Moving up to a pod harness

[Sam Smith]

Hi Folks,

I'd like to gather your collective opinions on moving up to a pod harness.

I have about 28 hours since February this year, and have recently moved on to anuke Ozone Rush (High B) glider.

I have really got the flying bug badly. I've been away quite a bit to the pyrenees and Turkey, where I did some SIV training. I'm been pushing quite a bit, but still class myself as a cautious pilot. I'm just very aware of the dangers of the Dunning-Kruger effect!

I would like to get a pod harness and then do another SIV course with that and the new wing in April, and probably sooner rather than later so that I can take advantage of the odd day over winter to practice getting in and out of it.

So, any recommendations on harness choice, my thoughts, or a different plan of action altogether would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Sam

[Brendan Reid]

Hi Sam, 

Congratulations on catching the full virus.   No hope for you nooooowoowwww!

Tim asked same 4 years ago and maybe  some snippets on the pros and cons for you there (info on exact models now a bit out of date).   

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/llsc/pod$20harness$20tim$20jackson/llsc/MiEhs50tnsc

Maybe Tim will comment now on what he ended up doing :)

Bren

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[Andrew Williams]

Sam

I was at your "hours" and level of enthusiasm when I bought a pod.

I sat in a host of harnesses before plonking my backside in a gin genie lite harness and knew it was for me. You really must try a Range of harnesses to see how you feel in them.

The first time I flew it the sensation of control was great - simply because you can use your feet against the foot plate to really add a little finness to your movements.

For me - it added a definite layer of flying pleasure. It also helped me relax and that made for longer Xc flights with more energy at the end.

In that regard I highly recommend them.

A big bonus for Scotland is that it is a lot warmer.

The dark side of pod harnesses is the issue with yaw. If you are seated and have a collapse and the wing dives/rotates - you are more likely to follow the wing and not become twisted. If however you have you legs out (same goes when flying with a foot stirrup) then the inertia of your body can mean that you don't "Follow" the wing and end up with a twist.

Some harnesses (like the genie lite) are effectively a seated harness with a pod add on - for these - you can simply tuck your feet back and become less "twisty"

This is what I would say is the most important thing when you choose - when you sit in a harness to test it - pull your legs underneath and check if you are still "connected" to the harness at your lower back - or if you have slipped forwards. It is really important to feel your lower back up against the harness such that you are seated well back and maintain weight shift control. Have someone move you around in this position - are you still really connected to the harness or is there a chance of slipping out the front and dangling by your nuts?

I wouldn't choose a pod without a seat plate - but that is on higher aspect wings...... proper en-b wings like the rush...... I guess you could go for that as there is more inherent safety - but I would still suggest a seat plate all the same. From my SIV experiences there is a huge difference in control - especially when stalling a glider.

I'd say go for it - but maintain a healthy respect for the basics - don't fly in the Lee! :)

An SIV with your harness / wing combination is really helpful. It amazed my how tiny little tweaks in the harness settings really gave me more control in collapses / stalls etc. In real life you definitely want those extra little margins.

For trying kit - sick and wrong have a fair bit- uk air sports for gin is just a few miles from them and will let you try stuff in their shop - phone ahead and check first for both places though.

Alternatively you can just buy a foot stirrup and save yourself a packet ;)

Enjoy

Andrew



Sent from my iPhone

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[Przemek Marek]

Sam,

Not sure if Bren's link works for you (doesn't work for me for some reason), but basically it's pretty much what Andrew said - they are really comfy, give more feel from the glider (I think... but this may vary with harness models) and they are much warmer, which in Scotland is actually pretty important.  

You do have to learn to drop your legs in rough air (ideally before you may get a collapse!) and spread the knees to the side (fixes you in better position and makes it less likely to slide a bit down the seat when you're not pushing on the tip pod).  Also, and I really can't stress this enough, really sort out your getting into the pod straight after take off with no fussing about right away when you get your harness.  So many times you see pilots (both newer as well as seasoned, experienced ones) letting go of the brakes to grab a pod and get into it straight after take off on a thermic day - really, really bad habit.  You can practice getting in at home to some extent (if you have somewhere to hang your harness from, a bit higher to get some leg room for practice) and also an elastic loop to put over your foot which is attached to the footplate helps a lot, esp for lighter material pods that tend to flap a bit more behind you than heavy neoprene ones. 

I think going to S&W in Keswick is probably the best shout - just find a rainy day and maybe call Steve beforehand to make sure he has a few pods in your size (also I think they are closed on Wed or some other random day mid week).  I did that, spent a couple of hours there and came out with a harness I liked (also Steve is a great salesman!).  But trying out and sitting in different types for at least 10-15 mins is really important.  

Also if we meet up for a drink or club night, it might be worth asking others to bring a pod harness if they have it in your size.  There are a few pods in Glasgow; if you're passing by sometime, give me a shout and if I'm around then you're welcome to have a test-sit in my Delight2 (size M I think).

P. 

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[Ben Johnson]

Hey sam,
                Same as above, with the addition, I was advised to fly with a stirrup first (some said for a year).

If you have not tryed a stirrup, its quite a cheep way of trying this new position in the harness you are used too. I flew for about a year with one in a range of conditions and would recomend it.

I think its handy to do some thermalling using active weightshift with the stirrup. After flying with a strrup, when you fly a pod it will seem so luxurious 😊

I converted to a pod this year choosing the Supair Delight 2. I have a Large and same as Przemek, id be happy for you to try mine for size (im based in Glasgow also).

Steve at the S&W also has 2nd hand kit which could be good for the pocket if its what your after....

Cheers.

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[Sam Smith]

Thanks for all the responses!

Your answers reinforce what I have read before, and my own line of thinking as well. I was having a good chat with Fred Robinson at the Steading last week as he's got into a pod this year, it doesn't seem too daunting so long as you do take the time to set it up right and practice getting in and out.

Ben - I've been flying with a stirrup for almost all of my flying so far. I find it incredibly comfy, and the response in rough air to tuck my legs under me seems to have got programmed in without any glitches.

I'd definitely prefer one with a seat board, and the SupAir Delight 2 seems to tick a lot of boxes in terms of spec and quality for me. I shall go for a test sit next week and see if my bum agrees with it as well. Weight is definitely an issue for me, something sub 4KG would be ideal.

Everyone recommends S&W on here, do they do a club discount? I've dealt with them before, and find Steve and Andy to be great guys. Also in the vicinity of Keswick is Braithwaite, where Jocky Sanderson is based. I know they keep a stock of some harnesses and so will try and get a shot on anything they've got as well.

I'm definitely looking forwards to being a tad warmer in the air!

[Sam Smith]

...also, doe this mean a pub & pod session is required? ;)

[Ben Johnson]

Its the only sure way of making the right decision Sam 😊

On 11 Nov 2016 9:09 a.m., "Sam Smith" <samsmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

...also, doe this mean a pub & pod session is required? ;)

--

[Fred Robinson]

Hi Sam, comments - johnny come lately as usual.

I got a pod for several reasons and having done so there are only a couple of things which to me seem less good than an open harness. When you are flying on a day taking off and landing a lot it is less convenient, getting ready to fly takes longer and in turbulent air I have felt my legs want to move more than is handy in the pod. and of course getting in and out of it which took a bit of sorting out. I am still trying to get the speed bar just right. Impact protection seems less than I prefer on most pods I looked at. I personally have found the up side bigger than the down. It is fair to say a pod is not for all and doesn't make you more skillful or less cool or anything else. its an alternative with plus and minus points.

I find it comfortable. I like the feed back and control especially as I fly what Nova sell as a glider suitable for beginners.  I find the way my glider turns is better.I like the being warmer. The pod is supposed to improve glide a bit and of course I like that. I had spoken with Nova and they confirmed they do development testing with both open and pod harnesses which is what I would have expected.

I like having a seat plate even a reduced size one.

I chose a pod with straps and buckles in the pod rather than ultralight just line and knots - its my engineering background.

I wanted not as light as possible but as light as sensible.

I should also say I found it hard to choose and did in fact borrow a second hand one from Steve Giles which was really helpful. Hanging indoors is not quite the same as flying.

weight is kind of interesting.  I bought a glider with me 3/4 up the weight range as I wanted. After that buying the pod needed a new reserve both of which are lighter. I then got a lighter rucksack and because the pod is warmer mostly stopped taking a flying suit. That all came to about 5kg so I am now 1/2 way up the weight range.

All the above is personal comment. The following is advice!

Dont drink the tea at the sick and wrong till you are definitely ready to buy - just saying......... might be nothing in it

--

[Seb Rider]

Not quite sure of your experience Sam so this advice is on that basis. Just to add to other folks views...

I moved quite late on into a pod, on the Rush 4, maybe at 200 hours ish, I had been flying a stirrup a while before that. I heard somewhere a way of looking at the effects of a pod is a bit like adding 1/2 an EN rating, which is not absolute, but a way to appreciate what may be the impact of adding a pod to your set up, especially with the effects of yaw as Andrew points out. 

As opposed to everyone one else that has replied I have no seat board and the inherent implications. My harness, is by default quite supine so there are issues with yaw. It really did change the feel of my set up, I got a lot more feed back. I do enjoy the pod but it will be interesting to SIV with it, not done so yet. I am interested in how it will be with SIV, as I will be flying at my limit, not something I have done yet with my pod/wing set up. I tired a pod with seat board earlier on in my flying career and hated it, I think due to both the pod and my experience. Everyone is different though, that was just my experience of it. 

I much preferred ground handling and kiting without a pod. 

 

Cheers, Seb     

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[Brendan Reid]

4 years old so model info out of date but what did the Germans say?

https://www.dhv.de/web/en/safety/safety-tests/pod-harness-test/ 

[ambow...@aol.com]

I haven't gone to a pod. 

I've never been so cold, in my legs anyway, that I felt the need to do so.

Similarly, I doubt very much if the possible aerodynamic benefit  would make any step change to my flying.

A stirrup, yes; the improved feeling and feedback I fully endorse, but I'm not sure the benefit of a pod  outweigh the down sides.  The "enclosed equals feeling safer "  I do get, but whether that is a good thing is debatable.

It might be less expensive to experiment with a stirrup first.  

Just a slightly different take.

Alistair B.

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[derekg...@gmail.com]

Positives I'd say are:
Comfort.
Feel more connected to the glider through higher feedback . Although that's likely to be glider dependant.
Warmth. Don't underestimate that in Scotland.

Negatives:
Cost. Feckin stupidly expensive. But then toys don't need justification!
Like above, possibly higher feedback. Can be viewed either way.
Potentially makes collapse recovery harder work, and as mentioned previously the lower hang points will have an effect on yaw.

If you feel a bit wary about a higher level of feedback, then maybe get used to flying with a  stirrup rather than going for a pod.

I love mine, but I'd say don't get one just because everybody else has one.
Although new toys are good.
And Steve Giles makes a fine cup of tea.

Derek

[Sam Smith]

Some good contrasting views.

I'm not committed to the pod just yet, but my thinking was that if I practiced with it in winter then I might be able to iron out the getting settled in it issue before the spicy spring air comes around again.

I normally fly feet out front and elbows tucked in behind the risers when I'm feeling comfortable, the transition to legal tucked and elbows out in rough air seems to happen without too much thought. This gives me some confidence in the habits I've picked up so far, which I hope will carry over to a new harness.

I am not planning on getting rid of my open harness if I do get a pod. It's a SupAir PixAir, which is a pretty good beginner freestyle harness as well.

Keeping hold of this would give me an option to go back to it if the pod was a bit much on funky days.

I know that I do want to be flying a pod in the future. Ideally not too late and not too soon, either. I think the worst thing I could do is to get rid of my open harness, buy a pod and then not fly it for 4 months until the weather got better.

If I can take advantage of even some TTB days then I'll be able to get to grips with it before the real fun starts.

[Przemek Marek]

Sam,

I made my "transition" with SupAir XC3 which can be flown with or without a pod.  Bear in mind some people (pgforum...) think that about Delight 2 as well, but it's not really a harness to be flow without a pod.  Even XC3 flown with a stirrup was very different to when flown with a pod - makes an amazing difference actually.  It's not as light as the lighter pods these days but it has really decent protection.  Exchanged it after a year for a Delight2 with Steve and got a really good deal, so if you're uncertain then perhaps this may be a way forward?  I think there are a couple of other pods nowadays (Genie light 2?... not sure though) that can be flow with and without - but check this properly before you buy!

P.

 

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[Seb Rider]

PS, it is not uncommon for there to be F all flying in the winter immediately followed by a lively spring!  Hopefully this winter will have some good days...could do with them for some flying practice!

On 11 November 2016 at 14:53, Przemek Marek <przeme...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sam,

I made my "transition" with SupAir XC3 which can be flown with or without a pod.  Bear in mind some people (pgforum...) think that about Delight 2 as well, but it's not really a harness to be flow without a pod.  Even XC3 flown with a stirrup was very different to when flown with a pod - makes an amazing difference actually.  It's not as light as the lighter pods these days but it has really decent protection.  Exchanged it after a year for a Delight2 with Steve and got a really good deal, so if you're uncertain then perhaps this may be a way forward?  I think there are a couple of other pods nowadays (Genie light 2?... not sure though) that can be flow with and without - but check this properly before you buy!

P.

 

On 11 November 2016 at 14:43, Sam Smith <samsmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Some good contrasting views.

I'm not committed to the pod just yet, but my thinking was that if I practiced with it in winter then I might be able to iron out the getting settled in it issue before the spicy spring air comes around again.

I normally fly feet out front and elbows tucked in behind the risers when I'm feeling comfortable, the transition to legal tucked and elbows out in rough air seems to happen without too much thought. This gives me some confidence in the habits I've picked up so far, which I hope will carry over to a new harness.

I am not planning on getting rid of my open harness if I do get a pod. It's a SupAir PixAir, which is a pretty good beginner freestyle harness as well.

Keeping hold of this would give me an option to go back to it if the pod was a bit much on funky days.

I know that I do want to be flying a pod in the future. Ideally not too late and not too soon, either. I think the worst thing I could do is to get rid of my open harness, buy a pod and then not fly it for 4 months until the weather got better.

If I can take advantage of even some TTB days then I'll be able to get to grips with it before the real fun starts.

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[Sam Smith]

Thank you all so much for your input.

It's really great to get such a lively discussion going about what I imagine is one of the bigger milestones in a new pilot's progression.

It was good to see some cautionary responses along with all the encouragement, detailing the difficulty that may be had in extracting the reserve container in high G or otherwise spicy situations. The comments about risk of injury being higher due to reduced protection were also in my mind when I drove south on Tuesday.

I went to Jocky Sanderson as first point of call, I've done a bit of training with him and like his manner. I did a hang test in the following harnesses:

Ozone Forza - no seat plate, ridiculously comfy and warm but too heavy for me. Semi complex fastening system but only 2 main buckle connections so very little chance of going wrong. I like that the under seat foam can be removed from it'seems packing bag, which would be great for big expeditions where you might replace this film with a sleeping bag/mat.

Ozone Ozium - super light version of above, surprisingly comfy considering the weight but I'm not a fan of the knotted string construction. Adjustment on the fly is nigh on impossible for the speed bag for all harnesses of this style.

Advance Lightness 2 - quite comfy considering lightweight construction, comes with loads of extras like rucksack, etc. A very popular choice but not for me personally due to adjustment/durability.

Gin Genie Lite - lots of buckles. So many buckles! 4 different types of connector to get into it, I cold see this being a real issue on a hectic launch. For me, this is too much. Exceptionally comfy, it has this foam lumbar support which seems slightly superfluous as most harnesses have a dedicated strap for this, but if you plan on spending more time flying than hiking, this could be the one at only 4.4kg. The seat feels slightly wider on this harness than the others I tried, which is good if you've got child bearing hips like me.

Supair Delight 2 - pretty robust construction, separate leg and cheat strap. Very easy to adjust with turnbuckle a and 12mm straps. A very well-appointed harness but still in the semi lightweight category. I have a SupAir harness already, which may have swayed my decision due to familiarity with the layout of the buckles. I chose this one, thought it's not the lightest or the cheapest, I like the feel of a seat board and alsomlienthatbthw reaeeve handle lies directly below the right hand carabiner, which allows you to feel down the risers and locate it easily. Testing also shows this one shows good reserve extraction capability.

It took about 2.5 hours to choose the super air and the reserve, etc. After that we went for a little fly - awesome day!

Cheers folks,

Sam

[Sam Smith]

Sorry, phone fart.

* alsomlienthatbthw reaeeve handle = also the reserve handle