Hello? and a quick question
Kenji Schwarz
It's been weeks since I heard anything from CONLANG... are we still here?
I have a quick question in search of a quick answer, which I thought the
list might be able to provide me quickly:
What's an "active" system of marking participants? Accusative, ergative,
and three-way systems I understand (S+A : O, A : S+O, S : A : O), but how
do "active" systems lump the categories together? I know it involves
distinguishing between active and patientive subjects in intransitive
verbs, but I don't get how that combines with the objects and agents of
transitive verbs.
Can someone set me straight on this?
Kenji Schwarz
ke...@accessone.com
Danny Wier
Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>It's been weeks since I heard anything from CONLANG... are we still
here?
We are still here, very much alive. Could be your e-mail server having
the hacks.
>I have a quick question in search of a quick answer, which I thought
the
>list might be able to provide me quickly:
>
>What's an "active" system of marking participants? Accusative,
ergative,
>and three-way systems I understand (S+A : O, A : S+O, S : A : O), but
how
>do "active" systems lump the categories together? I know it involves
>distinguishing between active and patientive subjects in intransitive
>verbs, but I don't get how that combines with the objects and agents of
>transitive verbs.
>From what I've read on the net, an active system could either be one
that doesn't mark nominative-accusative or ergative-absolutive, but
merely actor-patient relationships. But it could be something in which
has subject as actor, subject as patient, object as actor, and object as
patient as four distinct cases.
In other words, I'm probably as lost as you are and need the same
question answered myself.
Danny
Jim Grossmann
> >From what I've read on the net, an active system could either be one
> that doesn't mark nominative-accusative or ergative-absolutive, but
> merely actor-patient relationships. But it could be something in which
> has subject as actor, subject as patient, object as actor, and object as
> patient as four distinct cases.
>
> In other words, I'm probably as lost as you are and need the same
> question answered myself.
JG: This is pretty much what I've heard: languages can be arranged on
continua, some of
whose points are these: [I'm no linguist; take following with grain of
salt.]
1. PROTOTYPICAL A.K.A. SYNTACTIC MARKING:
Arguments of the verb are marked as if they were constituents of some
prototypical
sentence-structure, regardless of whether the semantic relationships
between the verb and
the arguments are reflected in the prototypical sentence structure. Which
sentence structure
is prototypical seems to depend on the verb.
1a. nominative-accusative marking: in natlangs, done with either word
order
or morphology.
prototypical pattern: noun phrase marked as agent + verb
Which is not only used for these kinds of sentences ....
The boy ate.
The girl drank.
... but also for these kind ...
The door opened.
The table burned.
In these last two examples, "the door" and "the table" stand for
patients, but
are marked as if they were agents so that they fit into the prototypical
sentence structure shown above.
In nom/acc systems, the subject of an intransitive verb and the subject
of
a transitive verb get the same marking (e.g. nominative case),
while the object is marked differently (e.g. with accusative case).
Nominatives are often the bare stems.
1b. ergative-absolutive marking: In natlangs, done with morphology.
prototypical pattern: noun phrase marked as patient + verb
Which is used not only for these kinds of sentences ...
The door opened.
The table burned.
.... but also for these kind ...
The boy ate.
The girl drank.
In the last two examples, "the boy" and "the girl" stand for agents, but
get marked as if they were patients so that they fit into the second
prototypical sentence pattern shown above.
In ergative/absolutive systems, the subject of an intransitive verb gets
marked
just like the object of a transitive verb (absolutive), while the subject
of the
transitive verb gets marked differently (ergative). Absolutives are
often the
bare stem.
2. SEMANTIC A.K.A. DIRECT MARKING: Agents are marked as agents;
patients are marked as patients, and so on.
The boy drank. boy+agent drank
The boy drank the juice. boy + agent drank juice+patient
The table burned. table+patient burned
Jim