion. This paragraph in your
> announcement stood out:
>
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> > longer-form discussions.
>
> Who are these 'bunch of people'? Why were they selected to make this
> decision (and by whom)?
If this is supposed to be a community-driven thing, I agree with David.
This thread is titled as an RFC but it's presented as a fait-accompli.
--paulr
Andrzej Warzynski via llvm-dev
I was among the participants during WiC together with Meike. My overall
impression was that there's a lot of LLVM developers out there (or
people using LLVM) who do not visit or use the mailing list. As a
result, we probably don't realise how big the group actually is.
I feel that by providing other platforms for communication and knowledge
exchange we are basically catching up with were our community already is.
-Andrzej
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
> try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is
> one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more
> effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over
> the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email
> providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows
> available and I think we should seriously consider moving to
> Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
> for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways
> around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges
> this has posed to people less established in the community was a
> real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really
> appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
> long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the
> WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me
> and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
> wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
Ryan Taylor via llvm-dev
Finkel, Hal J. via llvm-dev
> Regarding process...
>
>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of David
>> Chisnall via llvm-dev
>> ...
>> While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
>> reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
>> requires existing community members to participate to be useful should
>> be launched without a wider discussion. This paragraph in your
>> announcement stood out:
>>
>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
>> > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> > longer-form discussions.
>>
>> Who are these 'bunch of people'? Why were they selected to make this
>> decision (and by whom)?
> If this is an LLVM Foundation fiat, we know who the self-selected set are.
>
> If this is supposed to be a community-driven thing, I agree with David.
> This thread is titled as an RFC but it's presented as a fait-accompli.
the services were configured so that we all might try them out, and are
encouraged to do so. I, for one, have not used either one previously, so
I think that will be helpful for me in forming an opinion on them. One
thing, however, that is important to me is that Discourse has email
integration:
https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279
and I'll want to see how well this really works.
-Hal
> --paulr
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Hal Finkel
Lead, Compiler Technology and Programming Languages
Leadership Computing Facility
Argonne National Laboratory
Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev
>
>
>
> Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a *mechanism* being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
FWIW, I agree with Paul.
I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was
intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.
I am very unclear as to what problem this Discourse thing is supposed
to solve. Being welcoming, or off-putting, has nothing to do with the
form of the communications medium IMO. It has much more to do with the
contents and style of the communication.
--
Stefan Teleman
stefan....@gmail.com
Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
The few non-computer forums I've used are all self-hosted, which
is not always a good thing (one is very creaky indeed) but they
survive vendors disappearing, as web companies are prone to do.
--paulr
Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
> On Nov 18, 2019, at 6:18 AM, Sam McCall via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> (A weak +1 to the concern about this change being made by some people in a conference room somewhere - if that's the decision-making process that's fine with me, but it'd be great to know that and have a defined way to get issues on the agenda)
To make this 100% clear, this proposal came out of the Women in Compilers and Tools Workshop and the LLVM Developers’ Meeting round tables. I feel both are valid places to have discussions and to then present something to the community for a larger discussion. Not everyone can attend a developer meeting, but it is a great place to start discussions and one of the main goals of the meeting.
Thanks,
Tanya
David Chisnall via llvm-dev
> I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was
> intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.
Subscribing to a mailing list, particularly one as high-traffic as
LLVM-Dev, is a high friction activity. I was contributing to LLVM for
several years before I subscribed to llvm-dev, because I didn't want to
deal with the traffic volume (filtering is a lot better now, but having
to set up a mail filter adds another step for subscribing). The only
open source projects that I interact with via mailing lists are ones
where I am already an contributor.
IRC isn't great, but the web UI makes it a bit better. In particular,
it is very low friction: no creating an account, no need to have a
password, just enter a one-shot username and log in. It has two problems:
1. The web UI quickly fills up with control messages. I don't care when
people have logged on and off most of the time, especially if they were
idle for 2 hours before they went away.
2. It has no persistence, so you can't ask a question, go away, and come
back to find the answer.
David
Alex Brachet-Mialot via llvm-dev
Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On 18/11/2019 16:39, Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev wrote:
> > I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was
> > intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.
>
> Subscribing to a mailing list, particularly one as high-traffic as
> LLVM-Dev, is a high friction activity. I was contributing to LLVM for
> several years before I subscribed to llvm-dev, because I didn't want to
> deal with the traffic volume (filtering is a lot better now, but having
> to set up a mail filter adds another step for subscribing). The only
> open source projects that I interact with via mailing lists are ones
> where I am already an contributor.
In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to
the verbosity of the mailing list.
llvm-dev is very verbose. I.e. high "friction" coefficient. So are
cfe-dev and llvm-commits. O-Well. That's how they are.
I don't quite see how some sort of pretty Web UI will reduce the
friction coefficient. It might introduce a new, "annoyance"
coefficient, because of the added noise of pretty formatting, emojis,
color quoting, and all kinds of other extraneous - and unnecessary -
decorations that have very little to do with the information being
conveyed.
--
Stefan Teleman
stefan....@gmail.com
David Chisnall via llvm-dev
> In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to
> the verbosity of the mailing list.
No, that is not what I said. To get a one-off question answered on a
mailing list, I have to:
0. Find the correct mailing list, which is not right next to the code.
1. Sign up.
2. Set up a filter for the mail that I don't care about.
3. Go and find the responses (hopefully my mail client does a good job
of threading discussions - that varies a lot and most mobile ones are
pretty bad)
4. Unsubscribe once my question is answered.
How many mailing lists are you subscribed to? How many open source
libraries do you use in day-to-day development? For me, at least, the
first is <10% of the second and I don't think I'm particularly
unrepresentative there.
