Milton Group 1: Élaine Tat, Xu Zhang, Yasmeen Khan, Sophie Watts, Victoria Sayko
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William Shakespeare
Apr 10, 2012, 9:44:24 PM4/10/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
To illustrate a written text is to offer an interpretation of it.
Through this forum, consider how one or both of the two illustrations
below read Milton’s poem. Your first post, which may be independent
of or in dialogue with another student’s post, is due on Sunday April
15th at midnight. Your second post, which must be in dialogue with
another post, is due on Friday April 20th at midnight. Additional
posts are welcome! Posts that do not satisfactorily meet assignment
criteria and/or are put up after the deadlines will receive a zero.
Please be respectful of your classmates – do not post anything that is
offensive or insensitive. When disagreeing with someone else, be
courteous and keep your comments focused on the other students’
writing/ideas.
The illustrations (http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/
illlustration/index.html#)
- John Martin Pic #1: “Book I.44: The Fall of the Rebel Angels”
- Gustave Dore Pic #1: “‘Him the Almighty Power | Hurled headlong
flaming from the ethereal sky’ (I.44-45)”
Here are some questions that you might consider:
- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from the poem?
- What additions do the illustrations make to the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?
- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?
In answering questions like those above, you might consider one or
more of the following topics:
- Characterization, both in terms of individuals and relationships
between individuals
- Setting (i.e. Hell as a place)
- Plot
- Sexuality
- Gender
- Morality
- Pleasure/pain
- Strength
- Power
- Evocations of specific cultural/historical moments
- Anthropomorphism (i.e. depicting the non-human as human)
- Theology
- England prior to the poem’s composition: politics, war, social
structure, etc.
- Formal elements: style, use of light and darkness, degree of
realism, spatial organization, closeness/distance, the absence of
colour, the use of colour, etc.
Through this forum, consider how one or both of the two illustrations
below read Milton’s poem. Your first post, which may be independent
of or in dialogue with another student’s post, is due on Sunday April
15th at midnight. Your second post, which must be in dialogue with
another post, is due on Friday April 20th at midnight. Additional
posts are welcome! Posts that do not satisfactorily meet assignment
criteria and/or are put up after the deadlines will receive a zero.
Please be respectful of your classmates – do not post anything that is
offensive or insensitive. When disagreeing with someone else, be
courteous and keep your comments focused on the other students’
writing/ideas.
The illustrations (http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/
illlustration/index.html#)
- John Martin Pic #1: “Book I.44: The Fall of the Rebel Angels”
- Gustave Dore Pic #1: “‘Him the Almighty Power | Hurled headlong
flaming from the ethereal sky’ (I.44-45)”
Here are some questions that you might consider:
- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from the poem?
- What additions do the illustrations make to the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?
- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?
In answering questions like those above, you might consider one or
more of the following topics:
- Characterization, both in terms of individuals and relationships
between individuals
- Setting (i.e. Hell as a place)
- Plot
- Sexuality
- Gender
- Morality
- Pleasure/pain
- Strength
- Power
- Evocations of specific cultural/historical moments
- Anthropomorphism (i.e. depicting the non-human as human)
- Theology
- England prior to the poem’s composition: politics, war, social
structure, etc.
- Formal elements: style, use of light and darkness, degree of
realism, spatial organization, closeness/distance, the absence of
colour, the use of colour, etc.
Sophie Watts
Apr 12, 2012, 4:08:09 PM4/12/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Both of these pictures show figures literally falling from a bright
heavenly realm into a darker devilish abyss. They show the despair
experienced by those falling and the futility of their attempt to
regain God's grace. The picture by martin shows Satan alone where as
Dore's shows a plethora of other fallen beings being damned along with
him. This is significant because the depiction of Satan falling alone
implies that he and he alone caused his destruction. However, when
many other beings are falling along with the devil it depicts more of
a communal revolt. This significantly changes the story depending
whether Satan acted alone or if he was backed by a legion of
minions.
On Apr 10, 9:44 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
heavenly realm into a darker devilish abyss. They show the despair
experienced by those falling and the futility of their attempt to
regain God's grace. The picture by martin shows Satan alone where as
Dore's shows a plethora of other fallen beings being damned along with
him. This is significant because the depiction of Satan falling alone
implies that he and he alone caused his destruction. However, when
many other beings are falling along with the devil it depicts more of
a communal revolt. This significantly changes the story depending
whether Satan acted alone or if he was backed by a legion of
minions.
On Apr 10, 9:44 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Xu Zhang
Apr 14, 2012, 12:57:51 AM4/14/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Both of these pictures depict the descending of a character into Hell.
However, Martin’s picture illustrates its subject matter, Satan, as a
vulnerable creature who involuntarily falls into the dark whereas Dore
depicts his picture’s subject matter, God, as a powerful and glorious
being who is able to illuminate the bottomless darkness. Unlike the
poem, Satan is not depicted as a proud and daring character on these
pictures. His body seems unbalanced, emphasizing his loss of control
over his movements; thus to accentuate the power of God, who seems to
be in perfect equilibrium and ascends steadily from Heaven.
Furthermore, Hell is not depicted as a place where “dwell in
adamantine chains and penal fire” (47-48) on these pictures, its
depiction is simplified by both artists to a dark hollow space.
Thereby, the brightness of Heaven is accentuated.
However, Martin’s picture illustrates its subject matter, Satan, as a
vulnerable creature who involuntarily falls into the dark whereas Dore
depicts his picture’s subject matter, God, as a powerful and glorious
being who is able to illuminate the bottomless darkness. Unlike the
poem, Satan is not depicted as a proud and daring character on these
pictures. His body seems unbalanced, emphasizing his loss of control
over his movements; thus to accentuate the power of God, who seems to
be in perfect equilibrium and ascends steadily from Heaven.
Furthermore, Hell is not depicted as a place where “dwell in
adamantine chains and penal fire” (47-48) on these pictures, its
depiction is simplified by both artists to a dark hollow space.
Thereby, the brightness of Heaven is accentuated.
victoria sayko :)
Apr 15, 2012, 10:05:44 PM4/15/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
Both pictures, as the others said, depict Satan falling from heaven.
However, Gustave Dore illustration depicts Satan and his followers
with wings. This makes it more realistic to the story because the
artist really captures the idea that they are fallen angels.
Furthermore, in this illustration it shows that there was a battle and
that Satan and his army got sent down to hell by the other angels and
God. In John Martin’s illustration, Satan looks much weaker than he
does in Dore’s. There is nothing exciting or epic about him. It
doesn’t match with the image we receive while reading the poem,
therefore I find that it is doesn’t fulfill our expectations about
this character.
However, Gustave Dore illustration depicts Satan and his followers
with wings. This makes it more realistic to the story because the
artist really captures the idea that they are fallen angels.
Furthermore, in this illustration it shows that there was a battle and
that Satan and his army got sent down to hell by the other angels and
God. In John Martin’s illustration, Satan looks much weaker than he
does in Dore’s. There is nothing exciting or epic about him. It
doesn’t match with the image we receive while reading the poem,
therefore I find that it is doesn’t fulfill our expectations about
this character.
Sophie Watts
Apr 19, 2012, 3:46:39 PM4/19/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
This is very true, the vulnerability of satin is very visibul in
Martin's picture much more than in dores. however. i feel as though
satan may still look in control as he is falling. this might be
disguised by the way he is depicted floating but his face still
composed.
Martin's picture much more than in dores. however. i feel as though
satan may still look in control as he is falling. this might be
disguised by the way he is depicted floating but his face still
composed.
Xu Zhang
Apr 20, 2012, 6:06:00 PM4/20/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I agree with your comment. Dore's depiction of many revolting angels
together indeed emphasizes the intensiveness of the revolt; it shows
that a large population is participating in the revolt. However, those
rebel angels are not really backing Satan up; God is depicted as the
most powerful character in this picture. All of those rebels seem to
be overpowered by God and the light of Heaven. Thus, it accentuates
the power of God rather than Satan being supported and having backups.
together indeed emphasizes the intensiveness of the revolt; it shows
that a large population is participating in the revolt. However, those
rebel angels are not really backing Satan up; God is depicted as the
most powerful character in this picture. All of those rebels seem to
be overpowered by God and the light of Heaven. Thus, it accentuates
the power of God rather than Satan being supported and having backups.
victoria sayko :)
Apr 20, 2012, 6:33:22 PM4/20/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I don' t agree with the idea that Satan is depicted alone in Martin's
picture because if you look closely you can see his followers in
the background. Satin of course is the most visible to show his
supperity over his minion, but they are there nevertheless there to
show that satan is responsible for (or can influence) others downfalls
as well for his own. This is important because it shows that he can
also bring the downfall of human by making them sin, therefore denying
them access to heaven like he did for his followers.
> > colour, the use of colour, etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
picture because if you look closely you can see his followers in
the background. Satin of course is the most visible to show his
supperity over his minion, but they are there nevertheless there to
show that satan is responsible for (or can influence) others downfalls
as well for his own. This is important because it shows that he can
also bring the downfall of human by making them sin, therefore denying
them access to heaven like he did for his followers.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Elaine Tat
Apr 20, 2012, 6:36:03 PM4/20/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
I agree with you Victoria on the fact that Dore's depiction of Satan
and the fallen angels is more true to Milton's text because he
actually illustrates the scene as described in Paradise Lost. However,
I personally think that Martin's version is more interesting since he
is actually forwarding his own interpretation rather than just drawing
images to suit Milton's exact words. By giving Satan and the Angels a
more human like appearance, Martin is emphasizing the relation between
humans and the fallen angels, thus Marting warning the viewers about
their possible fate.
On Apr 15, 10:05 pm, "victoria sayko :)" <victoriasa...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
and the fallen angels is more true to Milton's text because he
actually illustrates the scene as described in Paradise Lost. However,
I personally think that Martin's version is more interesting since he
is actually forwarding his own interpretation rather than just drawing
images to suit Milton's exact words. By giving Satan and the Angels a
more human like appearance, Martin is emphasizing the relation between
humans and the fallen angels, thus Marting warning the viewers about
their possible fate.
On Apr 15, 10:05 pm, "victoria sayko :)" <victoriasa...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
YasmeenKhan
Apr 20, 2012, 11:41:16 PM4/20/12
to Literary Survey Section 73
While I agree that Dore depicts Satan and his followers how they are
explained in the book as angels, I find that because they have wings,
the picture does not carry the impending doom that John Martin's does.
It seems weird for characters with wings to be stuck in hell when they
could simply fly away whereas Martin's depiction of this scene doesn't
emphasize their wings as much and as a result gives a stronger
sentiment of doom in my opinion.
explained in the book as angels, I find that because they have wings,
the picture does not carry the impending doom that John Martin's does.
It seems weird for characters with wings to be stuck in hell when they
could simply fly away whereas Martin's depiction of this scene doesn't
emphasize their wings as much and as a result gives a stronger
sentiment of doom in my opinion.
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