Milton Group 7: Spiro Xiradakis, Mark Tartamella, Ryan McHugh, Alexandra Bélanger, Kevin Hua

[William Shakespeare]

To illustrate a written text is to offer an interpretation of it.
Through this forum, consider how one or both of the two illustrations
below read Milton’s poem. Your first post, which may be independent
of or in dialogue with another student’s post, is due on Sunday April
15th at midnight. Your second post, which must be in dialogue with
another post, is due on Friday April 20th at midnight. Additional
posts are welcome! Posts that do not satisfactorily meet assignment
criteria and/or are put up after the deadlines will receive a zero.
Please be respectful of your classmates – do not post anything that is
offensive or insensitive. When disagreeing with someone else, be
courteous and keep your comments focused on the other students’
writing/ideas.

The illustrations (http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvisible/
illlustration/index.html#)
- John Martin Pic #5: “Book II.1: Satan on his Throne”
- Gustave Dore Pic #6: “’High on a throne of a royal state, which far
| Outshone the wealth of Ormus and of Ind’ (II.1-2)”

Here are some questions that you might consider:
- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from the poem?
- What additions do the illustrations make to the poem?
- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?
- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?

In answering questions like those above, you might consider one or
more of the following topics:
- Characterization, both in terms of individuals and relationships
between individuals
- Setting (i.e. Hell as a place)
- Plot
- Sexuality
- Gender
- Morality
- Pleasure/pain
- Strength
- Power
- Evocations of specific cultural/historical moments
- Anthropomorphism (i.e. depicting the non-human as human)
- Theology
- England prior to the poem’s composition: politics, war, social
structure, etc.
- Formal elements: style, use of light and darkness, degree of
realism, spatial organization, closeness/distance, the absence of
colour, the use of colour, etc.

[Alexandra Belanger]

- What do the illustrations emphasize/de-emphasize in the poem?

Both images show Satan as the omnipotent figure and emphasize his
power by physically placing him higher than the rest of the devils and
shining a light on him, to direct the viewer’s attention to him.
Image #6 clearly emphasizes the interactions and discussions between
the devils and Satan. However, image #5 simply shows Satan in the
center, high above the rest, with faint figures depicted in the
background. In this image, there is no emphasis on the other fallen
angels expressing any ideas and views about the situation in hell.

- How do the illustrations differ from each other and what is the
significance of those differences?

Illustration #5 demonstrates Satan in the center, higher above
everyone else and being the primary focus of the picture. He is the
figure that is seen most clearly and rises above the rest. He is
portrayed as a god, like Zeus on his throne; muscular, strong and
secure. The scene in this picture portrays hell as an organized area
(people seated all in their seats) where Satan is a clear leader above
the rest. Hell as I had imagined with disorder and destruction (with
fire and angry devils) is not shown in this picture. There is also
light from above, shining on Satan, which directs the viewer’s
attention on him, high in the center. Also, the scene looks like it
takes place in a modern day arena/stadium, with rows and isles of
devils seated all around watching a show (Satan).
In contrast, picture #6 is shown in a more steryotypical depiction of
hell, with clouds of smoke, fallen angels scattered and not much
control or order. As seen in this picture, the devils are all
standing, weapons in hand, ready to battle (they are not seated and
controlled like the devils looked like in the previous picture). In
addition, Satan is portrayed as being higher than everyone else, with
the light focused on him (showing he is most important) however,
unlike the picture #5, Satan is placed in the background and other
fallen angels are depicted in the foreground with greater detail and
emphasis on their presence as well as Satan’s (unlike picture #5 where
Satan was clearly depicted, with small shadows and blurs of devils in
the background).

The significance of the differences in the picture is that of Satan’s
role and the role of the other devils. In picture #5, Satan is
depicted as being the ultimate ruler, not giving a chance for others
to speak (other angels are hidden in the background, hidden by Satan’s
power and rule). However, in picture #6, more of a connection between
the devils and Satan are depicted. Although Satan is still higher and
focus is directed to him, this picture shows a scene that is more
democratic, depicting features of the other devils and placing them on
a closer level with Satan.

- What do you think about the appropriateness of each illustration as
a companion to the poem? Is one illustration more appropriate than
the other? Why?

Although I think that illustration #6 is a better portrayal of hell
(with the smoke and all the angry angels), the meaning behind
illustration #5 is more appropriate to the poem. As we discussed in
class, although Satan allowed many of the other angels to state their
opinions regarding their situation in hell, he had rigged the
democracy so that Beelzebub would speak at the end to influence the
other devils on their decisions. Although image #6 demonstrates the
scene in a way I had pictured it, image #5 clearly shows Satan being
the central figure and most powerful of all the fallen angels. It
emphasizes that Satan has the power over all Hell and in the end, he
will be the one to make the final decision and no one else can
influence him.


On Apr 10, 9:46 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Spiro Xiradakis]

I would like to add to your point of how it emphasizes his power. In
both pictures we clearly see Satan sitting on his thrown, as you said
in #5 of them he is more elevated than another. The fact that he is
elevated could also show how no one could possible obtain his power,
no one can reach the level that he is at. While in the #6 we see
demons coming close to his position but still not being able to be on
the step that Satan is on. Also in picture #5 we see that he has a
lot more followers than picture # 6. Does this mean he has more power
in picture # 5 than in picture # 6? or could it be that in picture #5
it was a later period in history and more people were turned into
demons.

We do see in both pictures that Satan is practically God like. He is
worshiped by many and has an abundance of followers. Yet in #6 on the
bottom right corner we see 2-3 demons looking as though they are not
interested in what Satan has to say. We see one sitting down and the
other two talking to each other. This further backs up your point by
stating that hell is a very disorganized place and begs the question
is Satan really in control of everyone in hell. While in picture #5 we
see the crowds and crowds of demons sitting down listening to what
Satan has to say. Yet again the question is he really in total
control. I say this because the crowd doesn't really have a reaction
to the all powerful king. They all seem like they are not really into
what he has to say. It is like they are their because they have to be
and their not there support him. In both pictures he got demons to
come and hear him speak but in both pictures there are signs of demons
that are bored. Now if Satan is in total control shouldn't he have
everyone on your side. Also if Satan in total control doesn't that
mean the underworld shouldn't be in chaos because there is an
"ultimate ruler" who should be controlling everything.Maybe I'm wrong
because Satan himself is a very chaotic character and maybe his
"order" is chaos.

To conclude I agree with you completely and just wanted to add onto
your points which were highly detailed and well thought out.

[Mark Tartamella]

First off I'd like to state "kitchen sink" because that's probably all
that hasn't been said yet.

I completely agree with your ideas about Hell being disorganized and
how this is contradicted in the images (especially John Martin's). I
also agree on your observations about Satan clearly being the head
honcho in both of the illustrations, however I would like to add some
observations of my own, if I may.

Firstly, in #5 the spatial openness/grandeur of Hell is really
emphasized in addition to the fact that Satan himself is emphasized in
the same way. There is a lot of empty space in the foreground and
Satan is placed in the middleground, with obviously the faded minions
in the background (as you said). This effectively conveys Hell as an
extremely open and sort of bare place. This is totally not the case in
#6, as the three components of the illustration are much closer
together and therefore convey much smaller, almost claustrophobic
spatial organization.

Also, I believe the fact that Satan is conveyed in light is a huge
issue as well. Being below the Earth, in Hell, the problem quickly
arises (to the artist of course) of how to acquire a light source,
however inconspicuous it might be. #5, being completely devoid of any
hellish sort of fire, nails it with the subtle chandeliers high above.
The light itself is quite hazy (or is my resolution bad?) which might
still convey the eerie and unclear nature of Hell. This is also a way
of gathering the light on the central figure (Satan) while still
depicting the blackness underneath (as the light does not travel that
far, conveying the grandeur of the setting once again). #6 leaves it
up to the viewer, as there is the presence of smoke which might or
might not indicate a light source/fire outside the confines of the
image. Nonetheless, in this particular setting light should definitely
be high up on the list of things to "figure out" so to speak.

I must disagree with you when you say that both images show Satan as
the omnipotent figure. This is definitely the case for #5 but in #6 it
seems that his minions are on equal ground. This is in terms of
placement as well as the fact that Satan does not have any
distinguishing features. When looking at Satan, I had to double-check
to see if maybe the center figure was just another one of his
identical looking minions.

I would also like to add that, although #5 does in fact look like a
modern-day arena, I think that #6 is not that stereotypical because it
borrows heavily from Classical Greek mythology. The Corinthian columns
and the long staircase especially are indicative of Mount Olympus (in
my opinion). The only things distinguishing it from actually being
Mount Olympus is probably the absence of color in the illustration and
the smoke (but then again, they could be cool looking clouds!)

Altogether I concur completely with your other statements and I too
believe that #6 is a better representation of Hell. However, I believe
that #5 has a better representation of Satan, just because he's more
badass and distinguishable.

[Kevin Hua]

Well.... This doesn't really leave all that much more to say really..
I agree with you completely that Satan is definitely emphasized as the
ultimate power in both 6 and 5. In the 5 picture, the layout is almost
reminiscent of a coliseum style, and Satan is definitely the center of
attention. Perhaps the idea of chaotic wasn't quite attached to hell,
or perhaps not in the same way, in 5 since everything seems so very
organized. Definitely not how I would picture hell at all! 6
corresponds a lot more to my own mental picture I had when I read the
passages - a jumbled and chaotic mess of devils all sort of talking
and moving and bustling and shoving. In both of the images, we see
some very nice, ornate columns. I feel though that although the 5
seems to be emphasizing satans absolute control much more, 6 depicts
an extremely ornate throne area, the back or wall behind him extending
far above himself. The chandeliers in 5 seem to make the picture seem
much more modern than the 6, which seems to me as very old looking,
even archaic.
Like you said though, 5 is more like satan is an absolute monarch or
God, whereas 6 he's much more social and interacting with the other
devils one on one. The 6 seems to me to characterize Satan as a more
understanding and kind figure, taking the time to listen to his fellow
devils request, unlike in 5 where he seems so aloof. ive always
pictured satan as more of the type in image 6, because being such a
sweet talker and liar, ive always seen satan as the type who would go
out of his way to talk to each person and to subvert them to his power
with his promises and words.
In our class discussions, we said that he set things up with Beelzebub
so that he would be the last and that satan would jump in and support
him and all. Unfortunately, i cant see that in the image 5. He seems
to be far far too aloof in the proceedings. Image 6 would be much
better because, like you said, he is much closer to all the other
devils and is being actually sociable.
To conclude, i agree with everything you said. Just wanted to input my
opinion on some of the points and such.

On Apr 11, 6:36 pm, Alexandra Belanger <abelang...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Ryan McHugh]

The image of Satan sitting on his throne clear indicates the power and
statues he has over the other fallen angels. This characterizes his
personality as one that is egotistical which is also represented in
the poem when the readers discover that Satan's never intended to
carry out the suggestions of the other fallen angels on how to deal
with their current situation, instead he went with what he thought
would benefit him best. In comparison the second photo also shows the
dominance that Satan has over the other fallen angels, however this
one better illustrates the devotion that the fallen angels have to
Satan.

The illustrations both are able to further create the vision that was
written in the poem by being able to visual show the events that
unfold in the poem and the real intensity as well gloom of the
situation.

On Apr 10, 9:46 pm, William Shakespeare <andrewelbur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[Alexandra Belanger]

I see your point as to why Satan can not clearly be distinguished from
the other fallen angels in #6, as not much detail was used to
emphasize his power and significance. To add on to this observation
however, I realized that much detail was put into the architectural
structure and surroundings, in comparison to #5, in which detail is
mainly focused on Satan in the center. As you mentioned in image #6,
Corinthian columns are depicted as well as an intricate architectural
wall behind Satan. The cloud of smoke also demonstrates the use of
detail, with the many shades of grey used to make it look three
dimensional and more realistic. Instead of focusing on the figures,
the artist decided to place an emphasis on the surrounding scene
containing the figures.

On Apr 11, 9:49 pm, Mark Tartamella <max_wol...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Mark Tartamella]

I totally agree with when you say that Satan is clearly in power in
picture 5 because of his spatial positioning, however when looking at
his body language it is indicative that although he is in power, it is
not demonstrated that he has control over his minions. From observing
his right hand (raised over his head) and his left leg (extended) it
seems almost as if he is trying to quell the commotion going on, as
well as attempting to stand up, probably to remind his peeps who's
boss. This is still egotistical however and I agree with your comment
there.

I also agree with you when you state that in picture 6 his minions
have devotion to him. To add, their erratic placement around the
picture is probably indicative of an unorganized bunch of individuals.
So maybe they really need Satan, a leader who can show them what the
HELL they're doing, since they don't really know themselves. (see what
I did there?)

[Spiro Xiradakis]

i have to disagree with you when you state that his minions have
devotion to him. Firstly, we can clearly see them running around and
in total chaos in picture #6. The minions and Satan love chaos and
destruction. Therefore, if the minions love chaos wouldn't they want
to cause a ruckus up in heaven. They would want to cause chaos
anywhere even if Satan was not present. It looks as if Satan was the
one that "broke the ice". The minions wanted to attack heaven but none
of them really wanted to start it because they wouldn't want to
imagine the worse punishment. Also, you had just stated that " it is
not demonstrated that he has control over his minions"(Tartamella
Paragraph 1) but in paragraph two you stated a leader who can show

them what the HELL they're doing, since they don't really know

themselves.`` (Tartamella). These two statements contradict themselves
because at first you stated he has no control over them but in a
separate paragraph you state that the minions need Satan to control
them. Therefore, if they need someone who control them, and Satan cant
control them, then shouldn't they follow someone else who can control
them.

I would also have to disagree with you Alexandra. Looking at picture
#6 we could see that he put detail in both the surrounding scene and
the minions. Just that the surrounding is so much larger that it is
easier for our eyes to see. If you look closely you could see that
every minion has its own personality. Which could mean that he focused
more on defining each minion. Also their wings are also very detailed,
if you look very closely again you can see that he took his time to
draw feathers. Again, even though he makes larger scenery than the
actual demons could it could be interpreted another way. I know we
aren't suppose to use opinions but i feel as if the artist is trying
to portray the hell as a whole instead of focusing on one specific
thing.

[Kevin Hua]

I disagree, in part, with your disagreement Spiro! I make the claim
that the minions of Satan do have devotion to him. Although yes, we
can see them running around fairly chaotically in picture #6, I will
argue that since Satan is considered the father of Sin and Leader of
Chaos (The father of Sin is literal in this story), so when the
minions seemingly in utter disarray or disrespect, I see this as
merely there unique way of displaying devotion to the effective "God"
of disarray. To be nice and to show love and support... that would be
in complete opposition to the idea of Hell, and would be more
reminiscent of Heaven! I think Satan is much more though than simply
the one who "broke the ice." Sure, he was the first to protest and
pretty much awakened and fed the displeasure other angels have be
harboring, but a feat of that caliber can only done with someone
especially gifted with a sweet tongue. Since Satan is alternatively
referred to as the Father of Lies, and since no new angels are
actually being made, Satan would be the only possible person for the
job!