Compare this to a similar flow with something like GitHub issues. I
already have a GitHub account and it isn't tied to a single project. If
a project encourages questions via their issues tracker (a lot do, and
have a 'question' tag for them, so they build up a body of questions
that are easy to search), then I just write the question with no login
and get a notification via email or one of a handful of other mechanims
if anyone replies.
The second of these is a far lower investment of my time, but if that
interaction goes well then it's the kind of thing that helps build a
longer-term relationship with a project. I don't know if Discord or
GitHub issues are the correct things, but I'd recommend at least the
following requirements:
- An easily searchable archive of past questions, ideally integrated
with the UI for asking questions so that people asking a question get
prompted with prior responses.
- No requirement to create an account, or at least the ability to log
in with an account that most people already have (e.g. a GitHub account).
- An embedded notification mechanism if it takes a while for a
response (e.g. emails for when threads that you're watching are notified).
David
Rob Conde via llvm-dev
- I think there's a psychological difference of a mailing list vs. slack/discord. Slack/discord maybe feels like being in a group of your friends and asking a casual question.
A mailing list feels like being in a class and raising your hand to interrupt for a question.
- An email is going to go to everyone on the list. The slack/discord message is only going to go to who is in the channel at the moment (not technically...but usually I don't read the history of everything I missed when not in a channel).
- It's a positive for a mailing list that you spend the time thinking about what you're going to say as mentioned before...but it also adds a burden for the poster. Some peoples
learning style is to talk-it-through, and because the expectation for a mailing list is that you're going to put a lot of thought into your question, it discourages that.
- Having a (more or less) immediate back-and-forth on a slack/discord type medium has an entirely different "vibe" than a mailing list.
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:04 PM
To: LLVM Dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Hello everyone,
Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
- Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
- Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
- See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
- Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
- Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as well for new people.
Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On 18/11/2019 17:04, Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev wrote:
> > In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to
> > the verbosity of the mailing list.
>
>
> No, that is not what I said. To get a one-off question answered on a
> mailing list, I have to:
>
> 0. Find the correct mailing list, which is not right next to the code.
> 1. Sign up.
> 2. Set up a filter for the mail that I don't care about.
> 3. Go and find the responses (hopefully my mail client does a good job
> of threading discussions - that varies a lot and most mobile ones are
> pretty bad)
> 4. Unsubscribe once my question is answered.
With a great-working mailing list, it could just be
1. Find the right list
2. Send email to it
3. Receive responses by email.
I guess it doesn't work like that today, but for me this would be the ideal.
Jonathan Anderson via llvm-dev
[…] I don't know if Discord or GitHub issues are the correct things, but I'd recommend at least the following requirements:
- An easily searchable archive of past questions, ideally integrated with the UI for asking questions so that people asking a question get prompted with prior responses.
- No requirement to create an account, or at least the ability to log in with an account that most people already have (e.g. a GitHub account).
- An embedded notification mechanism if it takes a while for a response (e.g. emails for when threads that you're watching are notified).
Assistant Professor
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Memorial University
http://www.engr.mun.ca/~anderson
Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On 18/11/2019 17:04, Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev wrote:
> > In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to
> > the verbosity of the mailing list.
>
>
> No, that is not what I said. To get a one-off question answered on a
> mailing list, I have to:
>
> 0. Find the correct mailing list, which is not right next to the code.
> 1. Sign up.
> 2. Set up a filter for the mail that I don't care about.
> 3. Go and find the responses (hopefully my mail client does a good job
> of threading discussions - that varies a lot and most mobile ones are
> pretty bad)
> 4. Unsubscribe once my question is answered.
Hmmmm. Really?
So, every time you want to ask a question on llvm-dev or cfe-dev, you:
0. Find the appropriate mailing list.
1. Sign up for it.
2. Wait for the subscription confirmation email.
3. Set up a filter.
4. Search for existing answers to your question.
5. If [4] not found, ask your question.
6. Unsubscribe from the mailing list.
Really?
You are a pretty active contributor to llvm-dev and I find it
difficult to believe that, every single time you posted something to
llvm-dev, you went through this entire
subscribe-search-post-unsubscribe ritual described above.
I can tell you that I don't do that. I am subscribed to llvm-dev and
cfe-dev -- insofar as LLVM is concerned.
Yes, these mailing lists are verbose. Yes, at any given point in time,
a majority of the questions or answers posted on these lists aren't
directly related to my LLVM or clang interests of the moment. So,
those posts that aren't interesting to me, I delete them. The ones
that are interesting to me, I flag them with different labels in
GMail. Twice a year I do a bulk delete of all the emails from either
of these mailing lists based on a "before" filter.
Yes, it's work. It's work that I signed up for when I subscribed to
these mailing lists. I don't find it particularly onerous or
exhausting.
--
Stefan Teleman
stefan....@gmail.com
David Truby via llvm-dev
> On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 08:09 -0500, Nico Weber via llvm-dev wrote:FWIW
> Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell
> (?).
all? It's an open standard protocol with a number of open source
clients that behaves very similarly to Slack/Discord. A number of other
open source communities I follow are using this already.
David Truby
Christopher Degawa via llvm-dev
“Editing of sent messages” sounds like a path to Orwellian revisionism and not a healthy thing
Christopher Degawa via llvm-dev
Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
new users would see these days?
Sam Kerner via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Are there any existing open source projects that use these systems?
Do they use them as a substitute for the mailing list, or as a
supplement for people who wish to avoid email?
Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
Regarding process...
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of David
> Chisnall via llvm-dev
> ...
> While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
> reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
> requires existing community members to participate to be useful should
> be launched without a wider discussion. This paragraph in your
> announcement stood out:
>
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> > longer-form discussions.
>
> Who are these 'bunch of people'? Why were they selected to make this
> decision (and by whom)?
If this is an LLVM Foundation fiat, we know who the self-selected set are.
If this is supposed to be a community-driven thing, I agree with David.
This thread is titled as an RFC but it's presented as a fait-accompli.
Christopher Degawa via llvm-dev
For example, with Discord there is no easy way to link directly to a particular post. Search is also worse, and there is less availability of useful plugins such as inserting code snippets, etc. Discord also doesn't do threading, which is a very useful feature that makes communication easier.
Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev
Some thoughts:
- I think there's a psychological difference of a mailing list vs. slack/discord. Slack/discord maybe feels like being in a group of your friends and asking a casual question. A mailing list feels like being in a class and raising your hand to interrupt for a question.
- An email is going to go to everyone on the list. The slack/discord message is only going to go to who is in the channel at the moment (not technically...but usually I don't read the history of everything I missed when not in a channel).
- It's a positive for a mailing list that you spend the time thinking about what you're going to say as mentioned before...but it also adds a burden for the poster. Some peoples learning style is to talk-it-through, and because the expectation for a mailing list is that you're going to put a lot of thought into your question, it discourages that.
- Having a (more or less) immediate back-and-forth on a slack/discord type medium has an entirely different "vibe" than a mailing list.
Philip Reames via llvm-dev
The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as well for new people.
I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
I definitely remember this fear from when I was just getting
started. By now, I've made a fool of myself publicly enough times
to not worry about it any more, but initially, this was really
intimidating.
I do hear a lot of discussion in person and see some email that
doesn't show up on lists specifically because of the public record
aspect. I don't know that the current tools proposal address
this, but a specifically transitive channel which *isn't* archived
might be worth thinking about.
Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
> Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though the
> 'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that I'm unwilling
> to agree to and so I won't be participating),
Yeah... "We're calling it Your Content but we (Discord) get to do whatever
we want with it and you can't complain" doesn't sound appealing.
I was never on IRC so I probably don't care so much about Discord, and
even less so after reading their terms.
--paulr
Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 2:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Are there any existing open source projects that use these systems?
Do they use them as a substitute for the mailing list, or as a
supplement for people who wish to avoid email?
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Jean-Daniel via llvm-dev
David Tellenbach via llvm-dev
On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
- Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
- Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
- See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
- Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
- Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev
Hi all,+1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct" communication channels suchas Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool here) forinformal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is includes userquestions but also questions that can be easily answered using communityknowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option abc" or"How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong opinion onproviding additional possibilities to interact with it, such as mirrored forumsetc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely informedabout any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Manuel Jacob via llvm-dev
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 2:49 PM Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev <
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> | mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar,
>> difficult,
>>
>>
>>
>> Um… what? While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
>> as a **mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating. Moving to
>> new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of
>> strangers
>> participating, which to my mind would be the
>> unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
>>
>> --paulr
>>
> - unclear how to reply to a mail that was sent before you subscribed
> to
> the ML (obvious newbie problem - generally I'd lurk on the web until I
> wanted to reply)
> - unclear how to create a partitioned space (new mailing list) for a
> topic
> - subscription state/bounce messages/moderation are all IMO unclear if
> you
> haven't used mailman before
I think that these are mostly problems with Mailman. Some services
(e.g. Sourcehut, see https://lists.sr.ht/) show a "Reply to" button that
includes the correct In-Reply-To header and subject. Sourcehut also
makes creating lists very easy.
> - the volume of traffic on (effectively-mandatory) lists is so high
> that
> it requires using mail filters, most people don't use those
>
>
> (A weak +1 to the concern about this change being made by some people
> in a
> conference room somewhere - if that's the decision-making process
> that's
> fine with me, but it'd be great to know that and have a defined way to
> get
> issues on the agenda)
James Y Knight via llvm-dev
There's also mailman 3 which allows you to post from the list-archive's website. (I personally find browsing a mailman 3 list archive completely maddening compared to mailman 2's pipermail archives -- something about the thread layout just makes my eyes glaze over. But I guess some people like it, and it does allow posting.)
For an example, you can see: <https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/>. Note that by default it's only showing you 10 of the lists, because I guess pagination is supposed to be helpful. A good example list might be <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pytho...@python.org/>.
Dan Liew via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially
> if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
> label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would
> have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open
> protocol and many clients and open source server implementations,
> Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a
> concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a
> concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
> entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new,
> which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy
> to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect,
I think "easy" is very subjective here. It is "easy" if you already
* Know how to use Tmux (or screen).
* Have an always up server that you can have your IRC client running on.
* Are familiar with IRC.
I think it would be incorrect to assume that every person interested
in hacking on LLVM is willing (or knows how to) set this up.
> as opposed to Discord where
> something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable
> client
Is there anything wrong with asking people to use Discord via a web
browser? To do many things these days you **need a web browser**. If I
compare the easy of use of using a web browser vs your proposed IRC
set up, the web browser wins, hands down.
There may be a more comfortable middle ground here if there is strong
community resistance to using a service like Discord. There are web
browser IRC clients that might be considered "good enough" that the
barrier to entry is low enough if we clearly document how newcomers
can use it to get started in the community.
Personally I've not used Discord much but I am going to try it for a
few weeks to see how it goes.
Dan.
Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev
Discourse archives are not searchable on the web.
Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
protocol, there are many user friendly alternatives including web IRC
clients. The key point is flexibility, since with IRC it's possible to
pick a flow that suits your needs, especially if you're a heavy IRC
user (I'll admit, I'm slightly biased towards IRC). Due to its long
history, there's great flexibility that comes with regards to client
choices and use patterns. Discord, officially, only provides one which
is their web client (either in-browser or shipped on the Electron
platform) and no interoperability options, meaning that it will
require additional fragmentation and an additional client to pay
attention to.
It's very rich in features, which can be seen as a nice thing in
social chatrooms, but otherwise serve as a distraction in a more topic
oriented environment. It is a social platform to a large degree, which
may seem like a negative thing to people seeking to distance
themselves from complex social platforms/networks. And last but not
least, it's a very poor platform for personal messaging, given their
terms of service and privacy policy, I would have concerns discussing
anything remotely sensitive on that platform.
A lot of this ultimately comes back to the hostile attitudes towards
3rd party clients - inability to integrate it into an aggregate client
and limitations in terms of accessibility, with lack of customization
or opt outs out of a lot of features. And while they do not actively
seek out users of 3rd party clients and enforce that policy, there is
no saying that won't happen in the future. So there's little room for
compromise, the platform is very much "take it as-is or leave it".
Of course my view is very subjective, and I understand the desire to
seek out alternatives that are more user friendly, but I think
platforms like that offer no compromises (or are hostile towards such
compromises) are very far from ideal as they may inevitably leave
people behind.
I hope this explains my view better and I apologize for my it being
heavily polarized against Discord.
Matthew Hodgson via llvm-dev
> Hi all,
>
>> On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 08:09 -0500, Nico Weber via llvm-dev wrote:FWIW
>> I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects.
>> Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell
>> (?).
>
> As regards this, I wonder if Matrix (matrix.org) has been considered at
> all? It's an open standard protocol with a number of open source
> clients that behaves very similarly to Slack/Discord. A number of other
> open source communities I follow are using this already.
[ Disclaimer: I'm the project lead for Matrix.org, so am hardly
impartial on this. (That said, we keep up with LLVM given we lean on it
hard via emscripten when compiling our end-to-end encryption
implementation (https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm) down to WASM
and JS, so I have some tenuous claim to be lurking here ;) ]
We built Matrix to be an entirely open network and open standard chat
protocol, with the intention of combining the good bits of IRC (the
community; the openness; the standardisation; the relative ease of dev;
open source servers & clients) with clients which provide an accessible
UX of similar quality to Discord/Slack. Riot.im is the most advanced
client, and while it's still not quite as glossy as Discord, the gap is
closing, and we're moving faster than they are.
I get why some open source projects (e.g. bits of Rust) have moved to
Discord out of pragmatism for having the smoothest possible UX to ensure
the widest audience, but it comes at a cost. The main tradeoffs are:
* As others have pointed out, Discord's monetisation model is that
they own your data. In Matrix, all participating servers share
responsibility for conversations, and users can pick whichever server
they happen to trust. The ones we run as Matrix.org have these policies
(https://github.com/vector-im/policies/tree/master/docs/matrix-org), but
you can use whichever you like. Additionally, Matrix is managed by the
non-profit Matrix.org Foundation (https://matrix.org/foundation), to
protect the protocol's users from conflicting commercial interests.
* Discord locks you into a proprietary service. It's the chat
equivalent of using MSVC Express just because it happens to be free and
glossy. Discord explicitly forbids 3rd party clients and bridging, and
you're not exactly going to have the freedom to tweak and extend the
server - which is after all what open source is all about. In contrast,
https://matrix.org/docs/spec is the Spec we publish that forms the core
of the Matrix protocol, and
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ is an overview of all
the implementations (servers, clients, bots, bridges etc) of it.
* Discord traps you in a proprietary silo. You can talk to anyone you
like... as long as they're on Discord. If you want to collaborate
directly with other projects on IRC, Slack, XMPP or wherever you're
screwed. Matrix provides increasingly decent bridges to IRC, Discord,
Slack, etc so even if folks aren't natively on Matrix, you can talk to
them anyway. (And if LLVM does end up on Discord, we'll go ahead and
bridge the Discord channels into Matrix anyway :P)
* You don't have any end-to-end encryption. If you ever found
yourself discussing something sensitive (e.g. security vuln
coordination) and don't want eavesdroppers in or around the server from
following along, you're out of luck. Matrix however implements
Signal-style Double Ratchet as required.
I could go on, but I think the best datapoint I can think of is
Mozilla's recent trial where they stood up Matrix/Riot, Slack,
MatterMost & Rocket.chat side by side for a month-long comparison.
(Discord was dismissed out of hand due to their dubious privacy
policies). They haven't announced the final winner yet, but you a
sample of the feedback they gathered can be found at
https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-trial-servers-feedback/44871.
And empirically, by the end of the trial, almost all the community
chatter was happening on Matrix rather than the other instances, which
were a bit dead (at least in the public channels). It also spurred a
*lot* of development - for instance, we went from having some of the
worst accessibility to being one of the best, c.f.
https://toot.cafe/@marcozehe/102998816933348357.
TL;DR: please don't pick a chat solution based purely on its current
shininess and UX. The FOSS options are evolving very rapidly (much more
so than the Slacks & Discords), but we will only be able to grow if
we're given the opportunity, rather than being dismissed due to being
FOSS or "not mainstream" - much like LLVM in the early days needed
champions to spur forward development.
Matthew
P.S. and even if some of Rust are lost on Discord, others ended up on
Matrix, c.f.
https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/357#issuecomment-504793602
--
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org
Stephen Crane via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
First, I wanted to echo what Ryan and others have mentioned. I've been
subscribed to llvm-dev for ~8 years, and have posted a handful of
times, primarily because of similar fears and not wanting to bother
the whole list for something that is small (or at least might be). I
don't want to add to the flood of email that I myself have no hope of
keeping up with. I used to chat a bit more on IRC, but when I had
questions there would rarely be someone willing to help. Lately I'm
rarely on IRC either.
> How are the new tools going to help this problem?
A real-time communication channel is only as good as the number of
participants. IRC is dying and getting new folks into IRC is not
really going to happen. I personally loved IRC, but I'm just not there
much anymore as most discussions I care about have moved on. Discord
(or other similar alternatives) have channels so I don't have to
follow every topic, just the ones I care about. Simply put, I strongly
support some modern, real-time communication server, whether or not
that's Discord (I understand the issues with ToS that people have, and
while I don't personally care, I sympathize).
Discourse also seems like it would reduce friction for newcomers. I
think most would view it as a pull model rather than a push model, and
so feel significantly more comfortable posting a message or starting a
new topic, as you're not pushing a message into people's inbox. As
others have elaborated on, the friction and investment to post a quick
question as a newcomer is much lower, so it would undoubtedly attract
a larger and more vibrant community.
All said, I'm someone who has worked on LLVM code downstream for 8
years, attended the dev summit, and based most of my PhD work on LLVM,
I never have felt like a member of the community. I think the
directions the project is going re: Github, and potentially
modernizing comms is great and will definitely encourage me and others
like me to participate more.
- stephen
Chris Bieneman via llvm-dev
On Nov 18, 2019, at 1:48 AM, David Chisnall via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:Hi Chandler,
One of the things that came up in our discussion at the WiCT workshop as a barrier for new members of the community was the fact that key decisions are often made at round tables at developer meetings without involvement of the wider community, particularly the large fraction that is not able to travel to the West Coast. More broadly, the opacity of the LLVM Project decision making was raised as something that is problematic when attempting to build a wider and more diverse community.
I therefore find it slightly ironic that this is being announced after a 10-person discussion at an ancillary workshop that was attached to the main DevMeeting. This seems like a trend in the wrong direction.
While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that requires existing community members to participate to be useful should be launched without a wider discussion. This paragraph in your announcement stood out:
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions.
Who are these 'bunch of people'? Why were they selected to make this decision (and by whom)?
Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though the 'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that I'm unwilling to agree to and so I won't be participating), only to the process through which it was set up.
David
On 18/11/2019 07:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:Hello everyone,
*Short version:
*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
*Longer version & more details:
*During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
* Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
* Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
place, etc.
o See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
* Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
* Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
But IRC itself (from the client perspective) is a very simple
protocol, there are many user friendly alternatives including web IRC
clients. The key point is flexibility, since with IRC it's possible to
pick a flow that suits your needs, especially if you're a heavy IRC
user (I'll admit, I'm slightly biased towards IRC). Due to its long
history, there's great flexibility that comes with regards to client
choices and use patterns. Discord, officially, only provides one which
is their web client (either in-browser or shipped on the Electron
platform) and no interoperability options, meaning that it will
require additional fragmentation and an additional client to pay
attention to.
Matt Arsenault via llvm-dev
On Nov 18, 2019, at 13:18, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry.
Chris Lattner via llvm-dev
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 12:43 PM Zachary Turner <ztu...@roblox.com> wrote:Discourse archives are not searchable on the web.Just to clear up any confusion with Discord here because the names are close: Discourse is totally unrelated to Discord, it is open-sourcehttps://github.com/discourse/discourse and does not share (I believe) the same questions about terms of uses etc. with Discord.
Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev
From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchap...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Hey :/
It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/ Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that rarely happened.
Also the general chats were kinda silent...
Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well, but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if the subject is of interest for me or not...
Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
To: Chandler Carruth <chan...@gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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Jonathan Goodwin via llvm-dev
Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev
As Mehdi mentioned in his email, Discourse archives are searchable via Google.
I think we should definitely talk about replacing llvm-dev (and other development discussion lists). The contents of email lists for commits and bugs are in large part automatically generated, and I’m not sure if there would be much value in switching those (aside from any technical complications).
I’m much in favor of using a web-based forum (such as Discourse) for the mailing lists that are used for discussions, and here are some reasons:
- Browsing mailing list archives is not user-friendly. It’s possible, but if we’re trying to be accommodating to new users, this is not the way to go. A web forum is, by design, much friendlier.
- When you subscribe to a mailing list, you only get emails from the time you subscribed. To see prior discussions, you need to browse the archives. Web forums do not have this issue.
- When you subscribe to a mailing list, you get lots of emails. Lots. Sorting it out falls on the email client.
- Most email clients fail at at least one critical task, and each one of them does something differently from all others. The result is a mixture of quoting style, top-posting, bottom-posting, HTML, plain text and whatnot.
--
Krzysztof Parzyszek kpar...@quicinc.com AI tools development
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Christof Douma via llvm-dev
Hi Chandler and Meike.
Great that you look into lower barriers for new (and existing) members, thanks!
To add what Chris brought up, besides the licensing of what we say on the platform, there is another aspect of T&C that should be considered. Discord’s T&C allows only non-commercial use, unless they’ve given a written approval. I’m curious if that is going to hinder the adoption of Discord for people that are employed by for-profit organizations. I’m not a lawyer, so I’ve no clue how much of a problem this is in reality.
Discourse seems more friendly towards user of for-profit organizations and it’s T&C are less aggressive than Discord. It also allows people to keep using email if they prefer. Sounds less contentious. I’ve not looked in detail, but I’ll probably happy to use that instead of mailing lists.
Christof
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev...@lists.llvm.org>
On Behalf Of Chris Bieneman via llvm-dev
Sent: 19 November 2019 02:01
To: David Chisnall <David.C...@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Cc: llvm...@lists.llvm.org
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
David,
Rob Conde via llvm-dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:09 AM
To: Daniel Chapiesky <dchap...@gmail.com>
Cc: llvm...@lists.llvm.org <llvm...@lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Finkel, Hal J. via llvm-dev
Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems. Not sure why that keeps being overlooked
My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.
-Hal
-- Hal Finkel Lead, Compiler Technology and Programming Languages Leadership Computing Facility Argonne National Laboratory
David Greene via llvm-dev
> To add what Chris brought up, besides the licensing of what we say on
> the platform, there is another aspect of T&C that should be
> considered. Discord's T&C allows only non-commercial use, unless
> they've given a written approval. I'm curious if that is going to
> hinder the adoption of Discord for people that are employed by
> for-profit organizations. I'm not a lawyer, so I've no clue how much
> of a problem this is in reality.
Both the non-commercial use restrictions and Discord's T&C would be
non-starters for us. Matrix/Riot seems like a promising solution.
I am fully in favor of moving to Discourse as long as we have an e-mail
bridge, which in my understanding is easy to do. Just getting
conversations broken out into sub-topics alone would be a huge increase
in usability. It would be great if we could do the same for the commits
lists. Creating multiple Mailman lists for each subtopic is
sub-optimal. A central go-to place for all topics is essential.
-David
Scott Michel via llvm-dev
Hello everyone,
Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
- Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
- Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
- Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
- Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
Perry-Holby, Alexis via llvm-dev
+1 for StackOverflow... Personally, I would LOVE to be able to find LLVM-related Q&A on that platform.
-- Alexis Perry-Holby
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:42 AM
To: llvm-dev
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Matthew Hodgson via llvm-dev
Slack's community moderation features are pretty terrible - it's simply not set up for managing public-facing communities; it's set up for managing private workplace team collaboration. The best way to try to explain the features which are missing are to look at something like the Matrix moderation guide (https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation/); many of these features are missing in Slack.
I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on role-based permissions, but it would be good to get an official answer. Slack definitely does have administrators, and Administrators can kick people out of the slack, which... might be sufficient? I don't know . From a usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior to Slack so I think it's worth doing this comparison
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfi...@anl.gov> wrote:
On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems. Not sure why that keeps being overlooked
My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.
-Hal
-- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> If this is an LLVM Foundation fiat, we know who the self-selected set are.
>
> If this is supposed to be a community-driven thing, I agree with David.
> This thread is titled as an RFC but it's presented as a fait-accompli.
> --paulr
+1 to both Paul and David.
I have no idea what those tools are and I'm not signing privacy policy
on proprietary tools to keep in touch with the LLVM community.
If you can connect other tools to IRC/email so I can keep using those,
fine. If you want to replace them, then I'll have no choice but to
stop participating.
--renato
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
Removing users, rooms and content - Slack Admins can do this
Banning clients by IP - We probably don't want to do this anyway as it could cause an entire organization to be banned
Blocking users - This one seems valid, Discord does allow you to do this and so does IRC. I actually don't know if Slack does.
_______________________________________________
Tim Northover via llvm-dev
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 18:30, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Redactions (Removing Messages) - We can't do that with IRC either
IRC is completely ephemeral though (barring people's personal logs),
which is one of the things that both proposed alternatives seem to
change. Slack appears to allow moderators to remove messages.
Cheers.
Tim.
Matthew Hodgson via llvm-dev
In our experience, the fact that IRC is niche and relatively
inaccessible and lo-fi means that it's much less likely to suffer
abuse; it's effectively security through obscurity. However, if
you want to expand your community to be more accessible and
inclusive, then by definition you make it easier for bad actors to
enter and participate as well as constructive participants. Throw
in richer content such as images, videos, avatars, file transfer,
large messages, etc and sadly you find yourself needing better
moderation tools. ymmv of course.
-- Matthew Hodgson Matrix.org
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
James Henderson via llvm-dev
Hello everyone,
Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
- Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
- Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
- Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
- Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
-Chandler
Whisperity via llvm-dev
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:10 PM Nico Weber via cfe-dev
<cfe...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).
+1. I don't believe this decision was well thought-through.
The Discord's ToS, lack of open-source clients (if you can even call
the situation like that,
feels like ICQ/Skype all over again), centralization, etc; are pretty
'major' regressions.
As a general, not really LLVM-specific remark,
I find it worrying that the noble goal of usability improvement/entry
barrier lowering is being applied with only said endgoal in mind
and no real assessment of the approach taken, the effect produced
by such approach and the cost it incurs on the existing
ecosystem/community/etc.
But this is very much the norm in nowadays world :/
Roman.
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <cfe...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.
>>
>> The archive link for reference is here:
>> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <chan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Short version:
>>> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>
>>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>>>
>>> Longer version & more details:
>>> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>
>>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>>
>>> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>>>
>>> See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>>
>>> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>
>>>
>>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>>
>>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>>>
>>> -Chandler
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cfe-dev mailing list
>> cfe...@lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> cfe-dev mailing list
> cfe...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
_______________________________________________
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cfe...@lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed" by
OSS tooling.
> The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any of those tools at hand.
That doesn't sound good.
Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a "gaming
chat app" will rarely be.
I'd have to subvert the private license *and* my company's security
policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
on corporate networks.
IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
people without alienating old people, like me.
Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
reasonable (or we get tired of it).
This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
every tool we use.
--renato
Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev
All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.
If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
alternative there.
> --renato
Roman
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
> If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
> alternative there.
Wow. This thing looks awesome!
Interoperability (irc, email, slack, XMPP, even discord), federation,
open standard, OSS reference implementations, end-to-end encryption,
even available on F-Droid!
Honestly, looks like it ticks all the boxes an open community would require.
--renato
Whisperity via llvm-dev
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
reasonable (or we get tired of it).
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
>> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
>> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
>> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
>> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> I disagree. This thread is about an IRC replacement, not about a forum replacement . It is inherently for discussions of a transient nature whose history need not be preserved. Like "Hey @rengolin, what's the status of bug N that you were looking at?" Even idle chit-chat and banter. Exactly the kinds of discussions that preserving history is not useful for.
This thread is for both.
That paragraph was about the forum replacement.
I agree preserving history of chats aren't useful.
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for attention...
I very literally cannot cope with that at all. I can't "just filter"
the noise on my own, so, if that becomes the norm, I'll be forced to
pass.
Eric Christopher via llvm-dev
Nemanja Ivanovic via llvm-dev
Andrea Bocci via llvm-dev
1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.
Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
On 18/11/2019 17:47, David Truby via llvm-dev wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>> On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 08:09 -0500, Nico Weber via llvm-dev wrote:FWIW
>> I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects.
>> Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell
>> (?).
>
> As regards this, I wonder if Matrix (matrix.org) has been considered at
> all? It's an open standard protocol with a number of open source
> clients that behaves very similarly to Slack/Discord. A number of other
> open source communities I follow are using this already.
[ Disclaimer: I'm the project lead for Matrix.org, so am hardly
impartial on this. (That said, we keep up with LLVM given we lean on it
hard via emscripten when compiling our end-to-end encryption
implementation (https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm) down to WASM
and JS, so I have some tenuous claim to be lurking here ;) ]
We built Matrix to be an entirely open network and open standard chat
protocol, with the intention of combining the good bits of IRC (the
community; the openness; the standardisation; the relative ease of dev;
open source servers & clients) with clients which provide an accessible
UX of similar quality to Discord/Slack. Riot.im is the most advanced
client, and while it's still not quite as glossy as Discord, the gap is
closing, and we're moving faster than they are.
I get why some open source projects (e.g. bits of Rust) have moved to
Discord out of pragmatism for having the smoothest possible UX to ensure
the widest audience, but it comes at a cost. The main tradeoffs are:
* As others have pointed out, Discord's monetisation model is that
they own your data. In Matrix, all participating servers share
responsibility for conversations, and users can pick whichever server
they happen to trust. The ones we run as Matrix.org have these policies
(https://github.com/vector-im/policies/tree/master/docs/matrix-org), but
you can use whichever you like. Additionally, Matrix is managed by the
non-profit Matrix.org Foundation (https://matrix.org/foundation), to
protect the protocol's users from conflicting commercial interests.
* Discord locks you into a proprietary service. It's the chat
equivalent of using MSVC Express just because it happens to be free and
glossy. Discord explicitly forbids 3rd party clients and bridging, and
you're not exactly going to have the freedom to tweak and extend the
server - which is after all what open source is all about. In contrast,
https://matrix.org/docs/spec is the Spec we publish that forms the core
of the Matrix protocol, and
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now/ is an overview of all
the implementations (servers, clients, bots, bridges etc) of it.
* Discord traps you in a proprietary silo. You can talk to anyone you
like... as long as they're on Discord. If you want to collaborate
directly with other projects on IRC, Slack, XMPP or wherever you're
screwed. Matrix provides increasingly decent bridges to IRC, Discord,
Slack, etc so even if folks aren't natively on Matrix, you can talk to
them anyway. (And if LLVM does end up on Discord, we'll go ahead and
bridge the Discord channels into Matrix anyway :P)
* You don't have any end-to-end encryption. If you ever found
yourself discussing something sensitive (e.g. security vuln
coordination) and don't want eavesdroppers in or around the server from
following along, you're out of luck. Matrix however implements
Signal-style Double Ratchet as required.
I could go on, but I think the best datapoint I can think of is
Mozilla's recent trial where they stood up Matrix/Riot, Slack,
MatterMost & Rocket.chat side by side for a month-long comparison.
(Discord was dismissed out of hand due to their dubious privacy
policies). They haven't announced the final winner yet, but you a
sample of the feedback they gathered can be found at
https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-trial-servers-feedback/44871.
And empirically, by the end of the trial, almost all the community
chatter was happening on Matrix rather than the other instances, which
were a bit dead (at least in the public channels). It also spurred a
*lot* of development - for instance, we went from having some of the
worst accessibility to being one of the best, c.f.
https://toot.cafe/@marcozehe/102998816933348357.
TL;DR: please don't pick a chat solution based purely on its current
shininess and UX. The FOSS options are evolving very rapidly (much more
so than the Slacks & Discords), but we will only be able to grow if
we're given the opportunity, rather than being dismissed due to being
FOSS or "not mainstream" - much like LLVM in the early days needed
champions to spur forward development.
Matthew
P.S. and even if some of Rust are lost on Discord, others ended up on
Matrix, c.f.
https://github.com/rust-embedded/wg/issues/357#issuecomment-504793602
--
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org
Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
If I am not mistaken, there are two things that are becoming clear:1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.2. For IRC, people seem to be happy with switching to a more modern solution, but Discord is largely disliked by a significant portion of respondents.So perhaps we can focus the discussion on "if not Discord, what else?"Slack appears to be problematic due to lack of moderation capabilities. Although I don't understand that, I think it is fine - does not meet a key goal so we can't consider it.This Matrix thing was brought up by some as a possibly viable way forward. Can we look into whether it meets all the goals?Perhaps a good start would be to list the goals. So far it seems like:- moderation capabilities- no terms of service that give the provider ownership of content for all eternity- IRC integration- preferably open source and standard protocols- free?
Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev
Cheers,.Andrea
Mads Ravn via llvm-dev
Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev
<cfe...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 4:52 PM Nemanja Ivanovic via cfe-dev <cfe...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> If I am not mistaken, there are two things that are becoming clear:
>> 1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.
>> 2. For IRC, people seem to be happy with switching to a more modern solution, but Discord is largely disliked by a significant portion of respondents.
>>
>> So perhaps we can focus the discussion on "if not Discord, what else?"
>>
>> Slack appears to be problematic due to lack of moderation capabilities. Although I don't understand that, I think it is fine - does not meet a key goal so we can't consider it.
>>
>> This Matrix thing was brought up by some as a possibly viable way forward. Can we look into whether it meets all the goals?
>>
>> Perhaps a good start would be to list the goals. So far it seems like:
>> - moderation capabilities
>> - no terms of service that give the provider ownership of content for all eternity
>> - IRC integration
>> - preferably open source and standard protocols
>> - free?
>
>
> I’m still not totally sold on needing extensive moderation capabilities. As mentioned earlier, Chromium — an open source project with more developers than LLVM — has a code of conduct similar to LLVMs and manages to get by with a Slack server while still maintaining their code of conduct. It’s possible we’re fundamentally different than Chromium in some way, but I’d like to understand what those are before we decide it’s impossible to have a professional and welcoming environment, because there seems to be an existence proof to the contrary.
>
> IRC integration, as far as i can tell, is an explicit *non* goal.
explicitly not supporting something that is the current status quo
seems to me like the opposite of being inclusive, but more like
being "let's just shake/change things up and force everyone else
to adjust to the new reality."
> FWIW, imo the best way to be welcoming to be new people and/or outsiders is to use tools that they probably already have some exposure to. Being open source is a nice-to-have, but I think it’s a mistake to weigh that heavily in comparison to usability, familiarity, and feature set
Roman
> _______________________________________________
> cfe-dev mailing list
> cfe...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
Алексеев Кирилл via llvm-dev
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
> I’m still not totally sold on needing extensive moderation capabilities. As mentioned earlier, Chromium — an open source project with more developers than LLVM — has a code of conduct similar to LLVMs and manages to get by with a Slack server while still maintaining their code of conduct. It’s possible we’re fundamentally different than Chromium in some way, but I’d like to understand what those are before we decide it’s impossible to have a professional and welcoming environment, because there seems to be an existence proof to the contrary.
There's a truth to it. The problems we had in Bugzilla was spammers,
not "unreasonable people". Back in 2008, I heard stories that a couple
of people got banned from the list/IRC, but nothing since.
But forums, being a web platform (like Bugzilla), make it more
vulnerable to spammers and trolls, which may need more moderation.
We need to be aware of the functionality available, but I agree, I
wouldn't use lack of good moderation as a strong reason not to use a
particular tool.
> FWIW, imo the best way to be welcoming to be new people and/or outsiders is to use tools that they probably already have some exposure to. Being open source is a nice-to-have, but I think it’s a mistake to weigh that heavily in comparison to usability, familiarity, and feature set
If we went with popularity, we'd choose Facebook or WhatsApp. That
can't be the most important criteria. We really need to think about
accessibility, diversity, privacy and security.
With open standards and platforms, in the worst case scenario, we can
modify ourselves to fix whatever is broken and make it as
secure/accessible as we need it to be. We've done some of it with
Phabricator, for example.
We also need to make sure our data (history, threads, control) belong
to us. It would be a deal breaker if we couldn't download a dump of
our mail history, especially for llvm-dev/cfe-dev, in a format that we
can actually consume with other tools.
Finally, we really cannot force developers to sign troubling terms and
conditions or user agreements that they're not comfortable (or able)
to. Unfortunatelly, the world of closed source software nowadays is a
minefield of T&Cs and EULAs and it's almost impossible to actually
know what's going on until after you lost control of your
data/access/rights.
--renato
Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev
On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:43 AM Алексеев Кирилл via llvm-dev
<llvm...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> How to open llvm and clang source tree in QtCreator in same project. I need to write project using clang but also I need to navigate through llvm sources (not only headers). Previous versions of llvm allow clang sources to be located in llvm / tools / clang, but it seems that current versions need clang (and libcxx, ...) in separate directories. So when I open main CmakeList of llvm in QtCreator there is no clang in QtCreator project. Naturally I can preinstall llvm libraries and clang cmake automatically will find them and will dinamically linkclang with then. But I need also llvm sources to be seen in IDE.
You should be using the mono-repository. Just point QtCreator at the
root of that repository, and it'll find Clang, LLVM, and everything
else in there.
Cheers,
Nicolai
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm...@lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
--
Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist,
aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.
Qiu Chaofan via llvm-dev
IRC: https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620
Regards,
Chaofan
Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm...@lists.llvm.org> 于2019年11月18日周一 下午3:48写道：
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler