Milton Group 4: Jessica Lau, Kathy Liu, Ronald Baxter, Xiya Ma, Julia Altmann
6 views
Skip to first unread message
William Shakespeare
Apr 10, 2012, 9:45:40 PM4/10/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
To illustrate a written text is to offer an interpretation of it.
Through this forum, consider how one or both of the two illustrations
below read Milton’s poem. Your first post, which may be independent
of or in dialogue with another student’s post, is due on Sunday April
15th at midnight. Your second post, which must be in dialogue with
another post, is due on Friday April 20th at midnight. Additional
posts are welcome! Posts that do not satisfactorily meet assignment
criteria and/or are put up after the deadlines will receive a zero.
Please be respectful of your classmates – do not post anything that is
offensive or insensitive. When disagreeing with someone else, be
courteous and keep your comments focused on the other students’
writing/ideas.
The illustrations (http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/
illlustration/index.html#)
- 1688 Edition Pic #3: “Michael Burgesse after anon. [John Baptist de
Medina ?], illustration to Book II of 'Paradise Lost' (1688)”
- Francis Hayman Pic #3: “Charles Grignon after Francis Hayman,
illustration to Book II of 'Paradise Lost' (1749)”
Here are some questions that you might consider:
- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from the poem?
- What additions do the illustrations make to the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?
- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?
In answering questions like those above, you might consider one or
more of the following topics:
- Characterization, both in terms of individuals and relationships
between individuals
- Setting (i.e. Hell as a place)
- Plot
- Sexuality
- Gender
- Morality
- Pleasure/pain
- Strength
- Power
- Evocations of specific cultural/historical moments
- Anthropomorphism (i.e. depicting the non-human as human)
- Theology
- England prior to the poem’s composition: politics, war, social
structure, etc.
- Formal elements: style, use of light and darkness, degree of
realism, spatial organization, closeness/distance, the absence of
colour, the use of colour, etc.
Through this forum, consider how one or both of the two illustrations
below read Milton’s poem. Your first post, which may be independent
of or in dialogue with another student’s post, is due on Sunday April
15th at midnight. Your second post, which must be in dialogue with
another post, is due on Friday April 20th at midnight. Additional
posts are welcome! Posts that do not satisfactorily meet assignment
criteria and/or are put up after the deadlines will receive a zero.
Please be respectful of your classmates – do not post anything that is
offensive or insensitive. When disagreeing with someone else, be
courteous and keep your comments focused on the other students’
writing/ideas.
The illustrations (http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/
illlustration/index.html#)
- 1688 Edition Pic #3: “Michael Burgesse after anon. [John Baptist de
Medina ?], illustration to Book II of 'Paradise Lost' (1688)”
- Francis Hayman Pic #3: “Charles Grignon after Francis Hayman,
illustration to Book II of 'Paradise Lost' (1749)”
Here are some questions that you might consider:
- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from the poem?
- What additions do the illustrations make to the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?
- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?
In answering questions like those above, you might consider one or
more of the following topics:
- Characterization, both in terms of individuals and relationships
between individuals
- Setting (i.e. Hell as a place)
- Plot
- Sexuality
- Gender
- Morality
- Pleasure/pain
- Strength
- Power
- Evocations of specific cultural/historical moments
- Anthropomorphism (i.e. depicting the non-human as human)
- Theology
- England prior to the poem’s composition: politics, war, social
structure, etc.
- Formal elements: style, use of light and darkness, degree of
realism, spatial organization, closeness/distance, the absence of
colour, the use of colour, etc.
Xiya Ma
Apr 13, 2012, 10:58:05 PM4/13/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Francis Hayman’s illustration of Book II of “Paradise Lost” depicts
Satan escaping the doors of Hell in a similar fashion to a typical
scene in Greek/Roman mythology. In fact, when we compare this
illustration with the 1688 Edition one, we can clearly see that
Hayman’s version shows the characters, especially Satan and Sin, in a
more idealized way. For instance, Satan is shown with a muscular,
sturdy-looking body and feathered wings. His generous proportions are
meant to show a rather handsome, charming man. This portrayal is very
commonly found in representations of Greek/Roman deities such as
Hermes/Mercury or Dionysus/Bacchus, as they represent the Ancients’
ideal of masculine beauty. As a matter of fact, little about Hayman’s
image of Satan actually identify him as a this mischievous creature,
contrarily to the 1688’s Edition where Satan is clearly holding a
pitchfork with his usual demonic features and his sharp wings. This
lack makes Hayman’s Satan a pagan ideal instead of a Christian
character, which is troublesome since Milton’s intention for “Paradise
Lost” was to show that Christian culture was superior to Pagan
culture. Nonetheless, it achieves this idealization of Satan that is
reflected in the text, a matter which was previously discussed in
class.
The same can be observed for the character Sin. While she is portrayed
with her snake bottom and vicious hounds, her upper body is still very
young and beautiful according to the Ancients’ standards. Her face is
of a young woman with flowy hair, and her upper body is similar to the
ones of female Greek/Roman deities such as Aphrodite/Venus. In
contrast, in the 1688 Edition, Sin’s face is in obscurity, and we can
easily make that her complexion is not very attractive.
Hayman’s classical approach can seem to be unfit for Milton’s
Christian work. However, some elements in his version really reflect
the epicness that Milton was looking for. Satan's flowing draperies
and the fog/steam give a feeling of movement, which refers to the
amount of action in the epic poem.
On Apr 10, 9:45 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Satan escaping the doors of Hell in a similar fashion to a typical
scene in Greek/Roman mythology. In fact, when we compare this
illustration with the 1688 Edition one, we can clearly see that
Hayman’s version shows the characters, especially Satan and Sin, in a
more idealized way. For instance, Satan is shown with a muscular,
sturdy-looking body and feathered wings. His generous proportions are
meant to show a rather handsome, charming man. This portrayal is very
commonly found in representations of Greek/Roman deities such as
Hermes/Mercury or Dionysus/Bacchus, as they represent the Ancients’
ideal of masculine beauty. As a matter of fact, little about Hayman’s
image of Satan actually identify him as a this mischievous creature,
contrarily to the 1688’s Edition where Satan is clearly holding a
pitchfork with his usual demonic features and his sharp wings. This
lack makes Hayman’s Satan a pagan ideal instead of a Christian
character, which is troublesome since Milton’s intention for “Paradise
Lost” was to show that Christian culture was superior to Pagan
culture. Nonetheless, it achieves this idealization of Satan that is
reflected in the text, a matter which was previously discussed in
class.
The same can be observed for the character Sin. While she is portrayed
with her snake bottom and vicious hounds, her upper body is still very
young and beautiful according to the Ancients’ standards. Her face is
of a young woman with flowy hair, and her upper body is similar to the
ones of female Greek/Roman deities such as Aphrodite/Venus. In
contrast, in the 1688 Edition, Sin’s face is in obscurity, and we can
easily make that her complexion is not very attractive.
Hayman’s classical approach can seem to be unfit for Milton’s
Christian work. However, some elements in his version really reflect
the epicness that Milton was looking for. Satan's flowing draperies
and the fog/steam give a feeling of movement, which refers to the
amount of action in the epic poem.
On Apr 10, 9:45 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Kathy Liu
Apr 15, 2012, 3:20:30 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
The two illustrations depict Satan's encounter with Sin and Death,
with a few differences when compared to the poem, the most obvious one
being the representation of Death. Death is not the "shape, / If shape
it might be called that shape had none / Distinguishable in member,
joint, or limb, / Or substance might be called that shadow
seemed" (lines 666-669) described in Paradise Lost. Rather, Death is
an emaciated, skeletal figure, with a skull-like face. This difference
is puzzling, and merits a tentative explanation.
Milton's characterization of Death as an amorphous figure can be taken
to mean that death comes in various forms. Death has no definite
shape; hence, it can take whatever shape it wants when it touches
mortals. Furthermore, its shapelessness also represents the unknown.
The living has never experienced death, and the dead cannot return to
share the experience. No one truly knows what death is like, and like
every aspect of death, its appearance is also unknown.
The artist interpretations do not portray Death as this indeterminate
shape, not the least reason being that a visual representation of
shapelessness is impossible. Another possible explanation is that
Death is much more identifiable as a skeletal figure. We naturally
associate skeletons with death, since it is result of the decay of a
body after life has left it. Therefore, the viewer will easily
recognize the figure as Death when looking at the illustrations.
The intention in the portrayal of Death in the poem and in the
illustrations is therefore different. Milton’s description of death is
heavy with signification, while the artists are only concerned with
providing an accurate representation of the scene, and not with the
accurate representation of the intention of the author.
with a few differences when compared to the poem, the most obvious one
being the representation of Death. Death is not the "shape, / If shape
it might be called that shape had none / Distinguishable in member,
joint, or limb, / Or substance might be called that shadow
seemed" (lines 666-669) described in Paradise Lost. Rather, Death is
an emaciated, skeletal figure, with a skull-like face. This difference
is puzzling, and merits a tentative explanation.
Milton's characterization of Death as an amorphous figure can be taken
to mean that death comes in various forms. Death has no definite
shape; hence, it can take whatever shape it wants when it touches
mortals. Furthermore, its shapelessness also represents the unknown.
The living has never experienced death, and the dead cannot return to
share the experience. No one truly knows what death is like, and like
every aspect of death, its appearance is also unknown.
The artist interpretations do not portray Death as this indeterminate
shape, not the least reason being that a visual representation of
shapelessness is impossible. Another possible explanation is that
Death is much more identifiable as a skeletal figure. We naturally
associate skeletons with death, since it is result of the decay of a
body after life has left it. Therefore, the viewer will easily
recognize the figure as Death when looking at the illustrations.
The intention in the portrayal of Death in the poem and in the
illustrations is therefore different. Milton’s description of death is
heavy with signification, while the artists are only concerned with
providing an accurate representation of the scene, and not with the
accurate representation of the intention of the author.
Ronald Baxter
Apr 15, 2012, 4:45:21 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
While it is obvious the two illustrations depict Satan in a very
different way, I don't feel that Hayman's portrayal is necessarily a
pagan one. In fact, I would argue that Hayman's depiction is the one
that is more fit for Milton's work. Firstly, The 1688 Edition's
portrayal of Satan is one that is demonic and rather ugly. Along with
the pitchfork and horns it is indeed a depiction of Satan that is more
atune to stereotypical Christian vision of Satan. Francis Hayman's
depiction on the other hand focuses more on the fact that Satan is a
fallen angel, giving him large feathery wings, flowing robes, and a
handsome face. There is some undeniable elements of Greek/Roman
mythology involved, but considering that Milton's poem is an epic in
the mold of works by the likes of Homer, I find it rather befitting.
Furthermore, I feel that Hayman's depiction is a much more accurate
one because many of Milton's descriptions seem to suggest that Satan
is a strong, brave, and perhaps even physically beautiful character
(much like Greek heroes such as Achilles).
> > colour, the use of colour, etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
different way, I don't feel that Hayman's portrayal is necessarily a
pagan one. In fact, I would argue that Hayman's depiction is the one
that is more fit for Milton's work. Firstly, The 1688 Edition's
portrayal of Satan is one that is demonic and rather ugly. Along with
the pitchfork and horns it is indeed a depiction of Satan that is more
atune to stereotypical Christian vision of Satan. Francis Hayman's
depiction on the other hand focuses more on the fact that Satan is a
fallen angel, giving him large feathery wings, flowing robes, and a
handsome face. There is some undeniable elements of Greek/Roman
mythology involved, but considering that Milton's poem is an epic in
the mold of works by the likes of Homer, I find it rather befitting.
Furthermore, I feel that Hayman's depiction is a much more accurate
one because many of Milton's descriptions seem to suggest that Satan
is a strong, brave, and perhaps even physically beautiful character
(much like Greek heroes such as Achilles).
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kathy Liu
Apr 15, 2012, 5:09:29 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Can I just say that I completely agree? ^^ I was about to point that
out myself.
out myself.
Jessi Lau
Apr 15, 2012, 10:27:30 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
In both depiction, there is a artists had different views of Satan.
In Hayman's depiction, Satan is viewed as an angel with bird like
wings in a Roman warrior like armour while in the other illustration,
Satan has bat wings and medusa like hair. He is also depicted in this
illustration without armour. Comparing both illustration, Hayman's
depiction is more angelic and more human, while Satan in the other
depiction clearly shows that he is no longer an angel, he has mutated
into another creature. This is significant because it shows how far
Satan has fallen to have his body mutated and armour stripped away.
Sin, in Hayman's depiction, looks more attractive. This could
symbolize the attractiveness of sinning to mortals and how easy a
human can fall for it. Also unlike in Milton's tale where Death is
described as only a dark shape or figure, here, in both depictions,
Death is shown as a skinny, nutrition less, worn out, skull faced man.
The setting are also depicted differently in both illustrations. In
Hayman's, Hell's gate is shown as gate doors, which seem to fall apart
as Satan goes pass them, while in the other illustration Hell's gate
is simply a stone doorway. There are also other little things such as
the flames depicted in Hayman's illustration. The flames, which are
not depicted in the other illustration, have a great significance in
the poem because they symbolize Hell and God's punishment. And in the
other illustration, the artist added three little devils, two of which
are playing horns. These devils are not mentioned in the actual poem
by Milton.
In Hayman's depiction, Satan is viewed as an angel with bird like
wings in a Roman warrior like armour while in the other illustration,
Satan has bat wings and medusa like hair. He is also depicted in this
illustration without armour. Comparing both illustration, Hayman's
depiction is more angelic and more human, while Satan in the other
depiction clearly shows that he is no longer an angel, he has mutated
into another creature. This is significant because it shows how far
Satan has fallen to have his body mutated and armour stripped away.
Sin, in Hayman's depiction, looks more attractive. This could
symbolize the attractiveness of sinning to mortals and how easy a
human can fall for it. Also unlike in Milton's tale where Death is
described as only a dark shape or figure, here, in both depictions,
Death is shown as a skinny, nutrition less, worn out, skull faced man.
The setting are also depicted differently in both illustrations. In
Hayman's, Hell's gate is shown as gate doors, which seem to fall apart
as Satan goes pass them, while in the other illustration Hell's gate
is simply a stone doorway. There are also other little things such as
the flames depicted in Hayman's illustration. The flames, which are
not depicted in the other illustration, have a great significance in
the poem because they symbolize Hell and God's punishment. And in the
other illustration, the artist added three little devils, two of which
are playing horns. These devils are not mentioned in the actual poem
by Milton.
Julia Altmann
Apr 15, 2012, 10:29:57 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
The 1688 edition picture clearly shows Satan encountering Death and
Sin at the gates of Hell. The picture emphasizes the snakes and wolf
heads under Sin’s waist as said in the book, however, the book states
that she was “fair” (650) and in the picture Sin’s looks are
emphasized, in fact she looks ugly, almost manly even. However when it
comes to Death, the painter painted Death as a skeleton when in the
book it states that the “if shape it might be called that shape had
none” (667), meaning Death didn’t have a shape. In fact, it was
“shadow seemed” (679), meaning not only wasn’t it like a shape but it
was also kind of a spirit, it wasn’t solid. In addition, in the
picture Death is colored lightly, when in the book it states that
Death was “black it stood as Night” (670), therefore the picture de-
emphasized Death’s darkness. In addition, in the picture Satan is
given a six-pack and armour, emphasizing the books description of
Satan as being “Unterrified, and like a comet burned” (708). The
picture makes several additions to the poem, such as the three little
devils playing instruments on top of Death, Sin and Satan and the
painter also gives Death a robe and arrows. When it comes to
Anthropomorphism, Satan is depicted almost entirely as a human, except
for the horns above his head. Besides for the snakes and hounds below
her waist, Sin is also almost fully predicted as a human. In addition,
Death is given a human skeleton as it’s body.
When it comes to Francis Hayman’s picture, just the like the 1688
edition, its depicting Satan’s encounter at the gates of Hell with Sin
and Death. Just like in the book and the 1688 edition picture, Sin is
fully a woman until her waist. However, although Sin has the hounds at
her waist she doesn’t have the snakes and instead she has snake-like
tails without any snakeheads, therefore differentiating from both the
book and the other picture. In addition, the picture emphasizes Sin’s
looks from the book since in the picture she has large breasts
(emphasizing her womanhood) and long hair and a pretty face. This
differentiates from the other picture, since in the other one sin
wasn’t so appealing. When it comes to Death, Hayman’s image of Death
is almost identical to that of the 1688 Edition. Death is resembled as
a skeleton, holding a weapon. However, Death is a little bit more
muscular in Hayman’s picture. The difference is in Hayman’s picture
Death has a crown and instead of charging at Satan with a weapon like
in the 1688 edition, he looks almost taken aback and isn’t attacking
Satan. When it comes to Satan, he is extremely disproportionate to
the other figures in the picture, and he is significantly bigger. In
addition, Satan is in a full attire of armor and robes, whereas in the
other picture he is almost naked. In addition, Satan’s wings are much
bigger in Hayman’s picture than the 1688 edition. Similarly to the
1688 edition, Satan is very good-looking and muscular. However, in
this picture Satan has an evil smirk on his face, which matches the
description of himself in the book, because the smirk can mean that he
is aware that he is in control of the situation and he will be
victorious. Another difference in between the two pictures is that in
Hayman’s picture the gate is much bigger than the gate in the 1688
picture, and in addition Hayman didn’t include other devils in the
background.
I think hayman’s picture is much more appropriate as a companion to
the poem because it matches the descriptions in the poem well. Sin’s
womanhood is emphasized, Death doesn’t look like he is overpowering
Satan, and Satan being much bigger than the other figures, being fully
clothed and his smirk on his face shows his confidence, as described
in the poem.
Sin at the gates of Hell. The picture emphasizes the snakes and wolf
heads under Sin’s waist as said in the book, however, the book states
that she was “fair” (650) and in the picture Sin’s looks are
emphasized, in fact she looks ugly, almost manly even. However when it
comes to Death, the painter painted Death as a skeleton when in the
book it states that the “if shape it might be called that shape had
none” (667), meaning Death didn’t have a shape. In fact, it was
“shadow seemed” (679), meaning not only wasn’t it like a shape but it
was also kind of a spirit, it wasn’t solid. In addition, in the
picture Death is colored lightly, when in the book it states that
Death was “black it stood as Night” (670), therefore the picture de-
emphasized Death’s darkness. In addition, in the picture Satan is
given a six-pack and armour, emphasizing the books description of
Satan as being “Unterrified, and like a comet burned” (708). The
picture makes several additions to the poem, such as the three little
devils playing instruments on top of Death, Sin and Satan and the
painter also gives Death a robe and arrows. When it comes to
Anthropomorphism, Satan is depicted almost entirely as a human, except
for the horns above his head. Besides for the snakes and hounds below
her waist, Sin is also almost fully predicted as a human. In addition,
Death is given a human skeleton as it’s body.
When it comes to Francis Hayman’s picture, just the like the 1688
edition, its depicting Satan’s encounter at the gates of Hell with Sin
and Death. Just like in the book and the 1688 edition picture, Sin is
fully a woman until her waist. However, although Sin has the hounds at
her waist she doesn’t have the snakes and instead she has snake-like
tails without any snakeheads, therefore differentiating from both the
book and the other picture. In addition, the picture emphasizes Sin’s
looks from the book since in the picture she has large breasts
(emphasizing her womanhood) and long hair and a pretty face. This
differentiates from the other picture, since in the other one sin
wasn’t so appealing. When it comes to Death, Hayman’s image of Death
is almost identical to that of the 1688 Edition. Death is resembled as
a skeleton, holding a weapon. However, Death is a little bit more
muscular in Hayman’s picture. The difference is in Hayman’s picture
Death has a crown and instead of charging at Satan with a weapon like
in the 1688 edition, he looks almost taken aback and isn’t attacking
Satan. When it comes to Satan, he is extremely disproportionate to
the other figures in the picture, and he is significantly bigger. In
addition, Satan is in a full attire of armor and robes, whereas in the
other picture he is almost naked. In addition, Satan’s wings are much
bigger in Hayman’s picture than the 1688 edition. Similarly to the
1688 edition, Satan is very good-looking and muscular. However, in
this picture Satan has an evil smirk on his face, which matches the
description of himself in the book, because the smirk can mean that he
is aware that he is in control of the situation and he will be
victorious. Another difference in between the two pictures is that in
Hayman’s picture the gate is much bigger than the gate in the 1688
picture, and in addition Hayman didn’t include other devils in the
background.
I think hayman’s picture is much more appropriate as a companion to
the poem because it matches the descriptions in the poem well. Sin’s
womanhood is emphasized, Death doesn’t look like he is overpowering
Satan, and Satan being much bigger than the other figures, being fully
clothed and his smirk on his face shows his confidence, as described
in the poem.
Xiya Ma
Apr 17, 2012, 10:59:41 PM4/17/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I believe you mention some good points, but I still stand firmly by
the idea that Hayman's version is less appropriate for Milton's
intentions.
You say that "Milton's poem is an epic in the mold of works by the
likes of Homer". I think Milton would be very insulted if we leveled
his work to Homer's, since he clearly stated that he will surpass the
epicness of Homer's works. By depicting his characters alike those in
Greek/Roman epics, it would be like putting Milton's work to the pagan
level, which would most likely anger our beloved poet. Also, it is
obvious that Milton's intention is to celebrate the power and
greatness of God, so it would only be natural to take God's side.
Therefore, it would not be surprising to illustrate the antagonists
from a demonic/ugly perspective, since they probably "deserve" it
because they disobeyed God and lost their goodness (in every sense of
the word). It is true that Satan is described as a "strong, brave, and
perhaps even physically beautiful character" in the text, but beauty
is a subjective matter. Not to mention that artists from this period
usually associate physical beauty with spiritual beauty i.e. faith (if
you don't believe me, go ask ANY art history teacher in the school or
google christian images online), and it would be extremely unfit to
render a rebel beautiful.
And Kathy, I will deal with YOUR post in the near future. Prepare to
suffer dire consequences from an academic stand point. (Insert
sinister music, evil glare and blazing flames of revenge).
the idea that Hayman's version is less appropriate for Milton's
intentions.
You say that "Milton's poem is an epic in the mold of works by the
likes of Homer". I think Milton would be very insulted if we leveled
his work to Homer's, since he clearly stated that he will surpass the
epicness of Homer's works. By depicting his characters alike those in
Greek/Roman epics, it would be like putting Milton's work to the pagan
level, which would most likely anger our beloved poet. Also, it is
obvious that Milton's intention is to celebrate the power and
greatness of God, so it would only be natural to take God's side.
Therefore, it would not be surprising to illustrate the antagonists
from a demonic/ugly perspective, since they probably "deserve" it
because they disobeyed God and lost their goodness (in every sense of
the word). It is true that Satan is described as a "strong, brave, and
perhaps even physically beautiful character" in the text, but beauty
is a subjective matter. Not to mention that artists from this period
usually associate physical beauty with spiritual beauty i.e. faith (if
you don't believe me, go ask ANY art history teacher in the school or
google christian images online), and it would be extremely unfit to
render a rebel beautiful.
And Kathy, I will deal with YOUR post in the near future. Prepare to
suffer dire consequences from an academic stand point. (Insert
sinister music, evil glare and blazing flames of revenge).
Kathy Liu
Apr 19, 2012, 2:02:07 PM4/19/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I would like to point out that whether Milton would feel insulted or
not (which, by the way, we have no way of knowing) should not have
anything to do with how appropriate the image is. Even though it might
not have been Milton's goal to have his characters compared to Greek
heroes, we cannot deny there are obvious resemblances between Paradise
Lost and classic Greek epics, such as those we covered in class.
Therefore, it seems perfectly appropriate to me that a visual
representation of the characters in Paradise lost also resemble Greek
ideals. Though the image may not be faithful to Milton's intentions,
it is definitely faithful to his text.
Furthermore, I would like to contest your point that "it would only be
natural [for Milton] to take God's side". From Milton's heroic
description of Satan, I agree with William Blake when he points out,
“The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and
at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of
the Devils [sic] party without knowing it.” Therefore, I don't think
portraying Satan and the other characters as "demonic/ugly" is the
most appropriate representation. While Milton may have said (and even
believed) he wanted to "celebrate the power and greatness of God", his
text does portray the fallen angels in a favorable light, and I think
Hayman's image accurately reflects that.
I agree that "artists from this period usually associate physical
beauty with spiritual beauty", but I think that in Hayman's case, he
is trying to show that the actions and attitudes of the characters may
seem "spiritually" beautiful (i.e. some of their values seem right and
appeal to us), which is why they have the associated physical beauty.
And as for your last comment, all I can say is bring it on!!! >:)
not (which, by the way, we have no way of knowing) should not have
anything to do with how appropriate the image is. Even though it might
not have been Milton's goal to have his characters compared to Greek
heroes, we cannot deny there are obvious resemblances between Paradise
Lost and classic Greek epics, such as those we covered in class.
Therefore, it seems perfectly appropriate to me that a visual
representation of the characters in Paradise lost also resemble Greek
ideals. Though the image may not be faithful to Milton's intentions,
it is definitely faithful to his text.
Furthermore, I would like to contest your point that "it would only be
natural [for Milton] to take God's side". From Milton's heroic
description of Satan, I agree with William Blake when he points out,
“The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and
at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of
the Devils [sic] party without knowing it.” Therefore, I don't think
portraying Satan and the other characters as "demonic/ugly" is the
most appropriate representation. While Milton may have said (and even
believed) he wanted to "celebrate the power and greatness of God", his
text does portray the fallen angels in a favorable light, and I think
Hayman's image accurately reflects that.
I agree that "artists from this period usually associate physical
beauty with spiritual beauty", but I think that in Hayman's case, he
is trying to show that the actions and attitudes of the characters may
seem "spiritually" beautiful (i.e. some of their values seem right and
appeal to us), which is why they have the associated physical beauty.
And as for your last comment, all I can say is bring it on!!! >:)
Julia Altmann
Apr 19, 2012, 10:48:59 PM4/19/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I agree with you on many of your points, however I don't think In
Hayman's picture Satan has birdlike wings. Those wings are too large
and by the looks of it, heavy to be birds wings. Birds usually have
much smaller, thinner and less detailed and figured wings. I agree
with you on the fact that Haymans picture depicts the figures as more
human with more beautiful and charming features whereas the other
picture depicts the figures as demonic and ugly. However, you state
that Satan went so far down into Hell that he got his armour stripped
away. We dont even know that he had armour to begin with, and even if
he did, God could have stripped the armor away when he sent him down
to Hell rather than the effects of Hell itself. I like your point on
comparing sin's beauty to the attrativeness of sins to humans. to add
on to that point, it reminded me of the original sin of Eve. In
addition, contiuining on to your point that the three devils added in
the picture are playing with horns, these horns may symbolize the
stereotype we make that the Devil has two horns sticking out of its
head, "devil horns". In addition, in biblical times oil was poured out
of horns on top of people to name them as kings, the horn symbolizing
"forever". This can also symbolize the immortality and power of the
figures depicted. Besides for those few comments, I agree with
everything you said!
Hayman's picture Satan has birdlike wings. Those wings are too large
and by the looks of it, heavy to be birds wings. Birds usually have
much smaller, thinner and less detailed and figured wings. I agree
with you on the fact that Haymans picture depicts the figures as more
human with more beautiful and charming features whereas the other
picture depicts the figures as demonic and ugly. However, you state
that Satan went so far down into Hell that he got his armour stripped
away. We dont even know that he had armour to begin with, and even if
he did, God could have stripped the armor away when he sent him down
to Hell rather than the effects of Hell itself. I like your point on
comparing sin's beauty to the attrativeness of sins to humans. to add
on to that point, it reminded me of the original sin of Eve. In
addition, contiuining on to your point that the three devils added in
the picture are playing with horns, these horns may symbolize the
stereotype we make that the Devil has two horns sticking out of its
head, "devil horns". In addition, in biblical times oil was poured out
of horns on top of people to name them as kings, the horn symbolizing
"forever". This can also symbolize the immortality and power of the
figures depicted. Besides for those few comments, I agree with
everything you said!
Jessi Lau
Apr 20, 2012, 3:59:46 PM4/20/12
to literary-surv...@googlegroups.com
Julia Altmann > Jessi Lau
I agree that I used the wrong term to describe Satan's wings in
Hayman's illustration. I meant it more as in these wings are similar
to those of birds. Like birds they are clearly made up of feathers,
are in same location (on the upper back) and they do in fact have the
same detailing. If you compare the parrot's wings in the photo
(http://www.pet-expo.com/trivia/birds/parrot-full-wing.jpg) to those
of Hayman's Satan, they are basically the same. When you said that
"Birds usually have much smaller...wings", I don't think you took in
to account a bird's body size. If you think about the wings of a
birds to that of it's body, it's about proportional, just as the wings
of Hayman's Satan is around proportional to Satan.
I also disagree with you on the weight of the wings, by the looks of
it, I think that they seem light. If they were too heavy, Satan
couldn't possibly be flying away from the Gate (as depicted).
As for the armor, I only said that because of the way it is depicted
in Hayman's Satan. I believe that it is fitting considering that
Satan was banished because of war with God. In war, there would be
weapons but also armor to protect ourselves. My interpretation of why
the 1688 edition's Satan doesn't have armor could have been flawed but
I am only relaying it to Hayman's satan. I totally agree with your
additions, I would have never realized if you didn't point it out!
I agree that I used the wrong term to describe Satan's wings in
Hayman's illustration. I meant it more as in these wings are similar
to those of birds. Like birds they are clearly made up of feathers,
are in same location (on the upper back) and they do in fact have the
same detailing. If you compare the parrot's wings in the photo
(http://www.pet-expo.com/trivia/birds/parrot-full-wing.jpg) to those
of Hayman's Satan, they are basically the same. When you said that
"Birds usually have much smaller...wings", I don't think you took in
to account a bird's body size. If you think about the wings of a
birds to that of it's body, it's about proportional, just as the wings
of Hayman's Satan is around proportional to Satan.
I also disagree with you on the weight of the wings, by the looks of
it, I think that they seem light. If they were too heavy, Satan
couldn't possibly be flying away from the Gate (as depicted).
As for the armor, I only said that because of the way it is depicted
in Hayman's Satan. I believe that it is fitting considering that
Satan was banished because of war with God. In war, there would be
weapons but also armor to protect ourselves. My interpretation of why
the 1688 edition's Satan doesn't have armor could have been flawed but
I am only relaying it to Hayman's satan. I totally agree with your
additions, I would have never realized if you didn't point it out!
Ronald Baxter
Apr 20, 2012, 7:48:20 PM4/20/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Julia, I'm glad you pointed out Hayman's emphasize on Sin's womanhood
and beauty. I believe that it is a crucial detail, because it was no
secret that women in that time were often seen temptresses and more
prone to sin than men were. Therefore, I feel that Sin was probably
described the way she was by Milton in order to reflect that belief.
Sin is meant to seem inviting at first, then we get stung, hence the
snake tail. The 1688 Edition's version of Sin fails to accurately
depict her becuase most people (I hope) would not find her seductive,
and would therefore avoid Sin. Bottom line on the matter, like I said
in an earlier comment, I feel that Hayman's illustration is much more
accurate depiction of Milton's text.
I agree with your comments on Satan as well and for the most part
Death. I imagine though that the reason Death is depicted differently
in the illustrations thn how he was described in the text was because
most people would probably been confused by what the black shadow-like
thing in the picture was. So, I think they both decided to use a
skeleton-like figure instead because that is the most obvious visual
associated with Death.
P.S. As for the wing debate I would argue that Satan's wings in the
1688 Edition are more like those of a bat than a bird.
and beauty. I believe that it is a crucial detail, because it was no
secret that women in that time were often seen temptresses and more
prone to sin than men were. Therefore, I feel that Sin was probably
described the way she was by Milton in order to reflect that belief.
Sin is meant to seem inviting at first, then we get stung, hence the
snake tail. The 1688 Edition's version of Sin fails to accurately
depict her becuase most people (I hope) would not find her seductive,
and would therefore avoid Sin. Bottom line on the matter, like I said
in an earlier comment, I feel that Hayman's illustration is much more
accurate depiction of Milton's text.
I agree with your comments on Satan as well and for the most part
Death. I imagine though that the reason Death is depicted differently
in the illustrations thn how he was described in the text was because
most people would probably been confused by what the black shadow-like
thing in the picture was. So, I think they both decided to use a
skeleton-like figure instead because that is the most obvious visual
associated with Death.
P.S. As for the wing debate I would argue that Satan's wings in the
1688 Edition are more like those of a bat than a bird.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages